Pop Goes The Weasel: Problem? Or not?
Half a pound of tuppenny rice
Half a pound of treacle
That's the way the money goes
Pop! goes the weasel.
Pop Goes The Weasel is a teachable perk for the Clown, and it's pretty balanced imo.
Opinions?
Up and down the city road, in and out of the eagle, that's the way the money goes, Pop! Goes the weasel, GoobyNugget.
Comments
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It's fine.
A reason to not camp and hurt their progress quite a bit.
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It's balanced.
That said, it was balanced before its nerf as well.
If Pop was a new perk released today it would have a pointless 60 second cooldown on it or something.
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It's only ever useful if you have a ton of pressure or with specific killers. If you go to a generator with someone on it after hooking someone and spend 2 seconds kicking it they will get around 10 seconds worth of distance if they just hold W which is most if not all of the time you saved by using it gone. With killers like Blight, Nurse, Spirit etc it's better.
A good simplification of it's power would be: If everyone is doing gens efficiently it's pretty weak and waste of a time to use most of the time. If only 1 person is on a gen and you keep using this perk on that, that gen will never get done.
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It is balanced. Its small nerf should be reverted, but it is not a big deal. This perk is fine.
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In my opinion, balanced but annoying. It only activates if a killer is doing well, and getting hooks. It can only be used on one generator, and honestly, 25% is not a huge amount of time. It takes a survivor 20 seconds to recover that lost progress, not counting any buffs towards gen speed (or de-buffs), or great skill checks.
Not to mention to use it you have to break from chase 9/10 times.
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It's one of the strongest killer perks in the game and it's surprisingly underrated. It's like Ruin in that it can win games singlehandedly, but instead of needing good RNG it relies on your skill in the chase and your gen defense (including not allowing survivors to get a favorable gen alignment late in the game).
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Its ok, i tend to like surge better in most cases because after you factor in: Looking around for flashlight saves, picking up the survivor, going to the hook, hooking the survivor, figuring out where i want to go next probably around 25 seconds have passed. During that 25 seconds, with the 8% from surge, i got 12 seconds of regression, which isn't much less than 20, and can hit multiple gens.
Honestly, i'd like to see pop become a baseline thing killers can do when kicking a gen, but at like 5%. That way survivors get punished for gen tapping, and so that kicking a gen actually is useful. Given that regression is 4 times less than a survivor repair speed, its pretty much a waste of time without pop. Then, they can buff pop to add to that base to increase it to 10%, and then when they get a hook the bonus is tripled to 30 for 45 seconds.
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Why should gen tapping be punished? I would argue the killer should be punished for kicking gens at the wrong times.
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Its perfectly balanced and what's more its earned for its use. A killer has to catch and hook a survivor to get use out of it. They earned that pop kick.
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Because it can be done in a chase. Survivors shouldn't be able to gen tap in a chase.
It takes 80 seconds to repair a gen, and 320 seconds to fully regress a gen. If the killer kicks a gen and then chases a survivor, it is likely that another one is going to come tap the gen or work on it within about 20-30 seconds. This amounts to regressing only about 4 seconds. Kicking gens takes far too much time for no benefit. At high MMR, it is actually bad for killers to ever kick gens, because the amount of time spent kicking, could be spent keeping up with the survivor.
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Because kicking gens is a absolute waste of time and regression can be regained in a matter of seconds.
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I think it's one of the most balanced perks killers have available, the ability to regress a gen by a significant amount shortly after hooking a survivor is a good example of earning your ability.
Sure it can get annoying, but that's because of how it's used, not the perk itself
1 -
Even with Pop kciking a gen is not always the most useful thing to do.
Personally I'd like to see a usefulness for kicking gen without needing 1 or 2 killer perks.
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Surge monkaS
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Cause tapping takes a literal fraction of a second and can be done mid chase and it nullifies the killers 2 second or whatever animation for kicking
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Why though? If someone is tapping a gen during a chase they're sacrificing distance to avoid regression. It's a calculated risk, not free.
You should only be kicking a gen if there's a fair amount of progress on it and you are reasonably confident that there are no nearby survivors who will be able to stop the regression. If survivors across the map (for example 20-30 seconds away, as you said) are forced to come to that gen because of the kick, that still could have wasted quite a bit of survivor time, so it might still be a fair decision even against a good team on comms.
I see no reason to buff kicking gens in any way. For one, I haven't seen any data to suggest high-skill killers need a boost. For two, this would increase the gap between SWF and solo because information on which gens are regressing becomes much more important when killers are systematically kicking more.
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Kicking is only a waste of time if you're kicking at bad times. There's no need for buffs to work around this; just use your head.
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It's a good perk. I rarely use it, though, since I usually have to go way out of my way to kick a gen.
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Poor Surge.
Needs its cooldown and basic attack requirement removed.
