Can someone please help me understand why Gideon is suddenly highly complained about?!
Ok...
My mind is spinning here.
Since Gideon Meat Plant’s rework it’s been a semi frequent topic posted here, killers complaining about the amount of pallets on this map.
And I just don’t get it.
What exactly is bothering many of you with these pallets?!
Yes, there Is a large overall volume of pallets.
Yes, Gideon probably also has the highest amount of “god pallets”/pallets that absolutely HAVE to be kicked/broken in the entire game.
But do you know what else this map has?
- Very few actually safe vaults. Sure the few safe vaults that do exist are extremely safe vaults, but they’re so few.
- Pretty much every structure/loop with these pallets that are being complained about almost always quickly lead chases back to gens. Gens you could/can quickly switch up targets on. If you are allowing yourself to be lead to areas where gens are already finished, that’s on you.
- There are many dead ends in this map if a killer is smart about which breakable walls are left intact.
- This map very quickly becomes a death trap for survivors once many of these pallets are gone, because there are so few loops with good vaults. And most of these pallets get dropped very quickly by survivors.
Since the rework of this map, I’ve had only ONE terrible, terrible match as killer on this map, and that’s only because it coincided with going up against one of the most brutally hardcore teams I’ve gone against in recent memory.
This map is fine. I think many of you are just succumbing to the psychological effect of thinking about the total volume of pallets, rather than being objective about how quickly this map becomes absolutely abysmal for survivors against a killer that keeps a cool head.
Comments
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I don't mind it as PH because I can hit people through walls and pallets. I do mind it though when I have to break these pallets cause I never normally do that. Also stairs.
As other killers, it's moreso that by the time you've broken every pallet it's game over. You couldn't ever get enough pressure to prevent a survivor from doing a gen because they held w, pressed space, and waited for you to break it, rinse and repeat.
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But a killer overcommitting to a chase like that on any map is a bad idea. At least on Gideon 2 or 3 super good pallets can be gotten rid of in the same space of time as a chase on other maps before a survivor has even dropped their first pallet. It’s so easy on this map to get rid of a few pallets and then switch targets.
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I think the issue is mainly how tremendously boring it is. The sheer amount of pallets that MUST be kicked is unbelievable. There is no mindgaming, just hold w, get to pallet, loop pallet 3 times if possible, drop it, make free distance because the killer has to break the pallet. Don't even get me started on the God pallets. The map is genuinely an awfully designed map from a game play perspective. You may be right, it may well be possible to win by doing what you've said, that doesn't change how terrible it is. It's an absolute snoozefest. Even if I win as Killer, I don't feel happy about the win, just happy that I can get off that bloody map. It may be fair, but it doesn't feel fair simply due to the sheer number of pallets that cannot be mind-gamed.
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I've had ok games in there with stronger killers but I've played on there as pig and wraith and it was extremely not fun. Every survivor I had just ran to a pallet, camped it, dropped it, over onto the next. Switching survivors doesn't matter much because they all do it and they can drop 5 pallets and still have plenty of time. Meanwhile, obviously, the other three are doing gens. Getting the first hit is easy enough because stealth gang + indoor map but there's no getting another one in any reasonable amount of time. So I play pallet kicking simulator until I give up, focus one, camp them then trade hooks, which is not any more fun than endless pallet kicking but I'll get more points from it at least.
Imo maps like the game existing encourage unfun playstyles from both sides, and encourage killers to just not play anyone except nurse and spirit.
You also might just be a much better killer player than me if you're doing well with low tier killers on there, which is fine with me, but iirc I haven't seen anyone do well on there with them if the survivors are using the map effectively.
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I think its for several reasons.
- God pallets can be used by almost any Survivor even by not very good ones while good vaults require at least to be decent at running the gyms so if you get bad Survivors you are going to have trouble even if they are not very good at looping, thats not the case on heavy window maps where bad players are easier to down.
- The chase someone, drop pallet, break pallet is quite boring, especially for Killers.
- A lot of players are very bad, the kind of players that dont realize 3gen setups (or dont care) or try to mindgame low-wall god pallets, this map punishes heavily bad Killers while doesnt punish bad Survivors as much so bad Killers have a much harder time than usual since they have to deal with their mistakes while Survivors dont, bad players tend to spam the forums with complains more than good players.
