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How DS SHOULD be changed...
DS is very problematic and has been since it's inception. Let's balance it how it should be.
Keep it THE SAME WAY IT IS, BUT, IT CAN'T BE USED WITHOUT AN ITEM.
The icon shows a weapon in the survivors hand, so to get DS to work, the survivor should have an item. Timer is still 60s, lockers, etc are all free game. The only difference is, an item MUST BE in the survivors hands.
This makes FRANKLIN'S DEMISE a direct counter to DS. What say you community?
Comments
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I think DS should be reworked to this:
The perk still functions exactly the same but it has a maximum of 45 seconds active time but when the survivor is being chased, the timer does not go down. And if the survivor goes down the timer is reset and doubled to 90 seconds, forcing the killer to really throw a lot of pressure away if they do want to tunnel. It doesn't stop tunneling entirely, but it makes the killer have a very big disadvantage if they do try to tunnel, which would be very discouraging to any killer who considers trying it.
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From a logic standpoint, this makes sense, however from a balance standpoint I'm not a fan. I think there are better ways of balancing the perk than just adding another condition to a perk that already has a condition.
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This will quickly make franklin's demise meta especially for tunnelers. DS is necessary but the current version we have is overkill and can be weaponized easily.
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I would say 30 seconds instead of 60..But, your thing is lore friendly and funny as hell so I aprove.
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It wouldn't solve the problem with DS at all. Survivors would just bring broken keys or brown medkits every game. The change that DS needs is that it should de-activate if you go repair a generator. You could still heal yourself, others or clean totems but not gens.
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That's a small price to pay. You want to weaponize DS? Go ahead, I have Franklin's. There IS NO COUNTER to DS right now. This gives it counterplay and forces a meta shift on both sides.
You don't wanna get DS, bring Franklin's. You wanna trick the killer into wasting a slot? Don't use DS. Swap DS for something else!
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I'm very sorry but that is stupid. That's going to be an a god like survivor running around in chase with an unlimited duration of DS until downed then it activates. That's a mega buff to the max for survivors.
If this happened killers would just quit on the spot. It wouldn't be worth going up against 4 god like survivors all running DS and BT.
Imagine 2 people being unhooked at the same time both with this DS. They'll literally follow the killer around the entire game to stay in chase and keep their god like DS.
With this DS, it'd be survivors chasing the killer to keep god like status.
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No
The only two issues with DS is using to safely do gens and it's timer being way too long AFTER gens are completed.
the simple fix is disabling it if you work on a gen for 3 seconds and reducing it's timer after gens are done.
lastly wow what a great idea let's make tunneling ALWAYS work with a perk, simply awful.
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The issue is DS should deactivate once you do anything in game. Gen, totem, heal, be healed, unhook a survivor, go in a locker etc. It all should disable DS so survivors can't keep forcing killers into activating their DS.
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think more in depth that that, this basically forces survivors to bring the item OR THEY GET TUNNELED.
why encourage tunneling in any way and why make it so a perk always allows you to tunnel.
this idea is awful because it makes so if you see a survivor without the DS item you know you can tunnel them and even then you can freely tunnel from one perk. that is so unhealthy that at that point i would rather have DS be weaker but base kit and that is also a bad idea for various reasons.
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it shouldn't why totems? why heal? why anything other than a gen?
DS should encourage you to do other things as it is active not oh you did this and stealth killer (or any killer really) saw now die, unless of course you tried going back onto a gen right away.
edit: also lockers are fine they have no reason to use them unless you go for them aka tunneling and if they follow you good they are not doing gens :)
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I think conceptually and on paper this sounds very well but I don't think that being downed should double the timer. People with DS will just get off the hook and get in front of the killer who is chasing their friend to make the killer get in chase with them too. I think it should also get the pop treatment of a straight nerf to 45 seconds since most DS's are not immediate pickups anyway unless it's a low rank killer and they are usually 45-60 second DS. But if you see how annoying people who have DS make it obvious that they have it and decide to play Altrustic Friendo because they know they are immune to being picked up and hooked twice. Doubling the timer is also worse because if they have UB I believe it takes around 20-30 seconds to pick yourself up and if you get downed and left downed at the end of your DS your timer will be replenished. I think that the version of DS (35% wiggle) right before this new version was fine. I also think enduring should affect DS stun time because similar to something like Stridor Spirit (which is not exactly relevant but I am just using it for the sake of the situation), it has a chance of being a complete waste of a perk slot because the surivors don't have the perk you are trying to counter, (IW/DS) or you getting value out of it. Maybe DS should potentially deactivate when you are fully healed or repair a generator for a total of 10 seconds. DS is nearly never used as an anti-tunnel perk lest you play in the low ranks against camping/tunneling trappers and is more commonly used as a second chance perk. Overall, my ideal version of DS would be:
-DS will activate for 45 seconds when unhooked.
-DS will deactivate when someone else is hooked.
-DS will deactivate when you start repairing any generator for a total of 10 seconds.
-DS will deactivate when you are fully healed.
-DS will deactivate when you pick yourself up from the ground.
-Enduring 3 (and 3 only) can reduce the stun time of DS from 5 to 3 seconds.
