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The Decisive Strike Problem (Rework)

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Comments

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Blood_Coil_Viper said:
    This change to the perk would almost certainly fix most of it's issues. The current version is no risk high reward. A simple skill check isn't hard enough to call it a risk.. I do hope they consider this version of the perk. 
    Yes indeed! :)
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    It's garbage becauss it robs you of your hard work. They shouldn't be escaping from a pick up at all outside of flashlight saves or the killer not making it to a hook.

    I fear it will be even worse now the hooks will be further apart. All the non-obsessions will easily hit their 35%

    I liked the idea of it being an item - an ultra, ultra rare item mind. That way it wouldn't be in every single game.
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Nickenzie said:
    Lowbei said:
    Nickenzie said:
    Lowbei said:
    powerbats said:

    @Lowbei said:
    i would support a change that required a condition to be met to activate DS.

    I think you'd need to take out the Obsession chance increase since if the killer knows you have it they'll just make sure you don't get the requirements to use it.

    Perhaps make it so the person has to do an Altruistic action in order to use it although you'd have people fighting for unhooks at that point. Which from a killers point of view is a good thing since it's more targets and less gen progression.

    You could also make it specific to either healing others or unhooking and not self healing with SC or a Medkit. So if you unhook it increases your chances to struggle by x % and heals does it by x as well with unhooks being worth more.

    But make a cap on how much you could get % wise overall on the struggle % increase.

    agreed, or just cost the ds user one hook level at its use, thus straight to struggle on first, or dead if 2nd. 
    The perk just needs to be more like Deliverance, where you need to do something in order to gain a benefit from it. Currently when a survivor uses DS, they technically have 4 lives. Decisive Strike, phase 1, phase 2, and then finally they are dead.
    yeah, 4 is a bit much considering i can loop most killers for long enough to finish most of the gens before one down. i often get the killers attention on purpose from the start so i can max boldness, and not have to run into already broken pallets during my run, and often im getting hooked for the first time as the last gen goes off.
    I'm not that great in chases as a survivor but I have experienced as a killer how damaging a DS can be when you spent so much time earning your hook. Additionally, I also hate the ego that Decisive Strike gives to survivors.
    I don't think it's DS giving them an ego, I just think that toxic people are really drawn to decisive strike.
  • Whispers23
    Whispers23 Member Posts: 111

    They should remove it completely. Getting DC 3 times in one match is insane.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Whispers23 said:

    They should remove it completely. Getting DC 3 times in one match is insane.

    I don't think the developers will do that and I think it's better to make the perk act like Deliverance where it takes something to activate it. If every survivor was using this version of the perk, most of the time it wouldn't be a problem unless of course SWF. I'm saying that this version isn't perfect but is much much better than the current DS! :)
  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    Bump 
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    @not_Queen @McLean Can you give this rework a chance? Of course you may need to tweak some things but I really think that this rework would make DS balanced. Additionally, you don't need to create new animations! :)
  • Aviema
    Aviema Member Posts: 45

    I think this rework does everything a rework can for a perk, any conversations whose points exist outside the scope of this perk are not going to be solved by a rework of this perk. This perk may make prominent issues regarding meta-game balance, but I think this rework accomplishes the task of diminishing that prominence so that all we are left with is the normal game imbalance. Which cannot be solved by just reworking any perk.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Aviema said:

    I think this rework does everything a rework can for a perk, any conversations whose points exist outside the scope of this perk are not going to be solved by a rework of this perk. This perk may make prominent issues regarding meta-game balance, but I think this rework accomplishes the task of diminishing that prominence so that all we are left with is the normal game imbalance. Which cannot be solved by just reworking any perk.

    I agree, I just don't like you can instantly get a another life by equipping DS. I feel like you should work for that free escape! :)
  • Parity
    Parity Member Posts: 28
    Survivors have it way harder then killers. Not going to waste my time explaining it either. All political bias bs. Let the developers do their job, they fail? That's on them not us. They succeed? Great! 

    No point in digging any deeper then we or I need to be. 
  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @Nickenzie I know Not_Queen wasn't streaming till Nov 2nd at the earliest due to her going to Twitchcon, so i'm not sure she's going to be responding to the forums right now. That doesn't mean she doesn't see it she does, and i'm sure she'll discuss it with the devs.

