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What's wrong with Hag?
I've been watching a lot of Michi's videos and frankly, I enjoy it. It's nice to see unused perks like MYC, ToT, Dark Devotion, Third Seal, and even Cruel Limits being actually viable with Hag. All she needs is Corrupt intervention and she's good to go.
And yet so many people seem to want Hag nerfed, they want instant teleport hits removed, they want Rusty Shackles gone (Which I guess I can understand), they want Mint Rag nerfed and many other nerfs to completely butcher her until she's as bad as Trapper.
I can understand the frustration with her since she is a teleporting killer like Nurse but come on! It takes 0 skill to play Hag?! Freddy I can understand, Spirit I can somehow understand but why Hag! If your trap placement is terrible, you won't be able to use your power and you're stuck as a 110% killer. Basement Hag is the least skillful playstyle of hers and even then you can still do some nice mind games with it, unlike camping Bubba.
But most of all, I like Hag because she makes some perks work and she doesn't have to rely on Ruin Undying Tinkerer. Sort of like Demo, she can activate MYC and Devour Hope and still get the unhooker afterwards. Perks that give you short bursts of information or only work on certain locations like Bitter Murmur and Cruel Limits can also work on her.
Heck, things that Demo can't usually run because of his shred like Knock Out and Dark Devotion can work on Hag. Perks that rely on spreading damage like Third Seal and Blood Echo are pretty decent on her. As long that Corrupt Intervention is there, she can run whatever she wants and I like that. I get to take on 3 possibly unique perks and 1 uncommonly used one. Also before you say Hags that run Ruin Undying Tinkerer are boring, unless the Hag is running Mint Rag, Hag is terrible at scaring people off gens. Remember, she a 110% killer who is trap based.
TL;DR : Hag is great because she can give a variety to the game if the player chooses. That is the opposite of boring
Comments
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Yeah Hag is cool. Camping ones are annoying but Hag is cool. Been trying to get her down but I can't teleport fast enough. And it can be tricky for Hag if you lose a three gen.
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I'm not a fan of playing against Hag because of the particular playstyle that a lot of Hags choose - ya know the many traps around the hook type of Hags, which do lead to an unfun playing experience.
A friend of mine plays Hag perkless and addonless because he's a very good Hag player and playing against his Hag is a lot of fun, despite the fact that I always die. It's just that so many Hags do play in an unfun way.
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People don't like the Hag because she even If her power does not do damage or one shot or anything really super deadly..Is chaotic.
Case in point in a purple ranker match won with a No teleport build..Mainly on the fact People did not know how to react to It.
Hag is not played enough so a lot people do not know how to react to her. And throw massive fits because instead of trying to run away all over the map you gotta actually consider where she could have traps set up..and unlike the traper where you can use dumb luck or a teamate to escape a trap before he collects..The Hag If she wants to and is in range teleport to you and smack you.
Ironically, she is poping up more cause a thing people do now is just run armies upon armies of "Escape" perks..So, having a killer who can guard hooks without guarding them is a blessing.
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I guess I play hag a bit different.. Rusty Shacks/Mint Rag and I only use 1/2 traps playing for the long game. You get a guaranteed 3 gen no matter the distance of the gens.
Make Your Choice/Dragons Grip/Surveillance/Pop
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I like the concept of Hag and that she encourages a different playstyle: be careful when you run and watch out for the marks.
but the marks are fairly difficult to see and most Hags use them to proxy camp more efficiently and nothing more.
the best are those that literally draw traps around the hook until the surv reaches second stage and then insist of not camping. Like. I have kindred. I saw what you did the whole time. And guess what? I am accused of being a genrusher in these cases.
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I also like hag, and Michi. But she should get a small nerf because trapping the hook 9 times is boring for the survivors. I think both otz and michi suggested something about that (correct me if I'm wrong, at least)
When you hook someone, ALL traps that are within 8 meters of the hook get disabled, like when you burn them with a flashlight. It will kinda suck that the pallet that you've trapped at the start of the match will be loopable since the trap will be gone, but you can adjust the trap placement.
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I think if they reworked Rusty Shackles and removed the ability for Hag to spam traps around the hook people would be less annoyed by her.
I enjoy her, personally, both to play as and against. She’s not easy for a new killer to play since your instinct is to chase, so a lot of them resort to camping which is obviously very unfun.