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As both sides I really hate that map I dont know why but I never liked that map. For killer part that map has quite a lot pallets which slows the game and it is really broing to break pallet every 5 seconds. As survivor the map is really tight and it is harder to navigate my movement in that map. I found Midwitch more fun when I play survivor eventhough I know that Midwitch is quiet advantage for killer. Before and after rework idk why but I never get used to that map.
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What exactly is bothering many of you with these pallets?!
Yes, there Is a large overall volume of pallets.
Yes, Gideon probably also has the highest amount of “god pallets”/pallets that absolutely HAVE to be kicked/broken in the entire game.
You basically answered your own question.
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It's virtually impossible to keep up with a survivor as an M1 killer if they just keep early/pre-dropping pallets and making as much distance as possible.
By the time you've cleared out all of the pallets they've dropped, 3 gens will have popped.
Most maps, most pallets are at 'unsafe loops', meaning the pallets serve a purpose for stunning the killer and slightly slowing them down. A Strong loop pallet means you can loop a killer for a very long time or force them to break the pallet. A God pallet means the killer has no choice but to break the pallet, this gives the survivor a huge head start because unlike a 'strong loop' pallet, they have no reason to hesitate to see which way the killer is going, they can just carry on running immediately and widen the gap between them and the killer by a huge margin.
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But the only reason there are so many is because it’s counterbalanced by the other points I included.
This map seriously gets dangerous for survivors very quickly.
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The map also becomes finished for competent Survivors by the time it becomes dangerous for them. If all you are doing is switching targets because pallets are preventing you from downing them, what exactly are you accomplishing?
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Which they only get to do once with these pallets
Gideon has a staggering, and sharp shift from safe for survivors to dangerous for for survivors. There’s very little safety for them mid-ish/late game.
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1) A lot of safe&god pallets pallets
2) A lot of pallets leading into dead ends
3) A lot of open spaces
4) That are still clogged with so many obstacles that don't really hide survivors but make using huntress/billy etc extremely difficult
The list goes on with a lot more controversial things.
BHVR managed to make a map that is awful for both survivors and killers.
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Why does that matter if they've already cleared most, if not all, if the gens by that point? Are you just banking on hoping they get overly altruistic and die on failed hook saves?
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Sure. And I have to say this has been my experience too.
The problem is, by the time you get to that point, you've wasted so much time in failed chases clearing pallets, that all the gens are done.
Nearly every game I have in Gideon is the same. Frustratedly losing chases for the first 90%, then scoring a few lucky hits and a few hooks at the very end. Usually with hook standoffs during EGC, where they trade hooks and 3 escape.
Unless you have a decent ranged power, or you're Nurse/Spirit/Freddy to get around those pallets, or you're a stealth killer who can land hits before dropping pallets is even a thing, you will struggle on Gideon.
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I personally dont lose often when i get gideon. As killer survivor waste pallets so badly and as survivor killer give up the chase, sometimes they give up the match.
So why is it so different? Simply bc most survivor are bad and this map highlights it. They wait at pallets, try to stun and are in panic mode. A red rank survivor shouldnt wait at the god pallets next to the bathroom and take a hit when i lunge around the corner. This survivor shouldnt panic vault the pallet above the bathroom 5 times in a row and vault into me. (I didnt get the hit, but it was close) And a red rank survivor should chain the entire map and not use every pallet as waiting point.
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They didn’t fix the main issue and the map is boring as hell to play on
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I think you have under represented how many safe pallets there are on the map. Nearly every room has 1, if not 2 pallets, the vast majority of which are safe. The majority of these pallets are unmindgamable whether they are up or dropped, given that the loops are low and easy to see over. Yes, there are only 5 windows which I would consider safe. These are the long drop after the stairs, the freezer window, and the 1 jungle gym that spawns. Also T-L's given that gideon T-L's are quite long, making them easier to play as survivor. However, the sheer quantity of safe pallets means that there is almost always somewhere to chain these windows. Even if someone doesn't utilize the windows, they can still quite easily have a long chase simply by dropping each pallet as soon as they come to it, which is virtually uncounterable given the safety of the pallets.
This leads me into the second point. The fact that anyone can play this map well makes it incredibly boring. Against even a half decent survivor the best play is just to eat 2 pallets, get a hit if they mess up, and if you can't get the down then pressure gens. This is where even more problems come with this map, but this issue is with survivors. When all the pallets are gone in an area, you have nothing. Literally nothing. This window to pallet ratio is similar to breakable walls in its terrible design. Incredibly survivor sided until the pallet/wall is kicked, after that there is nothing for the survivor to do, as a deadzone has been created. It's horrible design, as maps should be balanced so that they have balance throughout the whole map. Obviously using resources in one area makes it weaker, but it shouldn't eliminate the usefulness of that area. Rounding that back to Gideon, the map is still absurdly survivor sided. This is because while there are huge flaws/weaknesses for both sides, the killer weaknesses are exploited before the survivor ones.
