[LOCK THE THREAD PLEASE] The DS paradox explained to everyone.
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If taking DS prevented you from being Tunneled, it wasn't useless. It has already served its primary, intended purpose. The God Mode, as you call it, was never intended and was simply an exploited, unintended consequence. And to be even more correct, this isn't a paradox at all. This is simply a choice, and I've already noted the number of people taking DS is back on the uptick.
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If it aint broke don't fix it. Well they went and tried to fix DS and broke it. The game should not be built around the playing style of swf red ranks but around mid tier solo cue rank 10 players.
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Indeed. Because it shows that something doesn't have to be used in order to achieve the purpose for which it was created.
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As someone who plays both sides I think making an Obsession form every match wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm shocked it isn't a basekit thing tbh
I always hear killers say they don't like it because it 1. gives survivors more info (When Obsession is being chased) and more importantly, 2. discourages tunneling because of possible DS but I don't see a problem with the latter.
If I'm playing survivor and I see Obsession formed I worry about things like STBFL / Dark Devotion but nobody ever talks about that, so I feel the Obsession thing can go both ways for the most part and it's reasonably fair.
As for DS the only thing I can think of to maybe buff it is to make the timer pause when the killer is chasing you similar to active reverse bear traps. As it stands, a killer can tunnel you off hook and wait out DS and still tunnel you so what's the point? This would at least alleviate that problem somewhat but killers can still slug you to make DS wasted.
In that case obviously DS Unbreakable will help you get up but then it's like we're back to Square 1 running DS Unbreakable to counter being tunneled and or slugged.
I feel like there's always going to be problems with all of this lol
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its not a useless perk slot out of the simple fact that is forces the killer not to tunnel so they dont have to eat a stun.
you do NOT need to stun the killer to get usage of the perk!
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Exactly, and thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only person of a good deal of years behind him on the Forum. Recognizing the definition of MAD seems to have fallen by the wayside of the more recent generations. Simply having DS on your Survivor, passively works for you if the Killer is shy about tunneling just because there is an Obsession. There has already been a return for the entire Team. Even if it never gets used, it already paid for itself.
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Yes but now kids grow up watching Marvel movies and think "They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree"
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You do remember that Tony was proven wrong in that very same film, right? And "kids nowadays" is such a tired trope, let it die already. It's been 5000 years since the beginning of recorded history and "kids nowadays" are still being blamed for all the evils in the world.
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Then why would I run ds instead of any other obsession perk? I will get a use out of them, unlike ds.
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tunneling isn't an issue with game mechanics, it's very much intended
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We all know DS power didnt change. We all know if you get tunnel DS will work like old version. We all know that omg, STOP saying same things again and again.
Problem is DS was always weak. Before update killers were respecting it. But after update everyone see DS is not strong perk. 5 seconds stun is not nothing. It doesnt stop tunnel. DS never stopped tunnel. It was never anti-tunnel perk. That is why tunnelling is popular those days. Even you have DS, tunneller killers still tunnelling you. So DS need buffs, it have to be more punish for tunnel. Then it can really stop tunnel. But for now, it is useless and weak.
Old DS was problem because you didnt tunnel but you get punish because you find same survivor after 50 seconds later on gen and you get stun for no reason. That had to be nerf and it did. But now new problem is DS is not danger for tunneller killers.
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I agree with many that there should just be an obsession every match. It's stupid that there isn't. Or make like waaaaaay more perks obsession perks.
I avoid tunneling as killer, but when there's no obsession, knowing that I strategically probably should tunnel annoys me, because it's an unfun thing to play against. People with less qualms about tunneling are probably discouraged from using STBFL or one of Mike's obsession related addons, because they'll get more information from the survivors about if they're probably going to have DS or not. Which is dumb. As survivor I essentially never ran DS, but usually some rando would bring it in, and sometimes tunneling would happen anyway... But ohboy it was VERY frequently a tunnelfest when they did not.