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Personally, the only thing I don't like about Hag is that activating a trap forces your camera to look in its direction which often leads to me running back into the Hag and getting hit.
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That the gimmick of it tho.
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Ever since the tomb she has been more noticeable in various ranks. She shouldn't even be nerfed and her mint rag is a training wheels in my opinion. You can destroy traps though flashlight or crouching through them. Only time it annoying Is the camping hags. Then again that every killers.
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I can understand. Running to a regressing gen only to immediately get slapped is painful. It gets even worse when the Hag turns out was running ToT or Dragon's Grip.
Something I noticed is that because of how Corrupt Intervention works, the last gens you need to work on are usually spread far out (Furthest gens from the killer's spawn). If your team is coordinated or at the very least know the art spreading out, then you should be able to finish that last gen since without triggering any traps, Hag is a 110% killer.
That is if she's not using Mint Rag.
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Wait... People want hag nerfed? I thought the only real hag "nerf" was to deactivate traps around a hook while and a few seconds after an unhook. (That was in Otz's community patch)
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Imo? Naaah. She's the same as the Twins. Really dull playstyle. I remember using her for the challenges a couple of times and I could feel my sanity being slowly drained just running around the map drawing triangles then pressing Ctrl when I heard a notification and hitting a survivor, repeating until I somehow won with almost 0 effort. And as for playing against her, I hope you're a fan of not being chased and interacting with the killer in that way, because you won't be doing that against her.
I want her removed from the game so badly. Tbh I want every 110 killer gone for different reasons but Hag is my least favourite of the bunch. At least some people like her though and that's all that matters :))
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Ohtofu actually explains it pretty well. At least to me
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I think it was when a survivor gets unhooked not hooked.
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Change up your playstyle, change your load out, change your perks (I've given a lot examples in my post). Heck, try body-blocker Hag. You have so many options right in front of you. You have a choice to make Hag fun so have fun!
As for fighting her, it's all up to preference. Me, I like getting jumpscared and ending up with a variety of status effects I've never seen before and then wondering how the heck I got them.
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I don't really have those options because she's only level 10 lol and I played her with no perks while doing the challenges. I much prefer other killers so they're the ones I'm spending my points on. Not a fan of moving at 110% speed, the only 110 killer that I like is Deathslinger because he has a gun. If Hag had a gun, I might play her.
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Ouch, I'm sorry. Still, I advice that before you play Hag you level up Plague and Blight. Plague has Corrupt Intervention and Dark Devotion which work wonders on Hag (Since the latter already has Third Seal) and Blight because Undying and Dragon's Grip (And because he's very fun to play with or without add-ons and perks).
My favorite build while leveling up Hag (so that I could teach Ruin to my other killers) is Corrupt, Undying, Third Seal, and Dark Devotion. You general confusion build which would normally have ToT there.
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Always love seeing these discussions. Makes my day seeing a group of intelligent, amazing and sexy people come together to talk bad about Hag.
I typed this out earlier somewhere else so I'm just copying and pasting it here.
There generally are only a few types of Hag.
1. The really good Hags. These make every chase boring and unfun. You don't know where any traps are and just have to guess where they are most of the time.
2. 3 gen Hags. These are the ones who force a 3 gen and just camp it with all 10 traps. They hit you and leave repeatedly. The games last 20 minutes with no gameplay really at all.
3. Bad Hags. These are bad because once they down you they camp with 10 taps near the hook. People can't crouch in to save and they can only trade 9/10.
Here's a few extra bits.
- Scroll wheel Hags - they teleport that fast that they guarantee hit you everytime without you having time to counter it
- Add-ons - Mint Rag (teleport anytime you want and at any distance) and Rusty Shackles (you don't know when you set off a trap).
- Flashlights and Urban - without either of these the games are horrible. Relying on a terrible perk or a limited item to balance a killer is bad design in my mind.
I'm just soooooo happy that I have at least 1 friend to play this game with when I play survivor. Can't imagine the disease known as solo q survivor vs Hag..
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People don't like Hag because they can't do the same braindead looping they always do and change is hard so: "OMG HAG OP!"