These changes will ideally preserve the concept of DS truly being an anti-tunnel perk and not being a saving grace for survivors who want to play like jerks because they know they are immune. Call me an entitled killer player or a baby. Do whatever but I bet it won't be worse than the state of Demo.
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45 seconds: DS timer is actually perfect, if it's reduced even by 15 seconds it will be way more common to slug the ds user and just wait it out. the only issue with the timer is it AFTER all gens are done since 1 minute is enough to crawl out an exit gate.
DS deactivating upon another survivor being hooked: WAY to exploitable in so many ways, just think of all the different scenarios where the killer tunnels you before or after also downing another survivor. it will just allow the killer to tunnel especially if they camp since you will easily get both the savior and the unhooked depending on your killer.
DS deactivating on gens: yes I agree with this but this is really all it needs besides it's timer getting reduced AFTER all gens are completed. Also 10 seconds is too generous i would reduce that to 3 or 5 seconds.
DS deactivating upon healing: Awful, stealth killers and insta down killers will allow the heal to happen then tunnel. this also makes survivors not want to heal and DS should be for survivors to recover and do other things besides the objective.
DS deactivating when you are picked up: No, this won't even be an issue any more if it is disabled by gens since unbreakable+DS is used for free progress on gens and that really is it's only issue.
enduring: it shouldn't affect DS, DS is for anti tunnel we don't need the killer to lessen that in any way with such a common and good perk.
also i highly doubt the devs will make a list of all this on the perk XD at most they will restrict it with one maybe two conditions and the most balanced ones are deactivating on working on gens and it's timer being reduced after gens are done.
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Dude just say you NEED DS.
As far as tunneling, it's SMART to remove a survivor as quick as possible. If I catch a god looper, you dang on right I want him out of the game.
Why is the image of a weapon? An item should be used to whack the killer. No item, no DS.
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Actually yea your idea's much better, I forgot about the whole saving grace thing since usually in my matches I don't run into the people who treat DS as a get out of jail card, but then again I'm only rank 4. Plus the downing double timer thing does sound like a bit much seeming how a killer can still get a last second hit then it gets 90 more seconds, my bad
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just say you want to freely tunnel like a r15 lol jUsT SAy iT.
I simply hate tunneling both as a killer and survivor, your suggestion encourages tunneling like crazy that's why it's awful.
also in case you didn't notice i want it nerfed but in the proper way, do i use DS? yes but that's because i play as a solo and that's rare since i mainly play killer :)
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Because DS users do anything they can to try and get you to be hit with DS especially hiding in lockers knowing full well there DS will activate.
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and that isn't a problem as long as they are not doing gens, let them waste time.
also again no reason to go into a locker unless the killer goes for you and this is an anti tunnel tactic so the perk is fine in this regard. you went after them they prevented interaction unless you take the stun, you were tunneling.
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It's wasting the killers time. It's giving a survivor 60 seconds of god like time. I got the feeling your a massive DS user and you don't want it nerfing.
I don't think you understand DS is being abused by survivors purposely baiting the killer to activate it. Well all know that DS users will try to do anything because they have the 60 seconds free god like timer. Even I know this because I've it unlocked. It isn't an anti tunnelling perk at all.
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No it's not just ignore them and go after another survivor, you going after them is tunneling and if they are following you they are not doing anything. if they get too close you can always slug.
I'm well aware on how the perk works i avoid it constantly by simply playing well, the perk does nothing if you ignore the survivor or slug them if the opportunity presents itself. the bigger issue is when they do gens right off hooks with the perk active since you can't punish it it was free progress on what matters which is the objective to escape.
that's why the only change it needs is to deactivate when doing a gen, if they are not progressing the game they are not winning and if they do go onto a gen you can then chase them without worrying about DS.
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You say I'm tunnelling, yeah? Explain this as tunnelling someone.
I hooked player 1
I hooked player 2
player 1 got unhooked by player 3 as I was hooking the 2nd player
player 1 ran up to player 2 to unhook them right away
I grabbed player 1, player 1 then hit me with DS. Player 1 then unhooked player 2 and all ran off.
Where in that is tunnelling? All I did was grab a survivor who was trying to take a player off the hook. Am I suppose to let the player get a free unhook because they had DS?
Please explain me grabbing a survivors off the hook as tunnelling. Then you can carry on saying don't tunnel,
Another example.
I was on Lampkin Lane.
I hooked player 1,
I cross map chasing player 2 and hooked them,
Someone unhooked player 1,
I found player 1 by chance running around, I downed them and they hit me with DS.
Where was I tunnelling then?
I've literally gone across the map and back again hooking a different survivor and I still get a DS to my face. Where did tunnelling come in there?
I've had enough of people making up excuses about people being tunnelled to death but that isn't the case. It's the case of the survivor is trying to force killers to down them so they can use DS on them and get away free.
Like I said before. If the survivor tries to do anything game related then DS should deactivate to avoid it being used as a free escape.
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cool you could have lunged to slug, also it shouldn't be changed just because "oh no i grabbed him near the end of the timer"
as for that second example yes you were however it was unintentional but still you were.
Also DS saves are awesome! you get stunned for 5 seconds but it's more like 2-3 seconds since they have to move to the hooked and do the save before running. by the time they start running the time your stunned is more like 2-3 seconds in terms of how much distance they got, you can easily catch back up to the DS user then hook him and best part he pretty much wasted it.
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