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Reworking perks: Boil over
Boil over is a perk that is really bad and only comes in handy in niche situations. Sure not showing the aura of hooks is sorta good but by the time that comes into play the killer has already memorize the hook location it also does nothing if the killer already know where the hooks are so I think it needs a rework to make it stronger here is my rework
Here is the last feedback change possibly. The reduction in carrying speed can be overpowered given the circumstances so here is another change.
You are a battler and do everything to escape a foe's grasp
Your struggle effects on the killer is increased by 25/50/75%
You obscure the killers ability to see any and all hooks auras while wiggling.
How is this new change?
Comments
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50% is FAR too much. If I'm correct, that would make the killer slower than a *walking* survivor.
Furthermore, the aura obfuscation is pretty useless. The killer will likely be able to figure out using common sense where the hooks are.
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Then 25 or 30% then, anything to make it useful but not overpowered. And the aura reading could be back to a max of 14 meters?
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Agitation: increase walking speed by 18%
While struggling the killers speed while carrying you are decreased by 50%
1 way to balance.
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Hook obfuscation should be increased drastically
Killer walk speed reduced by 10%, or your Wiggle speed increased by 10%
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I was able to look at your feedback and make changes. What about now?
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List on:
Rework boil over: 6% of total perks
- Struggle effect: increase 75%
- Movement: 10% slower
- Time to wiggle out: decrease 10%
- Obscure to see hook aura at 20m range
Agitation & Irongraps combined: 50% of total perks
- Struggle effect: reduce 75%
- Movement: 18% faster
- Time to wiggle out: increase 12%
- Terror radius: increase 12m
I made order list so you can see the balance easily.
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Decreasing movement speed by 15% would make it SO much better than it is now.
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There is a reason that the devs do NOT mess around with killers being able to quickly and cleanly hook things. A killer finishing a chase is meant to be a high point moment for them, and, barring few exceptions, survivors should be *utterly powerless* when being carried.
The last time they added generic anti-carry perks to the game it literally caused a killer strike that drove Qs to 2 hours long at times. You can't balance the concept of making it harder to hook or easier to wiggle out generically. It is just way too toxic to the killer experience.
Like... MAYBE if it also increased carry time, so you don't get ANY additional time alive, you just make body blocks worse and eat a bit more killer time going down? But even that is probably way too much, as bodyblocks are meant to be mega rare because, again, anything that makes the killer feel powerless on pickup is EXTREMELY bad for the game and is so frustrating it actually causes killers to quit. It literally is what killed Deathgarden, for example.
A slowdown even with a time increase is problematic because any amount of slowdown makes it so the killer literally can't hook if you have a SWF bodyblocking. The margins on hook distance are already super thin on many zones and you would create 'carry infinite' spots pretty trivially.
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I see what your saying but with the current perk its really bad. Its not helpful at all. Of we ever have hope in changing the meta we need to make perks with strong effects. Maybe we can lower the speed to make it more fair but in its current state It needs to be changed.
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'The current perk is bad' isn't a valid reason to change the perk into something that is fundamentally toxic.
You can't make reducing the killer's carry speed fair, pretty much flat out. It just has too much of an effect on body blocking. In fact, they literally buffed carry speed recently on slower killers specifically for this reason: It made it effectively impossible for some killers to hook on certain maps vs coordinated survivors. So a speed reduction almost certainly will never ever happen without some super extreme downside.
Carry reduction is a bit more possible, we have seen a few perks of this nature, but its always done in a way that makes it have really obvious counter play and a more limited effect. The reduction in distance would have to be so small for this to be a generic effect that you would almost never notice or care, making the perk still bad.
The implicit fallacious assumption you make is that the perk being bad means that it needs to be fixed by changing the killer's carry speed or distance, but in fact that assumes A: Bad perks NEED to be changed (They don't, but it would be nice) and thus any cost is worth it and B: That this is the only possible change to the perk, when that isn't true, and C: This would make it a generally good perk, which it probably wouldn't, it would just allow extreme toxicity.
For example, really simple change that may make it 'better' but non-toxic, and thus solves issue B, is increasing the penalty to carry distance when dropping the survivor, and the cooldown for MISSED attacks when carrying. This helps solidify the perk in the 'I want to make it easier to sabo for me or bodyblock for me' without actually just applying a big penalty to the killer in a moment where you are intended to have no control and them all of the control.