    Perhaps you could throw this one in for the next DevStream question pool.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    powerbats said:

    @Nickenzie I know Not_Queen wasn't streaming till Nov 2nd at the earliest due to her going to Twitchcon, so i'm not sure she's going to be responding to the forums right now. That doesn't mean she doesn't see it she does, and i'm sure she'll discuss it with the devs.

    Perhaps you could throw this one in for the next DevStream question pool.

    I'll try and get featured in the next Q&A! :)
  • Entità
    Entità Member Posts: 1,583
    Does a survivor use DS and free themselves from you shoulders? Catch them in a chase! Do they disappear? Take your revenge with BBQ, Bitter Murmur, Devour Hope and NOED. What's the problem?
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Entità said:
    Does a survivor use DS and free themselves from you shoulders? Catch them in a chase! Do they disappear? Take your revenge with BBQ, Bitter Murmur, Devour Hope and NOED. What's the problem?
    The problem is that DS is a guaranteed extra life without working for it. I feel like you should work for your get out jail free card.
  • Eryteis
    Eryteis Member Posts: 39

    Put exhaustion on DS or you need item in hands ;s (o hai franklin!)

  • alivebydeadight
    alivebydeadight Member Posts: 1,559

    @Nickenzie said:
    Entità said:

    Does a survivor use DS and free themselves from you shoulders? Catch them in a chase! Do they disappear? Take your revenge with BBQ, Bitter Murmur, Devour Hope and NOED. What's the problem?

    The problem is that DS is a guaranteed extra life without working for it. I feel like you should work for your get out jail free card.

    wait, how bout a smaller skill check, causes exaustion, and lowered amount of stun time?

  • TheMadDoctor
    TheMadDoctor Member Posts: 250

    @Nickenzie said:
    I know that you killer mains are very upset and enraged that the Decisive Strike nerf didn't hit the PTB but you gotta think about the other side as well. Now before you get you pitch forks and torches for me saying that, allow me to explain before you bombard me with LOL's! :)

    The Problem With Decisive Strike:

    This perk allows a "Free" get out of jail card to the survivor using it.

    How to Fix Decisive Strike Without Making the Perk Useless:

    Let's look at Deliverance, a perk that makes you work for a jail free card and notice this time that I didn't say "Free" like I did above with the Decisive Strike problem. Deliverance has multiple amount of various variables limiting it from being a "Free" get out of jail card. Let's look at the conditions of the perk as well as the penalties afterward from using the perk:

    Deliverance:
    -Needs a condition to activate
    -You will still move to the second phase of sacrifice
    -Has a penalty after using it
    -Can be completely useless if you are hooked first

    Now, since we got a general understanding on why Deliverance is a balanced jail free card, let's apply our knowledge to Decisive Strike.

    Decisive Strike:
    When you are within 12/24/36 meters from the killer for a total of 60 seconds, this perk will activate. If the perk is activated and the killer picks you up, immediately stun the killer for 4 seconds and automatically wiggle free from the killer's grasp. A successful Decisive Strike will cause you to suffer a 20/40/60 second bleed-out timer. The perk will not activate if you have been hooked before and this perk can only be used once per trial. Increases your chances of becoming the killer's obsession.

    It's worth noting that the perk will not tell you your progress to activating the perk since it would ruin stealth killers. However the perk will light up when it's activated and ready to use! Additionally, the perk will not make progress when in a chase, forgot to add that on to my Decisive Strike rework! :)

    Why is This Version of Decisive Strike More Balanced?

    This version has a condition, a risk, and a penalty after using the perk. This perk is exactly like Deliverance or a better way to explain it, it's now the survivor's version of a Hex perk. You either waste a perk slot or you can get tremendous value if you follow these conditions!

    What do you all think? Please leave your civil comments below! :)

    I actually do like this idea. I love deliverance as a perk since its well balanced and giving that treatment to decisive strike would ease the annoyance a bit. Hopefully the devs not being satisfied with the tested changes means they realized this too. If they did, I'll be amazed.

  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    What if after using DS the survivor got a BT timer? So they'll end dropping if they dont lose the killer... that way they cant just loop the rest of the game and the perk will reward those who decide to lose the killer as their supposed to.. 
  • Entità
    Entità Member Posts: 1,583
    edited October 2018
    Provided that Ruin, NOED, Bitter Murmur and other powerful killer's perks operate without any condition or killer's merit, so it's not so clear why special conditions should be imposed on Decisive Strike, DS can be easily countered by dropping and catching the survivor: Devs stated this trick is legitimate and can be used three times before the survivor is free from killer's grasp, so it's very simple to block the skill check or make the survivor waste the perk. Consider DS is born to balance the deathly danger Laurie Strode is in because of Object of Obsession.

