In defense for DH and why Coup de Grace should be buffed

Saltjar34

So now that DS and OoO is nerfed, some of us are going after Dead Hard. I made this thread for 2 reasons. One, I hope that this thread ends up above or below a thread complaining about DH so that I get a funny image to post. Second, I'd like to talk about DH and Coup de Grace regarding dashes.

So here's the thing about Dead Hard, it's a perk that lets you dash forward. Here's a funny thing about that mechanic, it is included in so many other games. You have the roll from Dark Souls, the smoke bomb from Cuphead, the shade cloak from Hollow Knight. Don't think they're comparable because they're single player? You have Fox and Falco's side B from the Super Smash Bros series, you have whatever the heck Kabal's dash attack is from MK11. And of course, you have Bloodborne, a game where dodging is pivotal due to the speed of the enemies.

In each of these games, the dash usually serves 2 purposes. To dodge a normally unavoidable or hard to dodge attack or to start a combo. DH basically fills these 2 roles. It can either let you dodge a sniper hatchet or tough blink or allow you to combo into a pallet. Here are 3 problems, 1. You can only use it once per chase. In every single one of my examples, you can dash multiple times in one fight with the only requirement being precise timing. That brings me to my second point, like it or not DH takes sliver of skill to use properly. Sure getting to a vault with the press of a button isn't hard but 1, that's what Bamboozle and anti-pallet is for and 2, there's a possibility that the pallet or window isn't actually safe. And the worst part is, you can only do it once so messing up once would break your momentum.

And now to my last point, in all the games I've mentioned, dashing is can be countered if you see it coming. In the Super Smash Bros series, you can gimp, hit, or just jump from Fox and Falco's side-B. In MK11, a Kabal that spams dash attacks isn't going anywhere and you can just jump and then punish them, in Bloodborne you can... Honestly there are so many options there to counter rolling that I don't feel like listing them.

One of the biggest points I've seen people complain about DH is that it lets you erase a mistake you've done and that's the point of a dash, it lets you dodge an unavoidable attack. If you were to nerf DH in any way, you would only do 2 things, make it so the perk's purpose is strictly dodging or strictly distance, both of which some people hate so let's make a compromise, let's just change Coup de Grace so that it works exactly like Dead Hard. I have an idea but I don't want to list it because I don't this post to be put in Feedback.

Saltjar34

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1960018#Comment_1960018

That's a good point. However keep in mind that dead zones and unsafe loops are a great place since DH doesn't work really well there. Even in good loops, the strength of DH can still be mitigated by chase perks likes Bamboozle since it limits the amount of choices survivors have.

But I do agree about one thing and it's that DH ruins the power of many killers with the only exception being Bubba. Personally, the worst thing about DH is that it renders every single exhaustion perk invalid.

Reinami

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/229019/in-defense-for-dh-and-why-coup-de-grace-should-be-buffed

Dead hard to avoid an attack is actually fine, it has counterplay, and is totally balanced.

Dead hard for distance is not. Imagine this scenario.

• You chase a survivor around a jungle gym.
• You make a correct guess, you land a hit.
• They sprint burst away to a killer shack and it takes you 20 seconds or so to catch back up.
• They loop you around killer shack no guessing required, and then just as they round the corner, they dead hard to the pallet and drop it.
• Now the loop is reset, and you must take another 20 seconds catching up to them.

In this scenario, there is no counterplaying it. There is a fixed amount of time that it takes the killer to catch up to hit the survivor, and just as they are about to get caught, they can dead hard for distance, reaching a pallet or window they otherwise couldn't. That is the problem. It means against good survivors you need to "win" the chase 3 times, instead of just 2 times. None of the other exhaustion perks have this problem:

• Sprint burst can only be used at the start of the chase, meaning i can actively see they are sprint bursting, and choose to NOT chase them or to continue chasing. If i continue, once i catch up, i only have to win 2 chases.
• Lithe can only be used when vaulting over something, this means you generally sacrifice traditional means of looping around something because you can't fast vault a window. This means you end up dropping a pallet early, or you don't get to loop in the most optimal way.
• Head on can't actively be used in a chase unless playing very sneakily or using other perks that allow you to do so. Additionally, it only gives you ~ a 3 second head start, and can't be used to reset a chase.
• Balanced landing only works in very specific locations in the game. Generally loops don't feature places where you can drop down and use the perk. It usually only gets used in locations where there isn't already a loop. This means it functions similar to sprint burst, and i can choose to not chase them.

All of the other perks, and even using dead hard to dodge an attack, have counterplay in some way. They also all have a downside.

• Sprint burst must walk everywhere or waste sprint burst
• Lithe can't loop as efficiently if they want to use lithe.
• Head on is pretty obvious and can be countered, also isn't as game impacting as the others.
• Balanced landing only has a few places in a map it can be used and can be used in chase far less reliably.
• Dead hard to dodge an attack can be baited out, wasting the dead hard

Dead hard requires you to be injured, which isn't really a downside, because it means you ALWAYS get to use it once per chase.

Dead hard for distance, has no counter.

Ideal changes to dead hard would be:

• After using it, you become broken for a lengthy time, perhaps even the rest of the game, this means you get 1 use where it lets you extend a chase and the rest of the game it maintains its current value.
• It is no longer an exhaustion perk and instead can be used some number of times a match (2 times maybe). This, again keeps it in line and only allows it to extend chases a couple of times.
• It no longer dashes, but double the length of the invincibility frames. You lose invincibility if you attempt to vault. Play some kind of animation to show you are invincible. This makes it easier to dodge an attack with dead hard and allows you to use if for its intended purpose. But if the killer doesn't swing, you don't get to escape for free by just vaulting.

Alionis

At least there should be more activation conditions for CdG, a maximum of 5 times per trial for one increased lunge that you can't even save for when you really need it and is gone with a quick attack as well isn't worth using it.

Saltjar34

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1962390#Comment_1962390

 Here's an idea for Coup de Grace to make it a killer version of Dead Hard.

For each 60/40/20 seconds not spent in chase, gain a token up to a maximum of one token.

Performing a lunge consumes a token and extends your lunge by 100%

Single use dash, just like Dead Hard

Edit : It is now doubled

Alionis

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1965528#Comment_1965528

That would be an interesting rework, though the times would probably need to be tweaked to be higher. Every 10 seconds, even with the no-chase restriction, seems a bit much, all things considered.