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How convenient, that very comment you copy-pasted is one of the reasons I've made this thread. Now before we begin, I respect your opinion and I can understand why you think that way. Yes, I think Rusty Shackles is an annoying add-on. Yes I agree that Mint Rag is really amazing. Yes I agree that camping Hags should cease their existence.
But I don't agree with your hatred with scroll wheel Hags. Hag has problems with catching up that missing a teleport attack can mean the difference between getting a down and having an escape. Imagine if Nurse is fatigued BEFORE she lands that post-blink attack.
Good Hags, why are you angry at them? One of the things I like the most out of good players is that they have a wide variety of perk options. That's right, you don't have to deal with Ruin Undying Tinkerer every match! Instead I get a be exhausted, blind, and then killed by Devour Hope which feels a lot better than dying to NOED.
3-gen Hags are arguably annoying. I won't lie especially when somehow Ruin is still up. But I've said somewhere in this discussion that Corrupt Intervention works against them if they want to 3-gen at the endgame.
Flashlights are odd since at some point you could no longer sabotage bear traps. If you could manually get rid of traps by hand with a lengthy animation, then maybe it would be pretty nice. Makes it riskier, removes the need of a specific item, and makes it so the trap range trigger add-ons can be reworked.
That's it, my response to your comment. Feel free to respond however you wish.
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This exactly this. Same goes for deathslinger, nurse, spirit.
I main hag and most of what people are complaining about can be done on any other killers, camping bubba, just patrol 3 gens with doc, etc etc. A hag that drops ten traps around the one hook is not gonna achieve anything unless the survivors feed it just like any other camper. Yet somehow this problem is specific to her.
She really mixes up the game play and you have to be cautious and careful about unhooking and where you step, that's all it is. If you are going for boldness points against Hag you are doing it wrong.
Yeah many hags have the teleport mapped to mouse wheel because its her prime power, she ports and hits, the rest of the time she is so slow that unless you are stacking bloodlust you probably aren't getting much done. The nurse being stunned before she can swing is a great analogy here. Nothing worse then having a ping spikey night on hag, good luck hitting anything.
Her power shines with respect to killer reaction speed, you are hyper focused when you play hag as missing that port can be critical, also baiting with a port to have folks run back into you is a big part of it. She's is one of the killers that requires the most split second focus and response. Playing hag well is a meerkat level of alertness.
"But I want to run in a circle around that rock for 5 mins and why can't I just do that to every killer". Why don't we just delete all killers and have a white rectangle called 'generic bad guy' they just follow you around so can loop to your hearts content.
Let me tell you if you water down all the killers, you water down the game. Bring back the fear to DBD.
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Any killer can force a 3 gen by refusing to commit to a chase. This is not specific to Hag.
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Lisa is perfect swamp woman. Only love for hags here. 💜
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Can't remember the last time I saw a Hag. I've been playing probably 4-5 hours a day lately and haven't seen one.
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Funny thing is I forgot about something I also hate which is the fact your camera always turns towards her when you set off a trap. Makes camping even stronger. I don't hate this but I know a lot also hate bodyblocking Hag.
Scroll wheel Hag's just don't have any counter play imo. At least normal Hags you have a slight chance to spin her. Personally I wouldn't really compare it to the Nurse fatigue. I'd compare it more to facing a Deathslinger main or an average Deathslinger.
When it comes to perks they do have more variety I give them credit for that. I'd still say though the good ones normally still run Ruin, Undying, Monitor, STBFL or a handful of other meta perks. Good Hag's though just are crouch walking simulator since they place traps everywhere. I hate crouch walking (and urban evasion) so needed to crouch anytime I'm near a totem, gen, loop etc just is extremely boring. Then if she's comes near you when a trap is there you can't avoid setting it off and getting immediately hit.
On the topic of counters it makes no sense how she can be completely destroyed by a team of flashlight users or be really strong when their isn't any. Always felt like it's bad game design when your killer is that badly balanced. I feel like being able to manually disarm them would be nice or maybe they get destroyed after a certain amount of time.
This is a good discussion mate. Hope you see why I just really despise facing her. I never have fun vs her because even if she is useless and gets destroyed she'll get 1 hook and camp it with 10 traps.
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Instant teleport hits? I'm on console, what's that?