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If someone is tapping a gen during a chase they're sacrificing distance, and thereby shortening their chase in most cases, to avoid regression. It's a calculated risk, not free.
The killer also should not be kicking a gen right before they start chasing a survivor. If a survivor is tapping a given gen mid-chase and the killer isn't an idiot, that gen was likely kicked quite a bit before and that kick already gave the killer good value. Otherwise the killer just made a bad play and lost like 2 seconds of their time as punishment. Seems reasonable.
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Looking at you blood echo!
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Blood Echo as well!
We could go on and on. There are so many perks that have completely unnecessary cooldowns on them.
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it loses next to no distance.
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Gen tapping is usually done near loops with a pallet or window & it's worth doing.
Gen regression is 4 times slower than gen progression (80sec vs 320s). That's what making ruin "so strong" & make kicking useless/barely useful because the regression you put on a gen is negated by the distance survivor make which increase your chasing time.
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The only perk that has a cooldown for justifiable reasons is Thrilling Tremors
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If you stop for even half second to tap the gen, that loses you 2.3 meters against a 115% speed killer. Normally it takes the killer about four seconds to close that much distance.
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Weird, usually a big arguement would've started by now
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I'd actually disagree on that one.
Remove the cooldown, but limit it to one activation per down to block abuse.
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If the killer is chasing someone around a regressing gen, one of two things is almost certainly true: 1) That gen was regressing for quite a while and the killer already got good value out of their kick, or 2) The killer kicked that gen at a bad time.
I am well aware of gen regression speeds. All the more reason for the killer to be smart about when they kick gens instead of complaining about tapping. If they're smart, the time investment will be handsomely rewarded, If not, they deserve to lose that time.
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statistically speaking its not a problem but you cannot imagine how painful it is to see your 99d gen get killed by teleporting freddy
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If a gen has been regressing for more than 20-30sec without ruin or 1/2gen poping then survivor are making some huge mistake.
If you know a survivor is being chase, chance is he was doing a gen not so long ago and unless you're on the complete opposite side of the map or you're above 50% progression on your gen you should take a look.
Same how when you see a killing using pop and having some easy down next said gen you should let it regress for up to 80s to let the killer leave the area because pop= 80s of regression.
It's not the killer's fault if survivor play in a selfish matter and even for solo Q you should be punish for doing so, you're in a 4vs1 and even in solo Q if you use your info correctly and play your card's right the killer will have to work to get a 2k+.
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It is not a problem, a very balanced yet strong killer perk that rewards killers for doing their objective. Very good perk.
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Pop really isn't good imo.
20% just isn't that much in the trade off for a chase + hook process. You need survivors to not be spacially aware and just continually get hooked by gens. Most of the time when a killer excels with Pop its more because the survivors were feeding it to him.
I will say that it shines on killers with the ability to down extremely fast, most instadowns and Spirit/Nurse. But I think Corrupt is better if only using one gen perk as the early game is the most important for a killers mounting pressure.
The timer nerf didn't really affect it much, crossing a map to use it, especially on a slower killer was just a waste of time and honestly I'm OK with it as it makes Repressed Alliance actually useable.
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I knew you had some sort of hidden agenda with these threads. lol
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The perk is balanced and quite healthy for a game a user of pop will never camp or tunell because they will go for nearest progressing gen to kick it I think it's fine but it's just my perspective
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Exactly, the only time I have amazing value out of pop was like in Hawkins at the gen with 1 drop off and 1 stair (dunno how to call that room). There were like 3 survivor and most were injured. I downed one, used pop and kept trying to finish the gen but I was downing them faster than they could work on the gen.
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That is not true. Even if survivors are on comms, it's often not the right decision to run across the map to switch to a regressing gen. It obviously depends on perks, the killer, the map, the distance, etc., but all of that transit time is time you could have been spending on gens, so it's not as simple as "just run over there and do the regressing gen first". If the killer hadn't kicked the gen in this hypothetical, you would have stayed on your gen and the other gen wouldn't have regressed at all. That's definitely not better.
In solo queue you can almost never afford to just cruise around looking for gens a survivor in a chase might have been working on just in case it's regressing. If you weren't already on a gen and you saw that survivor get chased off a gen, totally, go nuts, but if you're not sure, any time you spend looking for possible regressing gens is time you spend not doing gens. Even if that gen was regressing, you put charges into gens four times faster than regression removes them. So, by staying on your gen, you're still putting a net .75 charges/second into the gen. Cruising around looking for regressing gens will very likely be worse than that, and it's guaranteed to be worse than that if the other gen isn't regressing.
Not cruising around looking for teammates gens that might be regressing isn't selfish; It's usually the best play. Even if Ruin's up, leaving your gen to try to prevent regression on another gen is almost always counterproductive; the other gen would have to be close and have substantially more progress than yours.