That said, the core issue is the niche of the perk isn't very healthy. If its too useful it becomes a 'new old DS' where it is just too easy to get second chances and killers are forced to constantly slug again. If it isn't useful enough even if it works why spend a perk slot on something that only kinda helps when you get downed when you can use perks to avoid getting downed? So viewing this perk as a 'It will prevent me from being hooked' perk is probably a bad idea overall, and it may just be a design that has to languish because its so anti-fun, like Unrelenting or Slippery meat: It isn't a 'do nothing' perk, but its just not very good.
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Ok well there has to be some change that be made in order to make it good if not more usable then a second chance perk.
What about if the killer is carrying you struggling will obscure any and all hook auras and not other effect? Is that change more balanced?
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The speed reduction doesn't sound too extreme in theory but you have to consider how far in can go in practice. Think sabo swf + indoor map offering + all with boil over/breakout. It would be obnoxious af
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I like this idea, Boil over is a practically useless perk and needs to be changed. I would say something along the lines of: You obscure the Killer's ability to the see hook auras within 25/30/35 meters. Struggling effects are increased by 75%. You wiggle 5% faster for each survivor within 6 metres of the killer.
I think that 25 metres is quite viable and with the 75% increased struggling effects it will definitely come in handy. I don't think that it should let you wiggle faster without some sort of trigger as that would be unfair to the killer. But in a SWF, its third effect could be useful when combined with the other two. As for changed the killer's speed, I don't think that would be fair as the killer is already slowed down enough when carrying a survivor and slowing him down even more would be too hard for the killer.
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There's pretty much no point in running perks like Breakout and Saboteur at this point. Even Flip-Flop. The hook RNG in the game is ridiculous, i'd rather we started to see some wiggle out plays than what we have in the meta now. The game struggles to allow people to use more than 10% of it's perks. Sure you can argue that Killers should get the hook after winning a chase. At the same time, it's going to require another survivor to come over to help that one wiggle free which is also a pretty dangerous and time consuming act because that's taking off gen pressure...
To me I think killers should feel the pressure of having to run things like Iron Grasp, Mad Grit and Agitation because i think it' pretty pointless to use those perks unless you want to do some basement builds. It would also open up to changing the survivor meta and probably would force the game to be more interactive on both sides instead of this chasing 1 survivor till they're down whilst the rest do gens because that's what we've had for the past 4 years and we should be looking at ways to try and force survivors and killers to interact more and making it beneficial on both sides.
Having perks like Ruin, Undying, DS, Unbreakable, Noed, BT, Adrenaline. They just aren't healthy for the game going forward imo.
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I like this idea, Boil Over is a practically useless perk and needs to be changed. What about: You obscure the Killer's ability to the see hook auras by 25/30/35 meters. Your struggling effects are increased by 75%. Your wiggle speed is increased by 5% for each survivor within 6 metres of the killer.
I think that 25 metres is viable, especially when combined with the 75% increased struggling effects. The third ability is just a little bonus that can help you in specific scenarios. I think that this is quite strong and when paired with something like breakout, flipflop or power struggle could be quite powerful in certain situations. I don't think that it should increase your wiggle speed without some sort of trigger as that would be unfair towards the killer. Decreasing the killers' movement speed is just not fair. Killers are already slowed down enough when carrying survivors and if paired with other effects is simply biased towards survivors.
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Struggle 5 or 10% is good. Making killer speed slower is big no. Stackable up to 30% in wiggle speed is insane and would kill the game. There are many hook placement in which u fully required to carry them till the end near 70-80% before u can hook them. and if someone dies on a hook, and if a survivor decides to run into that corner, with 20-30% ull never be able to hook that survivor on some maps/ spots
Did u all forgot about swf and blocking killer to hook someone. If killer is slower, they can all just block and if all survivors are fully healthy they get off each time on a guranteed hook that is not too close
2l ways to buff -
5%-10% Increase in wiggle speed
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Now all Hooks Auras are gone. or make them 12/24/36 meters
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I like your change! With that said, I think it might actually be even more effective if you just push out the aura obfuscation range a bit instead (20m?). If the killers see no auras at all they'll probably start looking around for hooks nearby, and they'll probably find one. With increased aura blocking range they'd probably just do what they do now against Boil Over, namely, beeline for the nearest aura they can see unless you went down right next to an obvious hook. Especially on indoor maps I could see this being pretty strong actually.