I get a nice 2 sec delay before I can even move after a teleport
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Hag is fine except for the camping component. All they need to do is just remove the ability for her to trap hooks and she's 100% balanced. A good hag can down survivors in seconds without much effort.
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I am currently working on a video where I am explaining how Hag should be changed (in my opinion) when a midchapter arrives that is centered around her. One part of that is the elimination of her campy playstyle I tried to solve with following mechanics:
- Like with Pyramid Head and Cages there will be also a system that checks if Hag stays close to a hooked survivor and this system will remove a hag trap in a 12m radius around this hook every 6 seconds if Hag stays inside that 12m.
- If a rescue happens and Hag is closer than 32m to the unhooked surv all traps in a 12m radius around the hook will vanish
This should ensure that Hags place one trap close to a hook at most and cannot use the traps to camp or proxy camp.
If she stays too close survs won't need to crouch away from hook, they only have to do so when Hag is more than 32m away during a resuce which is enough time to crouch and run away
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I personally just don't like hag because of her ability to camp so efficiently. Defending hooks is the best strategy for hag if you want to play her to her maximum potential.
The devs need to nerf her ability to camp, but to compensate, they need to buff something in her base kit as well. Hag should be unable to place traps within a 12-meter radius of the hooked survivor, and also any traps that were previously in that radius are washed away.
A good buff would possibly be to make her teleport slightly faster and/or can teleport from a slightly longer distance than in her current state. What survivor mains need to understand is that, when you nerf a killer, you need to address the main issue everyone has while still keeping her just as strong as she is, just in a different way.
Survivor mains that ask for killers like spirit, hag, freddy, etc. to be nerfed to the ground need to understand that they're not the only people playing the game, the killer players still need to have viable options otherwise it's an easy win for the survivors every single match, and no one wants that. Removing the issues while still keeping the killers just as viable will make the game healthy for both sides.
I'm a spirit main and I get the frustrations people have with her, but when they ask for nerfs, they don't want any buff in return. Having that kind of mentality proves that you don't have any sympathy for the other side. I am truly hoping that spirit gets a rework so her power is more interactive and fair, but still keeping her as strong as she is in her current state.
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I’m relieved that someone, even if it’s a mod, from BHVR acknowledges that Hag can be used in a very unfun way.
Yeah, technically every killer can be used in an unfun, frustrating way if the player chooses. But no one can make life as miserable for the survivors as Hag. She can make it quite impossible to get away from the hook after a save. Literally.
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Finally.
I’m glad there are finally others that echo my feelings on Hag.
I truly am flabbergasted that she has gone under the radar for so long with these add on passes and reworks.
Flashlights are simply far far far too strong against her, and I feel sorry for Hag players dealing with a team that always get rid of every trap. But then there is the polar opposite experience where if there are NO flashlights, a hook trapping Hag is impossible to deal with. It’s just a horrible experience just getting caught one time, because after that any escape attempt is pointless. I’m not after popularity points, so I don’t care about people’s thoughts on me doing this, but I just suicide on my first hook against Hags that just trap the hook, especially the basement.
Why should I bother? I already know what’s going to happen if I’m unhooked.
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If you see someone run in direction of trap you need to spam teleport button to teleport instantly and hit while survivor is confused. It only works while chase when you see someone about to trigger your trap. It doesn't work with random trap triggers because you don't have enough time to react. So I'm not sure if it only pc thing and impossible on console.
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I don't really your second idea. I get that 32 meters is the range when Devour and MYC activates but the problem is if that trait became basekit, there will be 2 problems.
1. If the Hag hooked a survivor near a gen, she won't be able to defend any generators near that hooked survivors and it'll encourage survivors to stall rescues until the last moment. It basically makes survivors camp each other.
2. If that trait became basekit, coordinated teams would know to loop the Hag within that range so that her traps would disappear. As an added pain, she won't be able to catch up once the unhook happens due to the range, her speed and lack of traps.
Personally reduce that disappearance range to 16 meters. That way Hag can still chase down the unhooker if her traps disappeared as well as reduce the amount of gens Hag can no longer defend if she were to hook someone nearby.
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I'm fine with Hag, I just feel that she shouldn't be able to spam traps on hooked survivor's.
