Survivor - Shift+W Nerf when?
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Yes he did.
Back to our discussion, what do you respond?
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>I was hoping you'd say that. A three gen isn't necessarily a winning position for killer. You can still mess it up. A 3 gen in the corner of the map will always allow you to get cut off. I don't think building a 3 gen strat in the middle of the map is a good idea unless you're a prep killer with ruin up or something. Most 3 gens are in fact on one side of the map. Many maps have limited central generators which is in the survivors best interests to complete first.
There's the difference between messing things up and having no chance to do actually anything to win.
Midwich corridor gens is one example of such situation. Another example (As far as we're talking about 3gen, even though the problem isn't only about difficulty in pressuring such generators) is 3 gens being located in a "line.
For example, imagine Pale rose. One gen is between the shack and small boat. The other is near the corner and the shack, the last one is near withered dock (in the lowground). Here's a badly scaled scheme of Pale Rose.
Two gens (first and last one) are generators that are impossible to pressure because survivor would just run away (either in the direction of the dock or small boat) and not only lure killer far away, but also waste a lot of theirs time. In both situations killer is approaching from the side that opposes the "open field" for w+shift and going from the other way is impossible, since you have literally no time to lose or you'll lose the gen.
You can project that kind of situation on any other similar map where such situation might occur.
In any case, killer is either forced to let go of gen and very likely lose or just waste a lot of time in vain for the same result, unless he plays hostage doc with ruin totem right in this triangle who doesn't care about chasing survivors and enjoys running back and forth for 30 minutes until survivors give up.
>There is also no map that does this. Keep substituting the numbers and the answer will still be: No. There is no map that does this. No matter what map it is, there are generators in worse positions than others for survivor. Getting cut off is a fundamental part of killer initiation.
Don't really get what your point is. Of course there are bad generator spawns, like the one in the corner of pale rose I schemed above. The point is that there's a lot of gen spawns on many maps like swamp, cornfields, mcmillan, red forest, etc, etc where survivor basically is completely safe as long as he doesn't trigger chase and follow a path which can't be cut because of the obstacles on the map (pale rose example, gen3, killer has to follow survivor instead of cutting their path because of the obstacle that can't be bypassed)
>Regardless of what position you're in the game. I'd highly recommend getting survivors off their bad generators. They're bad because if you start chase there, you're likely taking a hit.
The ones that usually pop first? Like I said, it's less about generators (which I used an example of how w+shift can be unfair), but more about a possibility for survivor not to trigger chase and thus get a lot of extra time for their team without putting any effort into it.
Another example of w+shift unfairness that isn't directly related to gens is OoO exploiters who find a huge obstacle (like ones in Gas Heaven) and run around them with OoO or do the same on second floor of midwich. This is getting fixed sooner or later, however this has been a thing for quite a while.
>Then we agree on that. No because there is no map where all the generators killers can't do anything to them. There's a reason why Otzdarva gets more stressed over losing one particular generator to another. He understand what a generator he can afford to lose is and isn't.
Guess so. However there's too much too "safe" generators and that's not really good.
As for Otz, I would be triggered too, if I saw last three gens being spread out or placed in such a way that I have to spend half a minute to reach each of them.
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above
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While I agree that are too many killers who are acrimonious about holding w for no conceivable reason, there's no need to be so salty in return.
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Firstly I appreciate the time and effort you put into this response. Nice diagram.
In that scenario you wouldn't be pathing like that you have LoS of all three gens in your diagram. Wouldn't it be smarter to position yourself in the centre or position yourself between the boat and jetty then corral the survivors into getting cut off? No offence but your choice of pale rose is like best case for killer. I don't see how you could lose as killer in that setup besides keys. Those tiles besides shack are not hard to get hits on. You don't take the longest route to the generator then towards the survivor. You take the hypotenuse to get to the survivor. Right?
My point with that paragraph was that while there are safer gens in each map there is always enough unsafe generators in each map that will get you hit if the killer patrols it. 5/7 generators need to be completed meaning no matter what map the survivors must complete these unsafe generators. Meaning it's up to the killer to macromanage this is my point.
I have no arguments with OoO on Gas Heaven. That's ridiculous and uninteractive. Hopefully removed soon. It detracts from a pvp game.
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Like I said, the main problem is that survivors simply follow w+shift paths in such situations. Two survivors on gen 1 for example, the other 1 on gen3. Even if you stand in center and visually control any of these gens, survivors would just leave the moment you head in their direction, then they would just return when you leave and so on. Same situation on the other gen.
>My point with that paragraph was that while there are safer gens in each map there is always enough unsafe generators in each map that will get you hit if the killer patrols it. 5/7 generators need to be completed meaning no matter what map the survivors must complete these unsafe generators. Meaning it's up to the killer to macromanage this is my point.
Yeah, they need to be completed and their completion should be possible, however at the same time it shouldn't be easy or free. So basically there should be a way for survivor to stand a chance if killer suddenly appears near them, however that shouldn't be as easy as I illustrated in the examples I provided.
>I have no arguments with OoO on Gas Heaven. That's ridiculous and uninteractive. Hopefully removed soon. It detracts from a pvp game.
That's one of the most extreme cases of w+shift problem and I really hope it's getting fixed soon too. My guess and hope is for reworked chase trigger mechanism
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Yes it's a losing situation if ruins down and you have no mobility. I think that's okay for balance.