    If some restrictions are strictly necessary, I agree with the charging of the perk by being far from the killer for a period of time, but bleed-out is a nonsense: it replaces the dying state, giving the survivor a chance to lose the killer, but when you wiggle succesfully by the killer's grasp you are merely injured, so that timer is not reasonable nor coherent with the general game mechanics.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Entità said:
    Provided that Ruin, NOED, Bitter Murmur and other powerful killer's perks operate without any condition or killer's merit, so it's not so clear why special conditions should be imposed on Decisive Strike, DS can be easily countered by dropping and catching the survivor: Devs stated this trick is legitimate and can be used three times before the survivor is free from killer's grasp, so it's very simple to block the skill check or make the survivor waste the perk. Consider DS is born to balance the deathly danger Laurie Strode is in because of Object of Obsession.

    If some restrictions are strictly necessary, I agree with the charging of the perk by being far from the killer for a period of time, but bleed-out is a nonsense: it replaces the dying state, giving the survivor a chance to lose the killer, but when you wiggle succesfully by the killer's grasp you are merely injured, so that timer is not reasonable nor coherent with the general game mechanics.

    "Provided that Ruin, NOED, Bitter Murmur and other powerful killer's perks operate without any condition or killer's merit, so it's not so clear why special conditions should be imposed on Decisive Strike"

    Anything that gives someone another chance without working for it is not okay. Ruin doesn't give the killer a second chance since survivors can cleanse the Hex and it's needed or else killers will get generator rushed, NOED is a grey area, and Bitter Murmur doesn't have much a impact to a game to be considered a second chance. However DS is easy to use and gives a survivor another chance for failing, perks that reward failure without meeting a condition is unacceptable.

    "    Devs stated this trick is legitimate and can be used three times before the survivor is free from killer's grasp, so it's very simple to block the skill check or make the survivor waste the perk."

    The killer dribbling a survivor looks really silly and most of the times, the survivor isn't downed beside a hook. Additionally how do you counter a non obsession DS? Enduring is just a hard counter and not reliable since it doesn't prevent the survivor from extending the chase.

    "    I agree with the charging of the perk by being far from the killer for a period of time, but bleed-out is a nonsense: it replaces the dying state, giving the survivor a chance to lose the killer, but when you wiggle succesfully by the killer's grasp you are merely injured, so that timer is not reasonable nor coherent with the general game mechanics."

    The bleed out timer is there to encourage the survivor to break the chase or else they will enter dying state after a minute. Additionally, the survivor didn't successfully wiggle free in terms of reaching 100% on the bar, the survivor just stuns the killer at the beginning or at 35% of the wiggle bar. Assuming if it takes 16 seconds for a survivor to wiggle off and become injured, what does that mean for a 1 second escape? Overall, I didn't put things there just for LOLZ, I have a reason to do what I do. If you have anymore questions, please ask!
  • Entità
    Entità Member Posts: 1,583
    @Nickenzie "perks that reward failure without meeting a condition is unacceptable." is a scholastic/professionale argument: you have not studied enough during this year, you deserve to repeat it; you worked bad, I'm firing you. In a competitive game, many factors make the destiny of every character, aside personal prowess: sometimes you cannot hide, cannot run away, not because you are bad at playing, just because game circumstances (map's structure, other survivors' behaviour, luck about the order the killer follows in their exploration...) make it impossible.

    Of course, that argument, if used, applies to the killer, too. Haven't you been good in hunting, chasing, catching and hooking people but one, gates are powered and you are losing your trial? Then you failed and don't deserve a perk rewarding your failure with a second chance, like NOED.

    I prefer more powerful perks on the both sides, that make the difference, so everybody has to build a different game strategy according to the special help every combination of four perks guarantees, than a boring, grey, repetitive game, where perks are weak, all people play in the same way and the trials are widely foreseeable, without any surprise, without any need to understand what particular dangers you have to defend yourself from. So welcome DS, NOED, Devour Hope, Unbreakable and every other perk that is more than a colored sketch in the HUD.
  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930
    edited October 2018

    @Nickenzie
    Let's look at Deliverance, a perk that makes you work for a jail free card and notice this time that I didn't say "Free" like I did above with the Decisive Strike problem.

