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The "Just do bones" Experiment
The objective for this experiment was to see how long it would take for a single survivor to prevent NOED from coming into play by doing all five totems.
For this experiment, I chose Mother's Dwelling, Ormond, and Coal Tower to be the maps, due to their varying sizes.
I'm only having one survivor doing the bones since your teammates are unlikely to touch dull totems unless they have Inner Strength or an archive.
I cleansed totems on each map two different times, to have some sort of comparison.
I cleansed with the knowledge of where every totem was.
The images are just to see where the totems had spawned each individual time.
Coal Tower (Variation A) Time spent: 2 minutes
Coal Tower (Variation B) Time spent: 2 minutes, 5 seconds
Ormond (Variation A) Time spent: 1 minute, 55 seconds
Ormond (Variation B) Time spent: 1 minute, 51 seconds
Mother's Dwelling (Variation A) Time Spent: 2 minutes, 13 seconds
Mother's Dwelling (Variation B) Time Spent: 2 minutes, 6 seconds
The average time between all of the maps was about two minutes.
These times however are extremely unlikely to even be close to attainable in an actual trial because:
1) These times assume that you are not chased or interrupted at any point
2) They assume there are no perks to slow down or speed up the cleansing
And
3) They require the survivor to know exactly where all five totems are and to not waste time searching for them.
In the end, even if someone somehow managed to cleanse all five totems by themselves in two minutes, it could be completely meaningless since the killer could very well just not have NOED. The time it would take for a solo survivor to deal with all five totems would likely lead to their team's demise.
Feel free to use this meaningless information however you please.
P.S. These totem spawns
Comments
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The RNG and totem placements are the biggest issue with Hex perks. They tried to band aid fix it with Undying which proved to be very strong with Ruin, and was nerfed fast.
Totem spawns need a rework, there is already too much RNG in the game but I doubt we get it anytime soon.
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The thing is: Its a team game. You have to work together to increase your chances to escape.
You are NOT meant to be able to do everything alone.
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Although it would be unlikely for a single survivor to cleanse in the times you listed, every other survivor should be looking for totems so cleanse while locating gens or repair, team mates to heal, etc. Always assume the killer has NOED. Because even if they don't you lose very little time to overall gen repairs.
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Remember it would only take a fraction of the time if everyone did bones so realistically all totems can be cleansed within ~45 with 2/3rd of the time being the the last person moving from their totem to the last.
Totem cleanse times as a team are literally 30 seconds as multiple people can do it so your calculations are wrong because its a team game with up to 4 times efficiency.
Aka bones are slow only because people don't do bones!
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Hey, really nice idea mapping out the spawn points there. :)
I'd love to see done more this, if you have the time.
Thanks for the info.
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Yeah that's the problem with do bones. For some reason nobody does it and doing it alone is just a hassle.
Making Noed basekit would probably be a nerf to it cause it might make survivors actually try and when they realise how easy it actually is if everyone does it
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I like to play with Inner Strength/For The People and a totem hunting perk, and I can honestly say that I have never cleansed all 5 without losing the trial. I've cleaned like, 3-4 and still been NOEDed. And more often than that I've only had time to do one before either I die or the gens are done.
This math really explains why.
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Funny because survivors can just let teammates die and escape through hatch, robbing the killer of his 4k and completly backstabbing and ruining the game for the other 3 survivors. You can win alone just fine and there is no punishment for it.
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And how much time is it if every survivor that finishes a gen and go to the next gen just checks the common totem spots on that map and cleases a totem he finds?
you dont even have to go out and search for them most of the time, you just have to do the one you come along. Unless it is a swamp map, totems are rarely on the edge of the map with no gens nearby.
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If every survivor cleansed totems they came across, it wouldn’t be a huge time commitment and NOED wouldn’t be an issue for most players. But since people usually ignore totems, I focused on a solo survivor doing all of them.
While totems are rarely out of the way, and the maps I chose didn’t have incredible totem spawns, maps such as the inside ones can make looking for totems a nightmare.
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Well, i am a solo survivor and i do totems on most maps. i do all totems i come across until 4 gens are done, and then i go hunt the last one (if the situation allows it). It usually works for me, but i have to admit, that the new game have..improved spawning spots, or at least i am not that familiar with them yet.
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Good job. It takes 2 minutes for a single survivor to cleanse all 5 totems.
Imagine the time it would take if the other 3 teammates wouldn't be allergic to dull totems.
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You are aware that there are 4 of you right?
"just do bones" is referring to all the survivors to get it in their heads that they need to cleanse on sight even if it is dull.
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I love the people here like "Just cleanse all the dulls on sight" not realising that it means the other survivors who don't know when, where, or if the other totems were cleansed would then go around the map, as would you, to look for the remaining totems that no longer exist and this wasted time will kill your team.
Totem counter, basekit, solo buffs, please.
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People who say that just show that they never played solo survivor in their lives.
Totally agreed.