I would be for chase engaging much earlier if you want bloodlust earlier but imagine how good PWYF would get? How do you keep that perk fair? Also want to reiterate that you're still committing the same time to catch up realistically but you're already in bloodlust by the time you're at a mind gameable tile.
I don't recall you asking for a chase trigger buff. I thought you were wanting something along the lines of base movespeed increase out of chase for all killers but your suggestion is a fair qol change I think.
I wish we could've had as much as an in depth discussion on spirit. This debate was much better. Thanks.
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And that's the whole point of the two hit mechanic which is at the base of the game.
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This times 100
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I agree that sometimes losing situations are okay for balance, although I don't think losing situations that you can't really prevent by following natural flow of the game are fair. There's always must be something you do to, if not to turn the tide, but at least get good out of worst.
>I would be for chase engaging much earlier if you want bloodlust earlier
Yeah, I think that would solve the problem. Even thought it would certainly need testing, but I'm seeing this being a very obvious and simple QoL solution.
>imagine how good PWYF would get? How do you keep that perk fair?
Rework it? I never liked the concept of this perk, it was strong and viable in 2016-2017, but now it's pretty useless and outdated for most killers since it has no synergy with their powers.
>Also want to reiterate that you're still committing the same time to catch up realistically but you're already in bloodlust by the time you're at a mind gameable tile.
That's one of problems. Possible solution (that wouldn't be very easy though) is to create a separate "chase" mode. Let's call this "distant" and "close" chase.
Close chase could be the one kind of chase we have now - fast music plays when survivor is within X range of the killer and is running.
Distant chase could trigger on indefinite range if a certain condition is met. For example, a some kind of reveal mechanic could be used: If survivor/his aura is outside 16 meters range from killer and is within a certain area inside killer's screen. For example central 90 degrees in killer's screen. When such conditions are made, a certain music would play for the killer (maybe even survivor, so they now they've been spotted and killer is quickly catching up) and killer would be quickly gaining "bloodlust" stacks that disappear once the "close" chase enables.
Basically: Survivor is close - no bloodlust (or bloodlust tier 1 at best after 12/24 seconds of no broken pallets), fast music. Survivor is far - tense slow music, quickly stacking bloodlust (f/e up to 3 stacks every 6 seconds so maximum speed achieved in 18 seconds) that instantly disappears once killer enters "lethal" range aka starts a close chase with any survivor or brakes LoS of survivor's aura/model.
That certainly has a lot of problems, but I'm already seeing how this could solve a problem of slow immobile killers and w+shift thing in particular.
>I don't recall you asking for a chase trigger buff. I thought you were wanting something along the lines of base movespeed increase out of chase for all killers but your suggestion is a fair qol change I think.
That's one of solutions, although base movement speed increase out of chase would certainly be exploited by moonwalking, as we learnt with old legion and his wonderful deep wounds.
In any case, solving the problem with least amount of popping up problems would be really difficult, so I just hope that devs would one day focus on a more major problem and would address shift+w simultaneously with that hypothetical solution to the other problem.
>I wish we could've had as much as an in depth discussion on spirit. This debate was much better. Thanks.
Thank you too.
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The idea of a distant only 'mega-bloodlust' is probably one of the best solutions to the 'Oh hey it turns out as players get better at the game more people understanding the math of chases makes a lot of interactions really uninteractive.'
It makes the speed boost a way to get to a series of obstacles, not to generate 40 seconds of chase, and fixes the 'duo gen assault' which is fairly map agnostic (Ironically Midwitch is one of the maps you CAN'T easily do this because its a huge endless corridor).
The main problem is detection of chases. And, as you noted @profezia there are a LOT of ways for solutions to backfire.
One other hypothetical solution is 'out of chase' movement speed buff in general for M1 killers. A lot of DBD's problematic interactions come down to lots of killers seriously lacking map mobility, and the killers that people tend to find healthy or enjoyable on both sides either have powers that don't demand a ton of mobility (ex: Huntress), or have a lot of mobility to allow them to be very dynamic (Blight, Billy, Nurse, Wraith, and Oni) and interact very frequently. There is a reason Billy doesn't camp a lot despite being able to instadown rescuers, for example, and that is because he pressures the map well, and the W problem or the 'tag team gen' problem aren't problems for them not just because of the instadown but because of how they relate to open ground. Not ever killer needs to be as extreme as that, but it may be that some sort of 'reverse bloodlust' makes sense. DBD is the most fun for both sides when there is interaction and it isn't ideal from a game design perspective how easy it is for survivors to go a whole game without ever being near the killer on larger maps. Minimizing downtime where the killer isn't chasing anyone might be the best place to 'get back' the time killers lose on open ground chases, more than touching the chase itself.
But it is, again, not easy because its a really subtle problem deeply baked into the game's core systems and unpicking it is super hard. Again, its not bad at all the survivor is running away, its just linear motion over open terrain being an optimal strategy is really silly but being able to get a lot of distance in order to get to the first obstacle is also kinda important and the current movespeed differential is fair inside the interactions the actual game exists in.
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Oh okay, so you're the ONLY one who also practices and makes their own opinion then too?
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When will survivors learn that the only way they should play is to load in and AFK? Maybe find a way to notify the killer of your location first because otherwise it's toooo haaaard for them.
Not gonna lie, I been playing a lot more killer lately to get adepts and whatnot since the survivor side of things feel pretty complete. I really don't see what the big deal is and it's only validated my feelings that the killer mains who complain on this forum are either playing out of their league or have some issues where they aren't satisfied unless they can completely obliterate the opposing side every game, even if that means the opposing side is helpless.
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