    I just started reading and I’ve already been backstabbed!

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Entità said:
    @Nickenzie "perks that reward failure without meeting a condition is unacceptable." is a scholastic/professionale argument: you have not studied enough during this year, you deserve to repeat it; you worked bad, I'm firing you. In a competitive game, many factors make the destiny of every character, aside personal prowess: sometimes you cannot hide, cannot run away, not because you are bad at playing, just because game circumstances (map's structure, other survivors' behaviour, luck about the order the killer follows in their exploration...) make it impossible.

    Of course, that argument, if used, applies to the killer, too. Haven't you been good in hunting, chasing, catching and hooking people but one, gates are powered and you are losing your trial? Then you failed and don't deserve a perk rewarding your failure with a second chance, like NOED.

    I prefer more powerful perks on the both sides, that make the difference, so everybody has to build a different game strategy according to the special help every combination of four perks guarantees, than a boring, grey, repetitive game, where perks are weak, all people play in the same way and the trials are widely foreseeable, without any surprise, without any need to understand what particular dangers you have to defend yourself from. So welcome DS, NOED, Devour Hope, Unbreakable and every other perk that is more than a colored sketch in the HUD.
    "Then you failed and don't deserve a perk rewarding your failure with a second chance, like NOED."

    Uh, I don't use NOED, it's practically the same as DS.

    "I prefer more powerful perks on the both sides, that make the difference, so everybody has to build a different game strategy according to the special help every combination of four perks guarantees."

    I'm okay with powerful perks if they have a huge risk and huge reward play style. I'm not okay with low risk and high reward perks, it's a "no no".


  • TerminalEntropy
    TerminalEntropy Member Posts: 71

    @Entità said:
    Of course, that argument, if used, applies to the killer, too. Haven't you been good in hunting, chasing, catching and hooking people but one, gates are powered and you are losing your trial? Then you failed and don't deserve a perk rewarding your failure with a second chance, like NOED.

    For the f. sake, NOED can be countered before it even sets off and after it does - it can be stomped out. That's the first thing. Second - Killers failure is not announced by all gens been done. Think if you want to make a reasonable argument 'cause this one doesn't stick at all.

    DS can't be countered, Enduring will shave off a couple of seconds of stun but it's the loosing of the survivor itself that's the major event here, stun is an addition in comparison. And the perk as it is wouldn't be so much o a problem if game were taking longer than it does right now. The other issue is it's reliability (tremendously difficult, rrright) and possibility of 4ppl wearing it.

    The rework ideas are actually quite nice, though the idea of it stopping Killer and adding wiggle progress is equally good. Or make a counter-skillcheck for the Killer, why only Survivors are supposed to have boons based on a ting that can be trained to the point of no-mistake :D

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Hey, @Peanits @not_Queen @Patricia can you give this idea a shot? This would be easy to implement since you don't have to add new animations! I'll ask this on the next QPA if you don't respond to this and hopefully you'll take this change into consideration whenever you do rework DS, even if it's not exactly my version. As always, thank you for the support and love that you show us.
  • Whispers23
    Whispers23 Member Posts: 111

    I don't like the idea of escaping the grasp even if you meet a condition. It's really annoying after a hard chase the survivor can escape easily. If the game were longer then keep it like it is now, but we all now how short the matches are against good survivors.
    Maybe you stun the killer for 4 sec WITHOUT escaping and make it automatic without skill check is fine.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Whispers23 said:

    I don't like the idea of escaping the grasp even if you meet a condition. It's really annoying after a hard chase the survivor can escape easily. If the game were longer then keep it like it is now, but we all now how short the matches are against good survivors.
    Maybe you stun the killer for 4 sec WITHOUT escaping and make it automatic without skill check is fine.

    The developers don't wanna do that with DS, their results are "Unsatisfied" and they didn't find their preferred results. This is why I made a alternative since they don't wanna do your idea for some reason.
  • wimlin
    wimlin Member Posts: 30

    @KingB said:
    The biggest problem with decisive is there isn't any counterplay. This is a good idea but fails to address the core problem of the perk. I respectfully disagree and I don't think this sloves the killers' complaints about DS. I think the better idea is to stun the killer for X seconds and fill XX% of the wiggle bar.