DS now IS a wasted perk in if multiple members of the team bring it. If you're in a swf and one dude brings it? Great. Optimal. If you're solo queueing? Seems like every time either no one will have it and your odds of getting tunneled to death skyrocket, or all 4 of you will have it and your team is essentially down 3 perks. Solo is rough enough without DS roulette.
Not to mention it's good/healthy for gameplay to encourage a diversity of perks. But if people need to worry about ensuring an obsession every round, they have an extremely limited pool of obsession perks that don't just completely suck nuts, thus limiting that perk diversity.
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Because the killer doesn't know who has DS (or if it's even supposed to be DS), so when you get tunneled, you'll wish you had it. However, if you feel I'm wrong, then just take other obsession perks.
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The usefulness of DS has been reduced, and that's fine. However it's effectiveness at dealing with tunneling is still almost non-existent. The only kind of tunneling it can provide some relief is a very specific kind, specifically you have to go down and be picked up within 60 seconds and it's only good one time. So it doesn't matter if your tunnel exceeds 60 seconds, the killer slugs you, or on your second tunnel, the perk provides absolutely nothing under these common circumstances. The real issue with DS and why I think most people would try to get a redemption out of it, is because killers would often actually tunnel you but then go out of their way to circumvent getting struck. So it makes sense that survivors would go out of their way to get some utility out of the one-time use perk, when the very thing it is supposed to provide relief for was easily circumvented.
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An obsession in every match should be a thing, if even just for those extra BP.
However, one thing I'm getting from people unsatisfied by the DS nerf is that it feels more about them not getting to stab a killer than them escaping the killer. In most cases that I've fallen to DS is when I'm forced to grab - when a survivor enters a locker or times a jump, or the endgame. As far as I can see, those options are very viable still.
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This has always been my problem with DS. Even before the change, I never used this perk because I never actually got to use it. It seemed worthless to me, because as long as there was an obsession, the killer would slug me anyway. And there always was an obsession because so many people (ab)used DS. Now that it's been nerfed and almost nobody brings the perk anymore, no obsession matches are much more common and killers start tunnelling because nothing's stopping them.
So I agree with OP, I'd much rather bring any other obsession perk and actually get to use it than bring a dead perk just for the sake of having an obsession in the match. I've been having fun with For The People and killers didn't tunnel because of the obsession.
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Why take DS if you never get tunnelled?
Why take Unbreakable if you never get slugged?
Why take Head On if the killer uses Iron Maiden?
Why take Adrenaline if you all die before the 5th gen?
Why take Smash Hit or Power Struggle if the killer avoids pallets?
It's almost as if perks are situational...
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So if we have an obsession every match, how long until killers realize that the obsession is no longer a sign of ds? A week? Two? Then what happens after that? We end up exactly where we are now, except now survivors have extra information on who is being chased, with no other advantage to either side. If you want to talk about a band-aid instead of a real solution, putting an obsession in every match is it. Not even a good band-aid either.
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If the killer dosen't tunnel you because someone has DS, then its affecting how they play the game, and isn't worthless. It has bought you more time because of the fear of it. That is damn worth it.
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It's too late to revert the change. I played with a friend who brought DS after we got tunneled game after game and let me tell you what happened. The next game against a Nurse my friend got immediately tunneled off hook. She hit her through BT, downed her eventually, picked her up, ate the DS and still downed her a few seconds later again so she went back on hook. Ofc same happened after the next unhook.
Killer realized that a 5 seconds stun is nothing so even if there is DS they tunnel now.
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Nice necro.
No, it wasn't effective. If I want the killer to fear ds, I could aswell bring another obsession perk that will actually have an effect.
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Then DS in a way, is still effective. The fear of DS, even if you don't have it, is making it a strong perk. Which means its one of the only perks that can affect a game that it isn't even IN. Like, damn.
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This is the silliest post I've read in a long time. If you haven't been picked up in (60) seconds, you weren't being tunneled.
