Issues With Basement, Struggle Meter Connecting to Hook/Generator Placement, Hitboxes and Camping
First off, let me say that I genuinely enjoy this game.
My small group of friends and I enjoy surviving against online Killers as well as the Killing Your Friends system, but there's been several nagging issues that keep coming up. Some of these have already been hotly discussed, for and against, but I feel that I have to say something now. It's been long enough and with "balancing" being done, I believe it's worth opening the discussion again.
The first is more of a minor complaint, but I think is important to note. There's a couple maps where the basement is just about a death sentence to be thrown in or trying to rescue.
These instances are where, on these maps, the basement not only has stairs to get down, but also have a single way in or out typically from a long shaft or tunnel. Even with a modest Killer who doesn't sit around the Basement, the excess depth to the basement makes it an incredibly dangerous proposal to rescue someone or even to leave it if you unhook yourself. The Killers move at too fast of a speed and I've noted that these tunnels usually show up in the center of the problem maps. Whether intentional or not, this steeper Basement makes it hard to cope with. Whether I'm surviving or being a Killer, the best option for them, even in a chase, is to immediately go back when they know they're being unhooked and, let's be honest, why are there closets in the basement to begin with? No one falls for them anymore. That light at the end of the tunnel is usually red.
That is minor overall. My friends and I just might be incredibly unlucky in all those circumstances, but the next one is becoming a larger issue; that being the Struggle Meter.
It feels like that, unless you're using Decisive Strike or Boil Over, struggling on it's own is pointless. There always seems to be a Hook within a few meters wherever someone gets downed and it's starting to be annoying. Even in the rare instance someone uses the offering to get rid of one or two, I can't tell you the last time I had gotten free without one of those perks. I don't believe Survivors should have an easy time escaping, but something needs to happen.
Too many times there will be Hooks "stacking", on a map and sometimes outright circling generators. If we can't discuss making a low number of Hooks appear on a map, then something needs to be done with the coding responsible for it. The Killer should always have a clear Hook in sight to get too, without it being purely unlucky that an entire cluster of Hooks spawn in what we affectionately call a "Ring of Sacrifice" dead center in the map. That needs to be tweaked somehow in a few ways.
My ideas for this include:
*Slightly upping the rate that Struggling builds the meter, which would also require tuning to Boil Over and Decisive Strike.
*Less Hooks and/or a more fixed layout to where they spawn.
*Decreasing the rarity of Hook perks, both for Survivors and Killers (In the best scenario if all things get worked on evenly, otherwise this becomes a terrible idea).
*Increasing the time for sabotaged hooks to respawn (Again, this is a best case scenario. As it is right now, unless you're doing a sabotage daily, there is no point for people to be sabotaging hooks because they respawn far too quickly, but I do not believe they should vanish entirely from the game either, RIP Saboteur Perk).
*Hooks "disappearing" from the map depending on how many Survivors are left (Not my idea, I don't particularly agree with it, but a friend suggested that, so there it is).
And please fix Generator placement. Please. Too often will we get Generators hunked together, making them hard to get whether it be beginning to late game. If they're not repaired by mid-game with three people alive, odds are they won't be worked on at all. Generators in the center, however, are fine, if not problematic when they're completely exposed and spawn in a place where one or two people can only work on it. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's annoying when it's the most viable generator left, but also the most dangerous one to go for.
The only real idea I have for it is having a Rare perk to make more Generators. It shouldn't be common enough that the map is littered with them, but good enough to use when you find it, while also making it so they don't stack with each other. That would not be fun at all for the Killer.
The next aggravating problem is Hitboxes. The Killers should completely have an effective range on where they can hit someone, but they should not be able to hit all the way across a pallet just after getting across, or right after a successful vault. There's been plenty of wiggle room for this, but based on what we've seen, Myers, Spirit and the Wraith seem to have some really excessive hitboxes. I can be safely out of their red-cone and they'll still hit me or if I, or other players, successfully juke behind a Killer, will still get hit by their hitbox, even if the two are back-to-back with each other. We've tested this quite a bit in Kill Your Friends as well as typical Survivor/Killer match-ups. Lag seems to play a small part, if only slightly influencing how and when these go off but, for the most part, it occurs with the most stable internet available.
This is one of the more technical tweaks and is really up for discretion, but at the same time, it feels like I can hit and get hit way too easily most of the time. It should be as difficult for Killers to hit us as it is for Survivors to get away effectively. I've had knee-jerk reactions, thinking that Survivors should be able to run faster, but then chases would never end and killing would be a chore. That's my thoughts on the matter.