Edit: I misinterpreted "1/2 gen popping" as "using Pop on 1/2 gens", not "1/2 gens being completed". Your statement is more true, then, but it's still not a counterargument to kicking the gens. Would you rather: 1) 1 or 2 gens done, a third gen with a lot of progress, and like two seconds of time savings, or 2) 1 or 2 gens done and a third gen with very little progress? Every once in a while those two seconds might be the difference between chasing someone off a gen at 99% and getting a free down or some awesome regression out of it, but most of the time option 2 is clearly the better one. You just need to make sure you're likely to either get good regression or force a survivor to waste time in transit before you kick.
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You are absolutely not optimal. You can run in one quadrant of a map in like 10s or less, it is more worth finishing a progressed gen than working on a new one unless that slowly lead to a 3gen situation.
If ruin is up it is absolutely worth going for a gen that has 50%+ progression instead of working on a new one since Ruin's regression is at 200%. One less gen to do put more pressure on the killer than having progression on 2 gen when ruin is up.
Of course it is situational but if I know a gen has been worked on I will absolutely take a loot at it unless I'm at the complete opposite side of the map.
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It is more worth it if you know it is close, and especially if it's regressing. It's not worth it to run around looking for a gen that may or may not have progress on it, that may or may not be regressing, and that may or may not be close to you. In solo queue you often simply don't know, and in that case the better approach is usually to stay on your gen.
With Ruin, you need to be even more sure you know where that gen is and roughly how much progress is on it before leaving your gen. Otherwise, you don't know if the other gen is actually a better one to finish. Leaving your gen means you let your gen and the other gen regress in the meantime, and then risk finding that other gen only to realize that it's less completed than your gen was when you left it.
It is situational, as you say, but given the information you typically have in solo queue sticking to your gen is almost always going to be the better play.
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I haven't seen any data to suggest high-skill killers need a boost
Watch a tournament, watch literally every streamer and content creator: Scott Jund, Tru3ta1ent, Otz. Everyone knows that this game, at the highest level play, is survivor sided so much so that in tournaments the only viable strategy is that when you aren't playing nurse or spirit you must face camp to get any kills.
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You actually pointed back to three of the four typical arguments I see for this in one comment!
Tournaments are not an effective representation of actual game balance for a bunch of reasons. First, there are usually lots of bans - maps, loadout items, cosmetics, and even play styles (e.g. slugging, tunneling, repairing while injured) are often not allowed. Second, they are forced to define a win condition and this pushes players to play differently. For example, a tournament based on BP gain will result in survivors making different plays than a tournament in which kills/escapes or emblems determine the winner. In the real world you'll have a whole mix of different goals; some people who just want to escape, some people are just trying to do dailies and rift challenges, some people are trying to pip above all else, etc. Finally, there is no skill rating for the participants and no robust competitive scene, so it's hard to say how much the skill of the players is affecting results and how much is game balance.
Streamers aren't a great reflection of game balance because they are often substantially better and more experienced than the players they're matched up with. MMR may one day change this, but it's not there yet. For now, both survivor mains and killer mains are putting out their 50 match win streak videos and such, because matchmaking is a much more important factor in the outcome than actual game balance right now.
If you're more concerned with streamer/public opinion than how their matches actual go, though, that's just the common belief fallacy.
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If the highest skill matches start to skew towards survivor once MMR is more mature / functional, I'll be the first one calling for balance changes. I haven't seen anything to suggest that's the case, though, and given that matchmaking is such a huge factor in match outcomes right now I'm not sure why so many folks have made game balance the boogeyman.
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Because: Math
That side that starts the regression: one person, several second animation time.
The side that ends the regression: four people, instant fix.
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It's all about game awareness & experience. You saw claudette in one side of the map starting a gen, you went 2 gen away, finished your gen and knew she was chased away. Might as well take a look at that gen instead of going to a complete new gen, chance is killer might not have regress it/still has 10-20% in it which is better than starting a new gen.
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It's a great and balanced perk, I'd be surprised if people say it's unhealthy for the game.
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The reason tournaments add rules & restriction is mostly because the game is unbalanced at the very top. Once survivor learn to use all tools at their disposition, even without comms, they start dominating killer.
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This is ignoring the regression that occurs in between. Unless you have Pop you should not be kicking gens that have survivors around them. If killers are wasting time on this, that is on them to learn. There's no need to give a buff to compensate for bad play.
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Well sure, in the situation that you know which gen a survivor was on, when they started, and roughly when they got chased away, you're not on a gen with a lot of progress on it, and you're also not too far away from their gen they were working on, totally, go for it. Most of the time in solo queue this isn't going to be the case, though.
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dead hard problem or not
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Source for the game being unbalanced at the very top even without comms?
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It was always fine, even before the unnecessary nerf.
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