It'd also be cool if they would increase struggle effects to 50/75/100%, just for that nice even 100% and to make it a tad bit more difficult getting to those hooks at more than 20m distance. They could buff Iron Grasp's wiggle reduction to match.
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It is better but still not good.
This is just a super delicate needle to thread, because you absolutely positively don't want the killer to be unable to hook unless they run iron grasp or something. Big no-no. Can't stress enough we see where this leads, and its slugsville and hour long survivor Qs.
Again, this is THE most delicate point in the game to mess with a killer's ability to act. The 'transport to hook' phase is sorta where the killer should be the strongest and everything should have to be perfect for it not to work. This is why this phase has the least exploration perk wise too: A perk that increases wiggle speed is kinda obvious, but there is a reason it never was created.
Boil over wasn't a buff to wiggle speed, and wiggle speed indirectly got nerfed by the killer speedbuff for non-4.6's because the carry distance of killers just needs to be X distance minimum. Suffice to say we will NEVER see a perk that reduces killer carry distance generically.
No auras plus maybe an increased penalty on wiffed attacks plus a drop penalty may work. It just won't make the perk meta. Its just... fundamentally not realistic for a carry nerf perk to be meta without becoming toxic.
Again, we saw what happens when killers are too disempowered on the carry phase and need to run perks to support it: the game withers and dies.
You should not need perks to engage with the super basic mechanic of 'down survivors and carry them to hooks' which is ultimately what happened when SWF groups realized they could permanently block nurses without agitation from ever hooking.
Furthermore, NO survivor perk should EVER pressure the killer to be forced to take a perk, ever. EVER. Like EVER. Unless your talking about giving 16 perk slots to the killer, in which case I would say that is likely to lead to some problems. Killer perks can pressure survivor's usage of perk slots or nullify them, but not the inverse in general, because the game is asymmetric and the way killers and survivors value perks is different.
You may feel those perks are unhealthy, but absolutely gutting a core feature of killers in the form of the basic function of how they score is completely not a viable way to address those perks. It would be akin to killers having a perk that made it so if you didn't have prove thyself you were unable to repair gens except at a 10% speed: its just a fundamentally unhealthy interaction because it just limits the options of every player involved and ends up being a nothng-burger for everyone besides the people who don't play into it, who instead just auto lose a lot of games over it.
This will never happen, because carry distance for the lower end distance killers had to be buffed specifically in the context of body blocking. So creating a perk that re-introduces that in that specific context is not going to happen, as the entire problem with killer movespeed nerfs/wiggle buffs for survivors is if you have 2-3 survivors bodyblocking and chain healing to make hook phases literally impossible.
Again, can't stress enough:
**We will never see a generic wiggle increase/distance decrease because it creates infinites. This is the phase of the game where survivors are plain old helpless, and this perk, while bad, represents about as much power as you can give to survivors 'generically' in this phase.**
The fact other wiggle perks are also (generally) bad isn't a flaw. Maybe those perks shouldn't exist, but the solution isn't to buff them on principle, if the buffs make the game worse they shouldn't happen. And, again, these perks were effectively nerfed due to the core mechanic of carrying being buffed to make body blocking and sabo harder recently for good reason.
Survivors should not generally plan around escaping while being carried unless they are planning to do a wacky meme combo. It just is unhealthy.
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The wiggle mechanic isn't there to give you a serious chance of escape, it's there to prevent every hook from being a basement hook.
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Exactly. Any mucking with the carry mechanic is basically creating conditions where the killer is literally unable to score points. Not 'Ways to block them from scoring points' but actively like... preventing scoring from being possible, because the carry mechanic is one where the killer has really no control over anything and its purely a binary function of time and distance, baring some bodyblock/sabo stuff.