    Are you kidding? There are multiple counter plays. You can dribble the survivor which happens A TON if you suspect they have decisive. Another strategy that is distracting and makes the already difficult skill check even harder to hit is if you swing about the time you think they are getting the skill check... the noise sand the motion is VERY distracting when you are trying to focus on the skill check. Saying there is NO counter at all is stupid. And honestly why do survivors need ANY nerfs? Right now they game is so favored toward killers you are pathetic if you don't kill at least 3/4 every match at any rank.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    wimlin said:

    @KingB said:
    The biggest problem with decisive is there isn't any counterplay. This is a good idea but fails to address the core problem of the perk. I respectfully disagree and I don't think this sloves the killers' complaints about DS. I think the better idea is to stun the killer for X seconds and fill XX% of the wiggle bar.

    Are you kidding? There are multiple counter plays. You can dribble the survivor which happens A TON if you suspect they have decisive. Another strategy that is distracting and makes the already difficult skill check even harder to hit is if you swing about the time you think they are getting the skill check... the noise sand the motion is VERY distracting when you are trying to focus on the skill check. Saying there is NO counter at all is stupid. And honestly why do survivors need ANY nerfs? Right now they game is so favored toward killers you are pathetic if you don't kill at least 3/4 every match at any rank.

    The skill check isn't difficult, it's actually really difficult to miss. Additionally, I don't like how you need to dribble a survivor to a hook because it looks really stupid for the killer to repeatedly drop and pick up a survivor. The game isn't favored towards killers or survivors, the developers are just balancing the game to make it more fair.
  • Demonsouls1993
    Demonsouls1993 Member Posts: 261
    Or here's a better fix just remove it perk is stupid and rewards failing
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Demonsouls1993 said:
    Or here's a better fix just remove it perk is stupid and rewards failing
    The developers will never remove a perk regardless of how much that you hate it. You need to think about how can both sides be happy? Yes, my version does reward failure but you don't get the reward for free, you have to work for it.
  • Whispers23
    Whispers23 Member Posts: 111

    I don't like your version. It doesn't solve the problem we have now "escaping the grasp"
    And the killer still has to deal with possible 4 DS in one match!!

  • KingB
    KingB Member Posts: 747
    edited November 2018
    @wimlin Dribbling only works if the survivor goes down near a hook. The skill check isn't hard to hit once you have a ton of hours in the game. And those are the only time its a problem is when those people are using it. There is no true counter, show me anything in the game that's ridiculously strong but has no true counterplay. Are you kidding? Play killer, the game is unbalanced at the top. That's why there's all these threads complaining about Gen rush, because the survivors can do their objective so much quicker than killer.
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    KingB said:
    @wimlin Dribbling only works if the survivor goes down near a hook. The skill check isn't hard to hit once you have a ton of hours in the game. And those are the only time its a problem is when those people are using it. There is no true counter, show me anything in the game that's ridiculously strong but has no true counterplay. Are you kidding? Play killer, the game is unbalanced at the top. That's why there's all these threads complaining about Gen rush, because the survivors can do their objective so much quicker than killer.
    It's true, you can't always dribble and Enduring doesn't prevent the survivor from hitting the skill check either. Enduring just increases the recovery from stuns which helps against DS but a survivor can still make the most from it.
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Anyone has any suggestions? Feel free to comment your opinion! :)
  • Entità
    Entità Member Posts: 1,583
    @Nickenzie I have six suggestions: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/30297/decisive-strike-possible-changes-reworks :)

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Entità said:
    @Nickenzie I have six suggestions: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/30297/decisive-strike-possible-changes-reworks :)

    I may not be able to create discussions but I still can continue the ones before I was incorrectly jailed so I'm gonna use this to my advantage!

    I asked @Patricia a question in the Q&A and I'm not sure if the developers seen my suggestion. Hey, can you shine some light into this? I really believe this would be the solution to balancing DS!
  • Kind_Lemon
    Kind_Lemon Member Posts: 2,559
    I hate Deliverance as a killer; it is my sole purpose in those matches to murder the survivors that use it. Everyone else can get away if it means one suffers.

    As a survivor, I love it. It makes for the best optimization possible that ekes away even more time from those nasty killers.
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Kind_Lemon said:
    I hate Deliverance as a killer; it is my sole purpose in those matches to murder the survivors that use it. Everyone else can get away if it means one suffers.

    As a survivor, I love it. It makes for the best optimization possible that ekes away even more time from those nasty killers.
    @Kind_Lemon
    Yeah, I definitely understand your PoV but at least the perk isn't a free get out of jail card, ya know?
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Hey, @Janick what do you think about this change?