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Next small game might make that kinda easier? I personally use detectives hunch since in one proc you could possibly see all the totems. And it adds them to a map
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My point was that finding them isn't the issue, it's cleansing them all whilst being a useful teammate and having other teammates trying to do the same thing without either knowing.
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Ah alright.
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2 minutes on average but "The time it would take for a solo survivor to deal with all five totems would likely lead to their team's demise."
like what? how did you ever get to that conclusion?
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Bro this is literally the game though is it not? run Detectives Hunch if you want to see how active your team is on taking down totems.... like if you go for an unhook and someone else is as well and that is your "waste of time" then....idk run kindred? never go for an unhook and hope your team fills that role? I just dont understand your mindset, you are against what is effectively the entire point of thegame.
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Solos shouldn't have to use items, perks, or add-ons to get information SWF get for free
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Yeah, that's cool but do you understand that there are 3 other players that are supposed to work with you?
Not to mention that even by your calculations, checking all dulls won't take critical amount of time, especially if you don't completely dedicate yourself to it, but do it in between doing other objectives.
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Personally I'd be much more open to a counter if they first fixed totem spawns and made totems beefier/more defensible. They are just way to easy to shut down even in solos which is why you don't see most of the hex perks used on top of some totem perks don't need to be totem perks (such as crowd control).
Until they fix these things, they don't need to add a counter base.
The argument that swf get something for free isn't a great basis to me honestly since they get tons of info for free (such as where the killer is most of the game without perks, certain perks become way more powerful in swf, etc). That's an issue with swf and not an issue with solos. There is also the fact that the counter largely doesn't matter outside of noed (besides having more chances to get bp) since most hex perks let you know they are active pretty quickly.
Noed is not nearly as common as people make it out to be. One night I played 20 games in a row and counted each game with noed (whether it became active or not) and only 1/4 had it and most of those it wasn't active. Noed is too weak imo but that's just my hot take
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That would require the following tho:
1- survivors having access of finding bones quickly
2- survivors being able to communicate with each other
3- at most 2 survivors working on bones at the same time to reduce wasted gentimes.
1 requires a perk or an item, multiple if you're not on comms. 2 requires a way of conveying information. Other than the Crystal Bead, there is no way of conveying that information other than being pre-made and on comms. 3 requires either amazing synergy, or being pre-made on comms.
Totems are weak against a 4 man SWF on comms. Any other combination only makes them significantly stronger.
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"Personally I'd be much more open to a counter if they first fixed totem spawns and made totems beefier/more defensible. They are just way to easy to shut down even in solos which is why you don't see most of the hex perks used on top of some totem perks don't need to be totem perks (such as crowd control)."
And everyone that I know who's wanted solo buffs have also talked about buffs across the board to killer game mechanics- totems take longer to cleanse and are hidden better, gens are slower, killers quicker, their perks stronger.
" The argument that swf get something for free isn't a great basis to me honestly since they get tons of info for free (such as where the killer is most of the game without perks, certain perks become way more powerful in swf, etc). That's an issue with swf and not an issue with solos. "
And that 'Issue with swf' must be taken into account to balance the game. It isn't going anywhere and you can't nerf swf without killing dbd so buffing solos and killers is the only other option.
" There is also the fact that the counter largely doesn't matter outside of noed (besides having more chances to get bp) since most hex perks let you know they are active pretty quickly."
This one I agree with, kind of. Perks like Inner Strength still exist and knowing if your team are on gens or totems is valuable information you just don't get. Noed only takes this issue and exacerbates it.
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I'm not saying to make entire perks basekit. I'm saying just for the totem counter to be basekit.
They shouldn't have to use perks to get information SWF get for free, because a coordinated swf will very rarely make said human error. "He's chasing me around a jungle gym to the right of main building window" gives more than enough information, but having a ping system in the game is enough.
The totem counter should not stay behind a perk because you cannot balance totems around that. They'll either be very strong vs solos without the perk, weak af vs swf without the perk, weak vs solos with the perk, and entirely useless vs swf with the perk.
Not to mention 1 swf member has to run the perk to give 4 people value whilst all 4 solos must run the perk giving them the same value. Solos aren't the people that need handicaps with perks, swf are.
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Wrong. Its the other way around. SWF shouldn´t get these information for free, while being balanced with solo in one game mode.
You just cant prevent it. Buffing solos is but one way. But since i like the lack of information in this game, i would rather have swf and solos seperated and balanced seperatly, because you can never buff solo so much that it has the same information and reliability as an swf-team.
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If you have a SWF then you can have 1 person just focus on totems. You can have an OoO to take pressure off of totem breaker.
I love doing totems. I do at least 2 every match which is part if my build for Inner Strength.
I don't think its possible for a person in soloq to do 5 totems by themselves in the current state. The new Small Game Buff will change that with a totem counter and decreasing cone for more accurate finding.
You also have Detectives Hunch + Maps.
Sometimes it may amount to nothing, but other times I'm glad I did those bones lol
I also had a match where I did 3 totems and 2 gens and NOED still activated.
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Yeah I figured you'd be reasonable in the first point. It's nice lol.
