Pop Goes The Weasel: Problem? Or not?
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What weird logic. The mechanic is not strong, therefore it is the Killer's fault for using it? This is literally the best reason to buff something.
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Player experience, content creator, tournament having more restrictions on survivor perk & items, etc.
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You're missing the point. You should absolutely use it, but only in appropriate situations. In situations where survivors are not going to be able to get on the gen soon, that 2-3 seconds to kick the gen can ultimately net you quite a bit of time wasting (if survivors cross the map to stop the regression) and/or regression (if they don't, or if you intercept them). You shouldn't just kick any old gen.
The reason to buff something would be poor killer performance, not the usefulness of that one specific mechanic. It's just one of the many levers the devs can pull to affect overall balance, if needed.
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In other words, a combination of anecdotal evidence and common belief falacy? See my reply to Rainami for why tournaments don't say much of anything about game balance.
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used to be good, got nerfed for no reason, is still good but u have less time.
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It's a problem because it's not 60 seconds anymore like it should be.
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A perk shouldn't remove objective progress from the other side for doing own objective. It's too overpowered on high mobility killers. When it is only 3 gens left and a killer keeps popping a gen, then the perk literally wins the game. That is far from balanced if you ask me, especially when survivor perks have nothing similar. If a kiler isn't using Ruin, then they are using this perk instead. That tells a lot.
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YOOO IT'S SLUZZY!
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Streamers aren't a great reflection of game balance because they are often substantially better and more experienced than the players they're matched up with. MMR may one day change this, but it's not there yet. For now, both survivor mains and killer mains are putting out their 50 match win streak videos and such, because matchmaking is a much more important factor in the outcome than actual game balance right now.
That's just it though. They are substantially better and more experienced than the players they're matched up with. They often literally play this game for a job, and have 5k+ hours in the game. And STILL, all of these people with more combined knowledge than probably everyone in this thread KNOW that the game is survivor sided. It's not even a debate.
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It's fine for the most part, but it works so well and easily with Spirit, Freddy, and Nurse that it's annoying at times.
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At the same time, gens go fast regardless. So it shouldn't really matter.
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It's relatively balanced. On some killers its insane (Blight, Spirit, Billy, etc.) But that's more of a problem with the killers than the perk, because most have to choose between kicking a gen and taking a chase
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you clearly dont know what it feels like. also, my solo queue team dies before we get to 2 gens so what are you talking about
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Sluzzy? On my post? It's a dream come true.
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this perk gets nerfed killers quit.
I got gen rushed by forever freddy in 4 minutes.
not even pop is enough to stop that #########
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It's certainly one of the more powerful perks in the game, but no more powerful than some of the survivor meta perks in my opinion.
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is fine, not all the killers are able to down survivors fast enought to be able to reach the gen anyways
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There is no way all streamers agree with that, for one, and regardless their opinion doesn't mean much without evidence to back it up. "I played in a few tournaments, and..." or "I get beaten badly by SWFs occasionally and I'm a good player" or "everyone agrees that..." aren't good arguments no matter who is making them. It is a debate until someone can provide a shred of rigorous underpinning to that point of view.
It's also a pointless argument so long as MMR isn't mature because survivors are statistically underperforming at high rank. Even if you're right and the game is survivor-sided at the highest skill levels, that will be irrelevant until matchmaking improves because squads capable of seizing that advantage are rare at best at high rank. If they weren't, kill rate would not spike so much at red rank. In the real world, for every decent team you face as killer, you're going to face several teams of solos, or boosted potatoes, or a mix of good and bad players. So long as this is the case, I see no reason for the constant "survivor OP" posts on the forum. Even if that balance issue exists at the highest skill ratings, red rank killers should be performing very well. For those that are not, it's probably because they're getting outplayed.
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They do though. Watch that debate scott had when they were talking about hooks vs kills. Literally every person in there didn't even debate the idea that survivors are too powerful at high level, it wasn't even a question, it was just a given. Scott even said at the beginning. "We all know that survivors at high skill are too powerful" It wasn't even part of the debate.
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i think up to 220secs is too much. It should be 30-35% of actual gen progress, not always 20secs
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So, in other words, Scott started his video with a common belief fallacy and as a result there's no room for debate?