The last and final thing I really need to talk about is Camping. I don't know what has happened to these Killers, but for the last week or so, we've gotten nothing but Killers who do not abandon hooked people. Despite the complaints I've heard over it, I don't believe it's a problem with incentive or merit, I simply find it to be a problem. Killers lately just seem really bad at being Killers. I've gone through a variety of different Killers who can annihilate a party without having to resort to such a tactic. From people who play Trapper no less, who spend their time smartly like trapping windows, pallets and thick grass areas. These people who Camp, especially from the beginning of the match, simply look like terrible players to me.
I don't know if anyone else has thought of it, but I have a perfect solution. A penalty system.
My idea is to create a timer. Once you Hook a Survivor, you have between 5-10 seconds to get a certain amount of meters away. I can't say what that distance should be, but it should be far enough that the Killer can patrol an area for rescuers (not a bad practice), but still give Survivors enough incentive to come to the rescue and have a chance at getting away. Not a guarantee, but a chance.
If the Killer fails to do this, it should be a penalty of one or two things.
Either:
*A gradual or certain percentage of loss to their Bloodpoints and/or;
*A penalty at the end of the match that reduces their Mark Progress to either 0 or -1.
I do not believe that there is an ample excuse to allow Camping behavior to exist and, as far as I've been able to tell, either too many people do it or nothing is being done from both the rating/reporting system. I will note that before we had the season reset, things felt a lot more balanced with them and the Camping Killer was only seen once every 5 to 6 games.
Ever since then, it's grown so bad however on PS4 that my friends have debated leaving the game altogether, frustrated by their behavior. We don't tend to care if they come back once in a while or, like in the case of Myer's, goes to the edge of the map to watch the Hook from afar. What we care about is when they refuse to move more than a few meters away or worse, stand directly in front of the Hook and slap the survivors with their melee, doing nothing except boosting their egos.
I don't want to leave this game because of it, but as it is I'm also getting extremely tired of that particular issue. If nothing else gets tweaked, if only Camping becomes actually adequately punished in-game, we will all be happier and probably stay. I do not believe the current system of handling it is working. Something needs to happen to keep these Killers from becoming, what we've elected to call them, "sweaty tryhards".
Thanks for reading. Hope it means something.
Comments
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The thing is, the developers feel that camping is a legitimate strategy. I completely agree with your points regarding it, and with the hitbox issues. So many times I have played as a killer and swung at a survivor knowing it shouldn't hit but then it does and I just kind of...stop and wonder where this game went wrong.
It's sad that even as a killer main, I'm at the point of quitting this game. I can get to rank 1 killer and not even bat an eyelash because it's that easy. I figured I would try my hand at survivor with my fiance to see how hard it is and all we are ever met with is camping, tunnelling killers. It's sad, really. And I just don't see much of a point to keep this game any longer. It's honestly extremely saddening because i used to enjoy it but now they've made it too easy to be a killer. My nephew played on my other account at rank 15 killer and he got a four kill. How can a 6 year old play this game and manage a four kill without camping? That's sad. It shows that it takes no skill anymore.0 -
1. The basement IS MEANT TO BE A DANGEROUS PLACE and getting a survivor in there IS MEANT TO BE A GAME WINNING SITUATION FOR THE KILLER
2. If you go down you are meant to get hooked, how many second chances do you need? Wiggling off is insanely detrimental to the killer and is not meant to happen often ar all, it only exists so the killer can't basement you every time.
3. If you get 3 genned that is your fault, repair generators strategically or suffer the consequences
4. Survivors are favoured in chases at the moment, you are new and thus bad and don't know this, additionally all killer lunges are exactly the same, the only exception being tier 3 myers, who intentionally has a longer lunge
5. Penalties for camping where tested in the past, survivors abused them massively by swarming and looping around hooks to punish a killer for no reason, you don't deserve to get unhooked every time
maybe instead they should reward not camping, the devs have already decided that camping is a legitimate tactic
if you cannot win games playing in SWF, which is absolute easy mode, then you and your friends are bad players, the game is not the problem, you are, because currently it is way to easy for survivors to win every single game.
tldr; this is just your typical survivor biased drivel, thank god you aren't a game designer4 -
yeet already summed it up pretty well.^^
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Basement is meant to be dangerous, the killer is supposde to have the upper hand there.
Wiggling is a mechanic introduced such that the killer cant bring every survivor he downed into the basement, it is in no way meant to be a free escape.
There are so much hooks on the map because roughly one year ago when sabotaging was stronger, it was common to let all survivors bleed out because there simply were no hooks to hook them. Survivors complained, so ofc that got fixed too.
