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[LOCK THE THREAD PLEASE] The DS paradox explained to everyone.
[LOCK THE THREAD, IT WAS ABANDONED AND SOMEONE NECROED IT AND NOW I HAVE MY NOTIFICATIONS FLOODED BY A THREAD I DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN ANYMORE AFTER I THOUGHT IT WAS DEAD]
So everyone has been complaining how tunneling has increased after the ds nerf. But then run ds, no? Well, not exactly. And here is why:
Since ds is no longer God Mode, people run it less, so the killer sees there is no obsession so he tunnels. Then you take ds but now he sees the obsession and no longer tunnels. Now ds is a useless perk slot, since you will never get to use it as you are not tunneled.
See what I mean? TL;DR : No obsession, no ds so tunnel. You have ds, there is an obession so the killer no longer tunnels and now ds doesn't have any benefits so you have a wasted perk slot.
Comments
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It's not a wasted perk slot if it does indeed prevent the killer from tunneling. People who think perks are only useful if you get to use them need to look up MAD - and I don't mean the magazine.
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It's not a wasted perk slot if it stops the killer from tunnelling. Thus I still use it.
Paradox resolved.
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"You have ds, there is an obsession so the killer no longer tunnels and now ds doesn't have any benefits so you have a wasted perk slot."
It's preventing you from getting tunnelled isn't it?
Furthermore, if the KILLER is running any obsession perks, then they won't know if you have DS or not either. In those cases, it's much like before, you can run DS and manage to make use of it, or you can NOT run DS and benefit from not being tunnelled as the killers errs on the side of caution.
Besides, how many other perks can get wasted? Unbreakable = never get slugged, Head On = never comes by your locker, etc.
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I run STBFL on my M1 killers so I always have an obsession.
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Imo, they should just make the obsession appear each game. This way you don't need an obsession perk to make the killer be afraid of tunneling.
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First off. Obssession should be base kit, every game. No reason not to. As someone that doesn't need to tunnel seeing a red rank killer blatantly tunnel someone straight out of the game leaves a sour taste in my mouth and makes for an incredibly dull match.
Second I think they should have gone with a scaling bar. Start fixing a gen? DS drains at a 3/400% increased rate. I think its pretty stupid that simply tapping a gen cancels it entirely. Also making it so it disables when healed makes some player refuse heals and basically throw the game.
Or make it so that in cases of actual tunneling it just doesn't tick down whilst being chased and not slugged. Most tunneling killers are objectively bad at the game when you sit back and watch, but will eventually get the kill simply through attrition.
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So you are saying something that is designed and intended to be used in game shouldn't actually be used? Why don't you run Monstrous Shrine? Cause that's also something you won't ever get to use.
2 -
If a killer wants to tunnel then they do it regardless of if there is an obsession or not. I still use ds and have used it in matches regularly because it works just as well as it did before, but I have always used it for actual tunneling and not for god mode.
7 -
If you ask me personaly, if I'm tunneled I still have time to gen tap, that doesn't make me less tunneled. After I drop a pallet, I have enough time to heal the remaining 2% on the downed survivor and while looping I can heal, doesn't make me less tunneled. A huge increase in the drain makes sense if you ask me. But really high.
0 -
There should always be one obsession, no matter if there is an obsession perk in play or not. That would fix this issue. Of course tunneling and camping are a problem in and of itself, but at least it would fix the issue of increased camping, at least I'd hope.
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Totally a wasted perk slot. There are at least 10-15 perks better than DS now
0 -
Then don’t bring it. It’s your choice.
But don’t cry when you get tunnel.
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If you have time to progress the game(working on a gen or healing) then you shouldn't be worried about the killer doing the same(hooking and killing survivors). Killers shouldn't be punished for simply doing their objective even if you deem it unfair.
10 -
No, I'm saying that if you bring DS to avoid being tunneled and the threat of DS is enough to avoid being tunneled, then you successfully achieved your goal, even if you never got to stun the killer with the perk.