I actually just watched the video, but, I didn't hear the "We all know that survivors..." quote, so you'll have to give me the time stamp for that. At any rate, he doesn't get into game balance in the video because it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
The video is entirely about how subjective "wins" are in Dead By Daylight. If anything, accepting that win conditions fundamentally aren't well-defined just makes arguing that one side is overpowered even harder to justify. Someone could call survivors OP because their win condition is 12 hooks and it's hard to 12-hook everyone, for example, but will that convince someone who cares first and foremost about raw kills/escapes, pips, BP gain, rift progress, etc.? Certainly not.
Edit: I've been watching more from these streamers - they seem to say that the absolute best survivor squads are OP based on tournaments as evidence, but also that those squads are extremely rare in public matches. Tournaments are not reflect the experience in a public match, though, even at the highest skills. Win conditions are different, matchups are determined by MMR in the public matches while tournaments use other methods, tournaments ban loadout items, maps, play styles, etc. In order to truly determine balance at the highest skill levels we need a mature MMR and lots of data from those highest-skill matches.
Edit 2: This comment by zarr may be interesting to you:
Post edited by notstarboard on0 -
You watched the wrong video. And it is not a fallacy. Literally just watch a marth stream sometime.
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So we agree that both tournament player & streamer are above the average player, good.
We agree that most if not all tournament have restriction, good. Those restriction mostly affect survivor, killer player mostly used the strongest killer and still struggle to win.
Survivor streamer (heck even lot of killer streamer when playing survivor) who often play alone, mind you, often bully the killer in their game, make them lose lot of time. Killer streamer will sweat even vs none swf who are very good at the game, especially if the killer use a mid to low tier killer but it does happen vs top tier killer.
Thing is the ranking system & match making that is based on it is so horrible that you don't often find 4 good survivor in the same game. You often have 1-2 good survivor and 2-3 decent one that are moderately to well under the killer's skill which balance things out for the match. The killer will still lose more than 1/4 of his time of the pretty good survivor, probably more than 30s each chase which is more than what survivor need to do gen and have 2-3 escape.
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Well you gotta consistently get hooks to get value and keep up the pressure. It doesnt reward camping. Quite balanced IMO especially after the Nerf.
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I've got 6k hours in this game. I likely know far more how it feels than you do. I'm just capable of considering that it's just a game.
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Survivors shouldn't be unable to undo regression in half a second. Regression is not strong enough to enable that. If a killer kicks a generator, the survivors should actually have to take the time to stop it instead of being able to immediately and with no downside stop the miniscule, slug-paced regression that killers get with zero effort or thought.
And it really wouldn't change anything about SWF or solo. It would simply be a QoL fix that prevents survivors from casually and mindlessly stopping the only basekit slowdown in the game.
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PGTW is fine imo. The only time I've gotten mad at it was when a clown was tunneling a jake and we were pounding the gens and trying to save the jake. He was caught and killed, while the 3 of us were on the last gen. The ace (i think) got off first when the killer was coming and the tapp and I decided to commit. At like 99%, the tapp got off and got a skill check. We both got off and the killer popped it and that literally destroyed the game for us. Still a fun match but damn.
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I guess it would be a tiny nerf survivor but if killer still mindlessly kick gen, that's 2sec he's not pressuring anyone. But yeah it would mostly be a QoL for killer.
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It's hard to use, which is annoying because it's a pretty strong perk but when you're put in a position where you can't use it, like being in a chase or the generator is too far away making the time investment pointless then it can be pretty pointless to have.
It's why Ruin will always be the superior perk. Better regression and it does it automatically, rewarding killers for chasing and applying pressure. Pop, I find really only is as devastating in a 3 generator or something.
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So link the right one. Common belief fallacy = "because everyone says so". I don't really care what streamer X or Y says unless they have a sound argument behind it.
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Regression would be very strong if survivors didn't stop it, which would often be the case if they couldn't tap gens. This would be a massive balance change I don't see a need to buff killers in the way. Speaking of zero effort or thought, it's really not a big deal to just use your head before kicking a gen. If you can't tap gens kicking them becomes just as braindead; who cares if survivors are in the area, kick gen = profit.
This does have SWF vs solo impacts. In a world where gen tapping is impossible, killers are much more likely to kick gens. If killers are kicking gens more frequently, SWF's knowledge of which gens are regressing becomes more important. If killers are kicking gens less frequently, that knowledge is less important.
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