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You need to get out more. This is one of the dumbest replies I've read in a long time. The only thing silly is the fact that you replied. Don't quote me with nonsense.
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The only exception to what Moundshroud said is if you were tunnelled and downed within 60 seconds but the killer slugged you, waiting for your DS to expire.
If more than 60 seconds elapses (I'd argue less even but that's the given duration on DS) the killer was obviously doing something OTHER than go after you, which means they weren't tunnelling.
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My example was to illustrate that you can still be actively tunneled beyond 60 seconds. So for people to act like DS is this compelling anti-tunnel perk is laughable. I've had killers instantly return back to the hook and my chase ended outside of 60 seconds. This doesn't signify that I wasn't being tunneled. For the purposes of DS, tunneling is a very specific and limited one-time experience. That's just a fact, there's no disputing that.
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So DS isn't completely foolproof and doesn't work indefinitely, so it's not an anti-tunnel perk? Because it has limits, it's useless?
Is Borrowed Time completely ineffective as well because the Endurance doesn't last 15 minutes?
Are Dead Hard and Head On useless because they trigger Exhaustion?
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I never said DS has to be indefinite or that it has to be completely foolproof. However just because a perk is declared to remedy a situation and has limits, it doesn't mean that it's effective at relieving that situation or that the limits are reasonable.
I also never said anything about that, I was very specific that tunneling isn't defined by 60 seconds. I don't see you arguing otherwise. Are you saying that getting tunneled for more than 60 seconds is now something else?
All of your examples can be applied to every single perk, a lot of perks with limitations but sometimes those limitations make sense. The game has evolved over the years because sometimes the limits are too great or insufficient. Are we precluded from discussing that same idea for DS just because some people think it's in a great place?
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DS isn't abuseable anymore. Due to that, less people run it, in turn, makes killers get a survivor out faster for a win. Taking a survivor out early is the BEST WAY to get immediate PRESSURE and instantly have a high chance at winning against any team. No more 60 seconds of doing whatever you want. If you're getting tunneled a lot, use DS. If you aren't then don't. A killer will tunnel you whether you run a perk or not if he/she REALLY wants you. I know this from experience. Nothing has changed except now you have to be useless to your team if you want to stab a killer in the shoulder. If he doesn't tunnel you, you'll have to follow him to make him want you but that's a red flag for killer and he'll avoid you even more. Killers are NOT bully simulators. If he/she isn't tunneling you, stop complaining that you didn't get to stab him/her.
That's EXACTLY why the DS change needed to take place. People weren't being "tunneled", they wanted to stab the killer for a free mega stun and talk crap at the end of the game like the killer was trash. I barely see that happen anymore. I STILL have not been DS'd since the change went live and I'm LOVIN' it. I'm not sponsored by McDonalds but I should be at this point lol. If you didn't get tunneled, it's served its purpose as a deterrence. If you did stab the killer, the killer was punished for still committing to the chase, even if DS was the same as it was previously. Either way, its a healthier version of the same perk that does the same thing. Deters and punishes those who try to get someone out of the game. @Orion Any thoughts on what I've said?
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Any mod, please, lock the thread. It didn't see comments in 2, almost 3 days and now people came back to it. I don't want to commit to the discussion and I also don't want my notifications flooded with replies from a thread that I thought was abandoned.
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You you say so; me, I think if you need more than (60) seconds to slip the Killer, you clearly don't have the chops to slip the Killer.
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You're confused, and haven't addressed anything I said so I'm not even sure why you're still responding. Tunneling can exceed 60 seconds, I don't see any comment that refutes that.
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Agree. Blood lust should be a perk also
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If It make killer don't play tunnel.
Then it already do what it should.
You don't stun the killer with ds doesn't mean that ds is useless.
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And keys, of course
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What does bloodlust have to do with the DS?
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How exactly are YOU defining Tunneling? A lot of people seem to have gotten very broad in that interpretation.
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