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It isn't unfair. I am very happy old ds is gone. However, as I said, just make any action deplete the ds time very fast (like, if you g9 to a gen, from 60 seconds i becomes a 6 second timer). Just speed it up very much when doing any action. I have time if the killer is breaking a pallet, that doesn't make me less tunneled.
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So let me get this straight, bringing DS makes the killer avoid tunneling, and bringing it means you'll be tunneled?
Unless you're saying the lack of an obsession will make every single killer decide its tunnel time, doesn't that mean its working as an anti-tunnel perk?
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Except you can bring any other obsession perk that will make the killer think there's a ds and also you get a use out of that perk. This is why I say it is useless.
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I don’t cry. If the killer tunneled Someone I kill myself at first hook and find a new match
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The issue here is that DS is a band-aid solution for an issue in the mechanics of the game. DS by itself doesn't stop or prevent tunnelling, it merely gives you 60 additional seconds of gameplay (aka taking your time to admire the floor tiles) which is why I never use it if the Killer wants to tunnel me, they are objectively bad and only want to make the game as quick and insufferable for me as a Survivor.
A fellow commentor mentioned it that they've gotten to red ranks without tunnelling, I have only gotten to green ranks, but I know a fair amount of players that have managed to reach red ranks without taking advantage of issues with mechanics. The paradox itself here is that we shouldn't need to waste a perk slot to resolve an issue with game design, but until we get an actual solution for this... we will have to deal with tunnelling and some Killers thinking they are good because they tunnelled off of hook.
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if the Killer wants to tunnel me, they are objectively bad and only want to make the game as quick and insufferable for me as a Survivor.
Your opponent is not bad for winning with a certain strategy. Quite the opposite, in fact. Can you name one game where winning makes you worse at the game than the guy who lost?
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That's not doing anything to hurt the killer, though. You are just ruining the game for your teammates, even worse then the tunneling killer is.
3 -
If you're that bad at chase & or do dumb #########, why a killer shouldn't be able to hook you right after you get unhooked? Also there are other perks you can combines to make it stronger like Second Wind (on you) or We'll Make It.
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I'm 100% for the mindset of other perks getting used more than the same 4 everybody uses.
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A lot of perks could be more viable if only they were slightly better. Second Wind achieve similar to DS but in a different way but was outside by DS. If it's cooldown was 10s it would have been seen more often ever before DS nerf.
Deliverance is quite good but again is outshine by other perk that can activate more often and/or are just stronger.
Both Deliverance & Second Wind need you to do something before it activate (heal or hook save), one can be activated only once, the other 2 times and both get countered if you're the first person being chase/hooked.
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"Now ds is a useless perk slot, since you will never get to use it as you are not tunneled."
Logical fallacy.
If you didn't get tunneled because there's an Obsession from running DS then it did in fact prevent you from getting tunneled. It did its job.
6 -
That's wanting the benefit of the perk without having to run it.
DS works by threatening the killer: there's an obsession, if the killer tunnels off the hook he risks wasting time and getting stabbed. If the killer does not tunnel off the hook, then DS is working. If the killer does tunnel off the hook and you're the one with DS, you get to make good on the threat. If the killer slugs to avoid DS, it's still working because now your teammates have a chance to pick you up and you don't lose a hook state and get closer to death.
Either run DS to discourage tunneling and protect yourself in case the killer tries anyway, or accept the risk that there might not be an obsession.
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I feel liek this should happen I mean I play both side and don't tunnel till egc which at this point I have to.
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This is why I've ran Blood Pact ever since I unlocked it. I don't care for DS, never have, but by virtue of me bringing a perk I actually do like the function of (free aura reading on one other survivor if either of us are injured) it forces an obsession. That way even if none of my teammates bring DS, the killer has to assume someone has it. Makes for better games for everyone.