Sabotaging is buffed next patch and hooks are gonna be reduced again, so I wonder where this will lead this time.....
If you have problems with camping killers, simply equip BT. Unless you face a chainsaw, you can unhook them guaranteed with your SWF coordination bdy bodyblocking and BT. (one of the reasons the game is so broken btw)
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Okay.
If implemented, all these changes, would make playing Killer worse than when we had pallet vacuums.
Rank 1 SWF would utterly be unstoppable.You need some gens placed together because if everyone is on a gen, you literally cannot win as Killer. Playing Killer is 100% about time management.
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There is apparently a new punishment coming for campers staying around the hook resulting in a degraded Chase emblem. As it stands, I don't feel like the basement is dangerous enough. The only one issue i have with it are killers standing in the middle of the stairs and blocking the basement from being entered to save a survivor. Which is really griefy.
The biggest problem you as a survivor will face at higher ranks is slugging.. Not the basement. Simply stay away from the basement if it scares you so bad and strategically do generators(ie: start in the middle and work your way outwards)
With this new Emblem change for killers camping, this is an inadvertent nerf to Insidious. Which can actually be fun to play from time to time.
For hooks, on the PTB they are now no closer than 24m from each other unless offerings are used. So there are now less hooks, and less pallets. Also, 99%ing Hooks and saboing it as a killer comes towards it is being smart about Sabotaging. You can't just mow down hooks anymore. They regenerate. Which i'm glad for. Now they need to let Hex totems re-light and respawn the perk because its unfair that a killer can have their perks become useless.
I feel like you also mistake Camping for Hook Defending. If i see scratches after I hook a survivor, odds are i'm not going anywhere. Or the exit gates being powered. This is not camping. This is playing Defense. Which is why Blood Warden is such a sultry beast and i love it.
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Everybody above pretty much covered it. The only valid complaint I saw was gens, but that is a matter of strategy. Survivors should get an idea of placement before just knocking them out, that's how you prevent a gen trifecta.Post edited by DemonDaddy on0
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When I play survivor, we -as a team- mostly die, because I see my team rushing from one near gen to the next nearest gen; automatically creating a cluster at the end.
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@yeet said: --you are new and thus bad and don't know this--
That's pretty much where I stopped caring about what you were saying. Moving on.
@DeadByFlashlight said: If you have problems with camping killers, simply equip BT. Unless you face a chainsaw, you can unhook them guaranteed with your SWF coordination bdy bodyblocking and BT.
Unfortunately, coordination is not always possible. If I had a guarantee at least 3 of my friends would play and co-ordinate, you'd probably be right. Alas, it is usually not the case. Rarely do we get our fourth friend to help out and, even then, most of the time it's only me and one other friend. Our experience becomes gauging what the other pair is doing and acting accordingly. Half the time we see them practically giving themselves up to the Killer, going in to save each other far too soon. BT can help, but that's only the most ideal of circumstances and if only we all played like you assume, diving on the Hook with BT on. Call me bad or whatever, but I'd rather have the Killer barely see me at all and my friends tend to play it that way too. It's a lot more satisfying dancing around a Killer and helping at least one other person survive because they never saw me
@projecteulogy said: Now they need to let Hex totems re-light and respawn the perk because its unfair that a killer can have their perks become useless.
I would almost agree with you on that front, if it weren't for the fact that some Hexes used together can cause incredibly unfair, or even impossible, situations for Survivors to get out of. Worst if all, when they exploit the entire situation.
We once had a match against a Freddy who used Ruin, No One Escapes Death, Haunting Ground and I think Huntress' Lullaby, but I can't be certain of that one. I just remember the first three. He then had add-ons that made action speed near impossible when pulled into the dream world, beyond impossible if he pulled you in a second time. A couple of us managed to wake up a grand total of two times before it was over. No gens got done, Freddy spent no time actually chasing who he pulled in. He made sure to lock in everyone, then picked people off. It ended with all of us on the ground, being Hooked one by one. Even if we had managed to find his totems and break them, by the time it mattered it was over.
Spending the time to find and get rid of the totems is time lost on finding items, keeping an eye on the Killer and getting generators done. I've been in plenty of games when we'd clear the totems and still lose to a Killer who's good enough. The Hexes are to initiate a challenge. Not to keep Survivors pinned. Recurring Hexes would effectively be the end of Survivors. Would YOU play this game if you had to deal with that eternally? No thanks. It's a game of cat and mouse with checks and balances, not whack-a-mole.