People want Rusty Shackles nerf.., that's like asking to nerf Trappers traps because you didn't see it there
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She was the killer I mained for a long time. I played her back when she was like F tier where her teleport would stun lock her. She has always been under rated even then (though needed the changes for sure) and will always likely be so. I always played her web of traps more aggressive and surprising to end chases faster and get surprise hits or downs in spots people wouldn't think to worry. The thing about her though is I hate how most people play her. If I go off on someone is post game chat it's when I play against a Hag. 9/10 times they are the type to lay traps at the hook to either tunnel or/and use MYC for another down. There isn't much one can do.
Cause these are the options.
Option A - Run - Her traps go off. She teleports in and can down the unhooked person as they aren't protected by BT or can down the unhooker with MYC. As the other Survivor flees, she likely has other traps set up to take down that one as well. If not, she still got a trade in hooks.
Option B - Heal - A Felix attempted to do this to me in my recent vs Hag match. He had good intentions but guess who came shambling over before the heal could finish? Her. Guess who had to run and set off traps? Me. Guess who died not actually getting to play the match after getting caught once? Me.
Option C - Crouch Walk Away - Unless you got Urban Evasion, Hag will be sprinting back over and you're in the same boat as the above except MAYBE you got away from the trap at the hook in time before she is on you. Bad news is she is now chasing you and likely has the nearby pallets or windows trapped and gained distance on you while you crouched away from the trap. You're still boned and if the other Survivor takes the heat instead, MYC ends it still as a losing situation to the Survivor's.
Also Mint Rag is busted strong. Most people don't put the points and effort into her to realize Mint Rag basically makes her the Queen of area denial whether it's some gens or a hook. I still hate IH and old Prayer Beads like 1000x more, but that's cause they are a lot more common than Hag and Mint Rag. I rarely ran it cause it made things to easy, well except the original version where it was keybinded to space bar and going over a window, smashing a pallet, or picking up a survivor could take you across the map instead which was awkwardly hilarious at times.
Honestly the best option is to make it so she can't place traps near hooked Survivors and traps preexisting at a hook are despawned. I love the shambling monster lady, but I can't even remotely condone 99% of how Hags play her and abuse her camping and tunneling powers. It's also why I'd delete Leatherface's ability from the game. Like why does he exist as the ultimate camper?
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I think BHVR should delay a bit instant teleport + hit for Hag on PC and here is why:
- First - Console players won't (native without kb/m) have access to scrolling or macro Hag aka: instant tele + hit.
- Second - 3 gen strat is SO strong with Hag. (i'm soloq but even swf can't beat it sometimes)
- Third - Free camping hook ... well there is nothing to add here just broken.
- Forth - MYC this is so stupid insta tele with MYC i can't even tell anything about it.
And before someone says "Oh she is balanced ... just pay attention what is her plan or what is she doing" - Yeah i had a lot of matches versing Hags and even with OOO i can pop SOME traps and play around it sometimes but other times we must run from her and booom insta hit from a trap i didn't saw. The plan is always the same "3gen" if you can't manage insta + hit.
"So try pay attention and pop secure her traps" - Still 1 person off gens at 1 second place time trap cost ? Bruh.
PC Hags had this for 4 years and nothing were done yet. You still can mindgame with a trap on pallet for example and do good without insta.
Look at Trapper ... he is strong at loop break with trap ofc. Give him insta trap and would be broken af.
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When it comes to Mint Rag, my favorite analogy is "Imagine if bear traps doubled as Demo's portals while still retaining their previous use". Would that make Trapper amazing? Of course! He's a 115% killer who is trap based. Any extra mobility would be huge for him.
Problem is, Hag never needed that extra mobility in the first place. As long as her trap placement is correct, she'll be teleporting all over the map and that's the problem with Mint Rag. Once you're good at Hag, you won't need it anymore and you won't have to waste bloodpoints on them.
But I agree with camping Hags being annoying. I did say in one of my comments that they need to cease their existence or at the very least, do it less blatantly.
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About your first one, I don't play console DbD but have you ever tried binding the teleport button to the L3 joystick and using the directional buttons to move? I've never tried it but it should work like a scroll wheel Hag does (Teleport with the flick of a finger instead of the click of a button). You can still direct yourself with the R3 joystick, right?
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Applause. Well said.
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Camping and cheap jumpscares. Absolutely garbage to deal with.