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I feel there should be a obsession every match because sometime when there no obsession I'll tunnel sometime but if there is obsession I have to think before I act more.
no obsession is like relax mode for killers they know it
1 -
I do agree there should be an obsession every match regardless of perks.
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then make DS base kit fine all fixed.
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I loved Blood Pact at first, I thought it was great... until some Feng Min used it to keep running towards injured me while she was being chased even though she'd never been hooked and I had... so, I got to be the first one to die in that match. Got mori'd. -_-
I usually put on Mettle of Man when I want an obsession in the game. It's so rare I get to use it that it makes me all excited when I do.
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Just for the record, this is not a "paradox", in any sense of the word. It's a basic fact that human behavior is altered by external conditions.
If a survivor knows the killer has Lightborn, for example, they'll stop trying to blind the killer. Does that mean Lightborn becomes useless? No, it means Lightborn accomplished its goal of preventing blinds.
This is how games work. You adapt to what your opponent is using. There's no "paradox", it's just some people need to play more strategy games with human opponents. You're not playing against AI, you're playing against sentient beings that can and will change tactics depending on what you do, to try to get the upper hand.
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No? Why should you have the benefit of a perk without using it?
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It's an incredibly lazy strategy. Like a 4 man swf with 4 BnP. They're almost certainly going to win, but whether they are better at the game is debatable at best.
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Probably any game that guy plays. People will go through ridiculous lengths to explain why losing wasn't their fault.
1 -
Agreed.
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DS needed this nerf and shouldn't have been in the game to begin with honestly. You shouldn't get a free getaway because you got caught again.
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I play both side why should survivor have a perk that may never get used just have obsession in game just to scare the killer in to think we have ds no killer perk where we use it just so survivors think we have it.
either put obsession in ever match or make a weaker DS but does the same thing basekit because no obsession = easy mode
because after you kill the first survivor by tunnel one poor soul the other 3 playing get hurt as well making it very easy match for the killer
and the easy fix would be obsession ever match because if you never tunnel anyway it wont hurt you.
that because it was use ones now the survivor know you have it so they stopped try blind you survivor have to be scare all the time because killer have perk survivor can't tell if your running or not take BBQ most killer do run it for bp but even if the killer not running it survivor still try hide from it see what I'm saying.
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It's an incredibly lazy strategy.
In terms of chases, it's almost no different from chasing multiple survivors. The main difference is that you're starting a chase with someone who's already injured. Regardless, "lazy" is just another word for "optimal", at least in this situation. Good players trying to win make optimal plays.
4 -
Make ruin and noed base kit as well.
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I play both side why should survivor have a perk that may never get used just have obsession in game just to scare the killer in to think we have ds no killer perk where we use it just so survivors think we have it.
Because if the point of DS is to prevent tunneling and having an obsession prevents tunneling, then DS has achieved its purpose, even if you never get to stun the killer. Read my post about human behavior and the fact that humans change tactics.
3 -
so then you're saying that the paradox of the perk is that it does exactly what it's supposed in stopping tunneling. How is that a wasted perk slot?
3 -
read my you still use the perk why the survivor stopped trying to blind you,you still got to use it 1 time survivor don't know till they try blind you.
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I can't really agree. If you need to resort to those tactics you aren't good.
I'm not referring to you specifically when I say you.
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You need to understand that if you touch a generator, it means you're not being tunnelled.
DS is now fine, it does what it's supposed to do and doesn't grant invulnerability or stupid second chances.
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I dont know if this helps but for me it feels like ds ruined the match for me as a killer in a few matches and if i olay Survivor it felt... pretty useless (i had it only as green perk and no violet perks equipped).
I had much nore success using escape perks.
0 -
wouldn't mind ruin so some slow down for gens
that what may happen they a lot more useful perks
0 -
When you say MAD are you referring to Mutually Assured Destruction?
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So you just don't give a flying ######### about how useful it is, you just want to stab the killer. Good to know.
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