I feel like you also mistake Camping for Hook Defending.
Not at all. It doesn't make sense for a Killer to leave a Hook when the Gates light up, hell I can understand it when they start doing it when there is one or two left. That's ensuring the Killer's points and their participation in this game, as well as incentive for the Altruistics scores to kick in.
No. I'm talking about hard camping from the get go. The crap of having a Killer stand right by their Hook without even flinching, only caring if a Survivor could possibly go for a grab, not chasing them for more than a few meters at best before hogging it. THAT is the kind of camping that gets my blood boiling. That for no apparent reason, before even the first or even second generator gets done, they tag you and decide they're gonna sit and have a picnic.
And before you snipe with "--everyone should use BT--" please try to consider not everyone is a pro-gamer. Most with ineffectual games like these want to try and enjoy something even when it's a bit broken and the fact that this company has done a lot to try and fix these issues, gives me hope they do care, which makes the intermediates like me and the casuals like most, to complain harder about what is fair and not.
"Get Good Scrub" frankly is BS and does nothing but keep more people away from trying to enjoy games.
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@TrueGamerDruid said:
@yeet said: --you are new and thus bad and don't know this--
That's pretty much where I stopped caring about what you were saying. Moving on.
@DeadByFlashlight said: If you have problems with camping killers, simply equip BT. Unless you face a chainsaw, you can unhook them guaranteed with your SWF coordination bdy bodyblocking and BT.
Unfortunately, coordination is not always possible. If I had a guarantee at least 3 of my friends would play and co-ordinate, you'd probably be right. Alas, it is usually not the case. Rarely do we get our fourth friend to help out and, even then, most of the time it's only me and one other friend. Our experience becomes gauging what the other pair is doing and acting accordingly. Half the time we see them practically giving themselves up to the Killer, going in to save each other far too soon. BT can help, but that's only the most ideal of circumstances and if only we all played like you assume, diving on the Hook with BT on. Call me bad or whatever, but I'd rather have the Killer barely see me at all and my friends tend to play it that way too. It's a lot more satisfying dancing around a Killer and helping at least one other person survive because they never saw me
@projecteulogy said: Now they need to let Hex totems re-light and respawn the perk because its unfair that a killer can have their perks become useless.
I would almost agree with you on that front, if it weren't for the fact that some Hexes used together can cause incredibly unfair, or even impossible, situations for Survivors to get out of. Worst if all, when they exploit the entire situation.
We once had a match against a Freddy who used Ruin, No One Escapes Death, Haunting Ground and I think Huntress' Lullaby, but I can't be certain of that one. I just remember the first three. He then had add-ons that made action speed near impossible when pulled into the dream world, beyond impossible if he pulled you in a second time. A couple of us managed to wake up a grand total of two times before it was over. No gens got done, Freddy spent no time actually chasing who he pulled in. He made sure to lock in everyone, then picked people off. It ended with all of us on the ground, being Hooked one by one. Even if we had managed to find his totems and break them, by the time it mattered it was over.
Spending the time to find and get rid of the totems is time lost on finding items, keeping an eye on the Killer and getting generators done. I've been in plenty of games when we'd clear the totems and still lose to a Killer who's good enough. The Hexes are to initiate a challenge. Not to keep Survivors pinned. Recurring Hexes would effectively be the end of Survivors. Would YOU play this game if you had to deal with that eternally? No thanks. It's a game of cat and mouse with checks and balances, not whack-a-mole.
I feel like you also mistake Camping for Hook Defending.
Not at all. It doesn't make sense for a Killer to leave a Hook when the Gates light up, hell I can understand it when they start doing it when there is one or two left. That's ensuring the Killer's points and their participation in this game, as well as incentive for the Altruistics scores to kick in.
No. I'm talking about hard camping from the get go. The crap of having a Killer stand right by their Hook without even flinching, only caring if a Survivor could possibly go for a grab, not chasing them for more than a few meters at best before hogging it. THAT is the kind of camping that gets my blood boiling. That for no apparent reason, before even the first or even second generator gets done, they tag you and decide they're gonna sit and have a picnic.
And before you snipe with "--everyone should use BT--" please try to consider not everyone is a pro-gamer. Most with ineffectual games like these want to try and enjoy something even when it's a bit broken and the fact that this company has done a lot to try and fix these issues, gives me hope they do care, which makes the intermediates like me and the casuals like most, to complain harder about what is fair and not.
"Get Good Scrub" frankly is BS and does nothing but keep more people away from trying to enjoy games.
seriously and unironically;
GET GOOD SCRUB0