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That don't mean she should be NERFED and I'm hoping you're not pushing for that. Just crouch
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She can defend gens still like every other killer
If she comes closer than 32m and a rescue happens she is close enough and does not need traps
Also if someone is running with hag around a hooked surv then there atleast 2 survs not doing gens.
I don't see any problem there
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I think any killer's power seems oppressive if the player is good/aggressive enough about using it. I like playing Hag and I'm generally okay going against Hag. There's an underrated counterplay, which is to run around chaotically and set off all the traps -- especially if she wasted a bunch of time putting all of them together.
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She's boring to play and miserable to play against
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I think the issue with basement Hag is that whether the Hag leaves the basement or not is irrelevant as that survivor is already dead the moment they're on that hook. Especially since there are traps you can place which can't be destroyed with a flashlight as they'll be automatically triggered. This means that if the Hag leaves the basement they can play territorally to camp them to death AND defend their 3 gen. 9 times out of 10 unhooking in that situation will just lead to a trade. This is especially problematic as with Agitation, Hag can usually corral people into her web and eventually get her basement hook. At which point that's just gg unless the survivors are really coordinated (Which can't be expected from solo que). I think that's the reason she's disliked. She encourages a very tunnelly/campy playstyle AND also has a downright insane chase power when set up well. Which isn't very hard, I used to play Hag a lot and at least 3K'd like 90% of my games by being territorial.
If a Hag sets up in an area and the survivor goes there, they go down. The counterplay there is to just know where she set up (Which, again, cannot be expected of solo's). You could argue that's the same with Trapper, here's the thing though. Trapper has to collect his power and thus his set up takes substantially longer. Hag can just set up a trap, wherever and whenever she wants. Her traps are capped at 10 but it's not like Demo where if you place all your traps then you can't place another. There is no consequence for just placing a trap at every loop you come across which means that even a bad player can excel if they just so happened to set up well. People don't want braindead looping but what they do want is viable counterplay. You can't exactly flashlight the trap midchase so if you go into her web of traps then you're dead, especially if basement is nearby.
People complain about Deathslinger but not Huntress. Why is that? I'd argue it's because there's actual counterplay with Huntress. She telegraphs by audio and visual cues when she pulls up her hatchets so survivors know when to try and dodge. With Deathslinger there is no audio cue and on top of that, he can instantly shoot after ADSing or cancel the ADS and M1 normally. This means that you either have to be constantly dodging which will get you hit if he cancels his power, hold forward and hope he misses which will get you hit if he commits to the shot or constantly keep looking back whilst simultaneously not bumping into anything. Even if you do that last one, if you bump into something you'll get hit, if he fakes the shot by ADSing and then cancelling it then you get hit and even if he commits to the shot you can still be hit if he makes the correct read. It's very stressful and unfun to be chased by a Deathslinger but that's just my two cents.
I personally think you're trying to dumb down people's arguments because the idea that people might have genuine complaints regarding your main is uncomfortable to think about. Which I would understand if that's the case. The idea that by playing my favourite killer I'd be making the survivors game miserable is uncomfortable for me to think about. Perhaps you're afraid that if enough people will complain then she could be nerfed which could reduce your enjoyment of playing her, which is also understandable, if a bit selfish. Or perhaps you don't care and I'm just needlessly assuming things, lol. Either way, this has gone on for far too long and I need to eat my lunch. I hope this wasn't too much of a trudge to read and I wish you a happy Holiday!
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The problem with hag is playing her as efficiently as possible is very boring for survivors. Hag is slow. You don't want to be all over the map with her chasing people. You want to set up an area with a couple gens. When you down a survivor you either get them to your area to hook them or you set up your area where you can hook them and it's almost gg at that point. Other survivors have to come into your web to unhook. If you place a trap by the hook (which you should) the survivors are either going to set it off during the unhook, or they will be crouching, giving you much more time to return to the hook to find 2 survivors.
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Because there is nothing fun about a killer who basically camps hooks all game long. Hag herself is fine, but the "optimal" way to play her is to leave traps at every person you hook and basically never allow a safe unhook, also known as CAMPING.
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i really don't understand why still people defend a broken mechanic ...
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Yes, everyone hates campers. It's usually optimal to do so but come on, I thought every solo player was supposed to run Kindred at all times. What happened to that?
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