Bodyblock and sabo is deliberately weak, requires setup, is counterable by the killer ahead of time, highly punishable, ect, specifically because, again, its denying the killer the ability to 'score a point' in a scenario where they already scored it. Its fair when it happens because the killer has to make a big mistake to 'undo' their score that a very coordinated team of survivors needs to exploit, but you shouldn't expect to have a single perk and two randos body blocking undo a lost chase anymore than the killer should expect to be able to undo a completed gen by winning one chase. It just isn't good for the game.
Again, there is an argument to be made that these perks are bad for the game as weak as they are because they are deceptive or unfun, but that isn't a good argument for making the overall game worse to make using these perks less of a joke, because that hurts every other perk as well. If you have the option for an 'immortality' perk, suddenly every other survival perk sucks, and your back at square 1.
Instead you want the option for diverse builds that do interesting different things that have different 'plans' for how they win. Could a reworked boil over be part of that? Maybe, but it won't be by making it actually realistic to wiggle out. Because it should never be realistic to just wiggle out without the killer making a series of very big mistakes like wiffing carry hits or not noticing a saboer in an area with isolated hooks.
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Ok I see what you mean. Balancing perks is hard.
I still think the perk should be changed to make it more usable to the survivors but fair for the killers. Would what your suggesting also won't make it toxic or impossible to deal with?
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I think the key is that the perk is less about giving wiggle progress and more making actually navigating to the hook more of a pain, opening up opportunities for a clean rescue.
In that scenario, I will reiterate a longer missed attack slowdown penalty (not hits, as you want the killer to still be rewarded for smackin a body-block correctly), and a penalty to dropping you on purpose, would do a lot. It makes it so in addition to having a harder time controlling themselves, if someone interferes the stakes are higher because if they miss the hit they probably lose ya, and if they drop ya that means they are, unless they had a lot of spare time, committing to letting you go or at least slugging you.
It forces the killer to make hard choices, but choices they are still making, and they can still 'beat' the perk by playing well, which is the ideal case for any 'carry nerf' perks: The killer should be the one in a position to beat it if they respond to it correctly, rather than it merely requiring the survivors to set it up well to automatically work. "Ties go to killer" basically, but it doesn't mean that it has to be trivial to tie as long as its also not trivial to use right: body blocks are hard but when your being body blocked landing hits without losing a lot of distance can be hard too, so increasing the stakes of failing to land hits is significant.
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How about a 2% increase to wiggle speed and/or increase wiggle amount gained when dropped.
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This. A killer losing a potential hook purely from a single survivors (the downed one) actions should absolutely not ever be a thing (edge cases being Flip flop which is extremely situational).
If a killer is going to lose a potential hook through no fault of their own it should be because of organised teamwork. Not one perk out of a potential 16.
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Flip flop basically requires the killer to somehow be distracted from the pickup for long enough to go back for it, and a bodyblock or sabo to boot.
I would also say coordination isn't enough. One aspect of game design is to designate a 'default' winner in different levels of interaction for different things to determine the risk of the strategy and not just which side is more likely to win but who 'controls' a situation. For example, in Star Craft if you have a forward photon turret rush setup you tend to have less control than your opponent and win heavily in lower end games and almost never in high end games because the correct response is so heavily favored that even doing the rush really well loses.
In DBD, a lot of interactions lean survivor, or to tie depending on skill level. For example, spam pallet juking at low favors killer heavily, at medium tends favor killer as well if someone panics or doesn't do a spam very well, and at higher end favors the survivor entirely if they are healthy and know how to time it. Pallet camping favors killers landing a hit but eating stunned at most skill levels if the survivor is stationary.
Others are purely random, or at least effectively are random from a statistical modeling standpoint because in a 'perfect play' scenario a 50/50 legitimately is a cointoss, but real high end players still have patterns and tells.
I think in the case of hooks and the hook carry, all interactions outside of DS (Which while annoying still has counterplay and unlike traditional 'carry nerf' perks requires the killer to already be in a superior position and if played around maintains that position) should default in the killer winning unless there is a serious skill gap. These strategies should be edge and risky and be 'we think we can style this guy and intend to risk a lot on him not realizing what we are doing' rather than 'we are gunna pull this off and secure the unhook.' BT and eating a hit for a teammate is a much better 'safe' way to rescue that just happens to have some costs to long term safety compared to a slick sabo rescue or flip flop distraction rescue.
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