And for the second part, it's mostly an issue with swfs existing unfortunately. In concept swf sounds like a great idea but in actual play it's super busted and will be no matter what changes are made due to coms existing in a game that is meant to have each player be provided limited knowledge. Swf will continue to be stronger regardless of changes because map awareness is the strongest thing in the game as a survivor and nothing can be changed to address those when coms will always be available. I wish it weren't the case but it really is
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Balance swf and solo seperately and give them two seperate queues and you kill the game.
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It's an unfortunate truth that you can never have swf and solo be equal but you can attempt to get them closer. Unfortunately it looks like bhvr don't even want to try.
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you are going to really throw the game in the deep-end if you want to give solo's all the info a SWF squad has, you would basically be asking for a map-wide aura of the killer at all times for everyone.....
I agree that some things should be shown, like survivor perks to eachother before the match starts like on mobile, but giving all that totem information...idk....you have to tread very carefully.
on the other hand they COULD just try crap out for a month and see how it goes....but this dev team is for some reason completely against that.
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Why? And dont give me the "no killer would go against swf", because thats the point of both modes being balances seperatly.
Also, i always red from killers that want some killers nerfed that they like the challange.
Unless you think swf wont play anymore if they dont have an unfair advantage.
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Honestly all you need is Detective's Hunch so long as it's not an indoor map.
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3man SWFs wouldn't exist anymore.
2man SWFs would have to have other 2man SWFs to play with.
It splits the player base, causing longer queues for everyone. The reasoning the devs don't want to add other game modes is because of this splitting of the player base.
So yes, it would kill the game
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Wish granted: Small Game gets the totem counter!
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DON'T REMIND ME AAAAAAAA
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Then the game is doomed anyway, because you cant balance around swf and solo at the same time, and yeah, it wont happen. So on long term, when both solo and killer base breaks away, the game is dead anyway.
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"because you cant balance around swf and solo at the same time"
You could, actually, by giving solos more information to being them closer to swf. So don't even try that one.
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A bit of a seperate topic, but how would people feel if they increased the number of totems and made hex perks trigger with 2 totems where either
- you have to remove both active totems to remove the perk
(And possibly)
- removing one totem results in a weaker version of the totem until both are removed (such as hex ruin goes down to 100% instead of 200%)
This would give more bp opportunities for survivors as well as make hex perks more viable overall
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I guess happy screams? Like that one time in Amsterdam during Euro Trip?
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Well, we do have a hook counter now. I play only solo survivor. Do you know how many times a still unhooked survivor that wasnt me took a hit for one on deathhook in my games so far? Well, i could say none, but that wouldnt be true, there are a few people i met that did that. But the majority of survivors in solo queue does not. Will an swf do that? Usually, yes.
I had several games where i died on first hook even though the killer wasnt camping, and even though i had kindred. Thats the reason i dont run kindred anymore, because a lot of people dont care. Will that happen in a swf group? I think not.
And there is a lot more examples for that kind of behaviour. What kind of information would you buff to change that?
Yes, i know it might be a regional thing, i play in europe and i have a lot of russian players in my game, and most of them are not...teamoriented if you dont happen to be a russian, at least in my experience. But still, the question stands.
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Quite a bit longer, because everyone would be searching what's already been searched and generally wasting more time than you could ever think possible even from a team of genuinely good survivors.
Of course, there's the argument of "just run perks", but the three counters to that argument are that solo's ready, really, really need good builds, it doesn't change the fact that people would waste time searching what's been searched, and the only reason to cleanse all totems is to avoid NOED and running a perk to counter a perk is just the epitome of bad, bandaided design.
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NOED only hits survivors that are to lazy to search all totems or equip a perk that helps them with that. While i understand, that some people have a hard time switching their usual loadout of BT, DS, DH, IW to something else. It sure shows that people like to priorize some things over others and then complain, when they chose the wrong perk/priorities.
If survivors don´t like to get hit by NOED, then the only other option is to wait out if a killer insta downs after all gens have been completed. Not being particuarly cocky during the endgame really helps with that.
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Sad, incredibly depressed screaming that portrays my absolute lack of faith in bhvr ever doing something good for solos
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Its funny how you think a solo team is "lazy".
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You act like NOED is a thing every single round.
It is not.
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But they did what survivors asked for.
I mean, when killers struggled with keeping gens alive after the Ruin nerf, the devs gave us Undying. Then they nerfed Undying, but at least we can keep totem stacks.
Now survivors got a similar treatment. Small Game got stacks. I doubt that the devs will nerf Small Game after a few months, but who knows...
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I remember a match back, when Undying was still a usefull perk. I cleansed 5 Hex totems alone. While my teammates hook bombed each other and not even touched gens. So, from my own experience. I profoundly believe that my teammates often are lazy.
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But that's the thing, they do everything in perks. They fix all of the game issues in perks so whenever someone complains it's just "Oh, run that perk" like, I don't have 50 slots on either side.
Fixes need to be implemented in the actual game. Basekit totem counters, chase indicators, a basic ping system, better totem spawns, longer generator times, better regression etc.
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