This isn't to say in any way that you can't win on this map. Even basic m1 killers will be able to win many red rank games. However this isn't because the game is balanced, it is that most survivors aren't great at looping even the safest of pallets unless it is a god pallet.
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I play a lot of wraith so I’m very capable of working around the hit and run style Gideon’s encourages. The issue for me is even when the pallets are gone the chases are still very boring. Instead of running in a circle and then eating a pallet it then becomes hit survivor, catch up, and then hit em again because the survivors don’t have anything left. The very design of the map makes chases extremely boring regardless of who wins the chase.
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It is simple: the map is ruined.
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You say it yourself lol. "Yes, there Is a large overall volume of pallets. Yes, Gideon probably also has the highest amount of “god pallets”/pallets that absolutely HAVE to be kicked/broken in the entire game."
It does not matter that it doesn't have the typical window loops, bc there is enough pallets for the match to be over by the time the killer has kicked them all. Who wants loops without any mindgame at all? If you're playing a typical m1 killer there isnt really anything you can do
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Yep,survivors and killers can't really do any sort of mindgaming on that map which promotes super boring "Run around the pallet until the survivor drops it" kind of gameplay
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I'm not as competitive as most but the complaints are all valid.
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As posted before. An exorbitant amount of safe pallets, walls you often have to break, hooks that are often times difficult to place survivors on.
I've probably played Gideon as killer about 20 times since the rework. I've maybe 4k'd twice. I've had multiple games where I haven't even gotten a hook as a killer. Most games where I don't even up with 4 bbq stacks.
The map is an absolute chore and I'm at the point where I'm just going to start going AFK in corner. I'm not a "this guy/team needs to get fired" guy, but if I was, well then anyone on the map design team and anyone that approved this should probably be looking for a new job. They sufficiently failed at this aspect of their job to the point where I'd have a hard time believing they're competent at anything.
It's too bad, because I really enjoyed meat plant games prior to the rework as both a killer and survivor.
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It really is the amount of pallets. The amount of ABSOLUTLY SAFE pallets to be specific.
Survivors can pick any direction at any time and be at a loop where you HAVE to break the pallet.
It has nothing to do with over committing to chases. If I can't get a hit on a survivor within about 15-20 seconds, I'll take a pallet instead and move on. This results in A TON of time wasted on this map that is very difficult to make up unless survivors make several mistakes.
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everyone seems to not want to talk about the amount of dead ends that result in your death if you end up there with the killer. Interesting.
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Local Clown main wonders why other killers hate a map filled with crazy safe pallets.
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It's because it almost never happens and when it does it happens to survivors who don't know the new layout yet.
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F L A S H L I G H T
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Which is the point I’m trying to make. This map starts off favourable for survivors, but quickly becomes dangerous.
The swing in shift from what everyone here is focusing on:the pallets, to how favourable the map becomes for the killer, is massive.
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The amount of pallets that you are REQUIRED to kick is the main problem. Sure, there isn't very many good vaults, but in the end that doesn't really matter too much. Since you are spending all of your time kicking the safe pallets, by the time they run out, the gens should be completed.
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Yes this map is awful with the pallets gone the thing is if the survivors are at all competent they will have all gens done and be tbaging at the gates by the time you get rid of them.
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20 to 25 safe pallet, nothing crazy for sure..
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Avoid them, then? If you play on the map enough to know the layout, that should be way, way less of a problem for a Survivor than the sheer number of very safe pallets can be for the Killer.
And the point everyone else is trying to make is that the massive shift you are describing happens way too late to benefit the Killer. This makes sense now that multiple people have explained it, yes?
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A huge aspect of killer is momentum and the sooner you get that rolling the better. And if you have to go through 5 pallets each time you want to get a hit your momentum ball just get's rolling way to late.
It is ofcourse dependant on what you are playing. As a CLOWN main who can now quickly dart after survivors after they break the pallet and force them to drop them early yeah i can see it not being a problem. You can probably create a death zone quite quickly and force survivors there. That said you can have 100 safe pallets in a map and a nurse will laugh at them. doesn't mean it's not an issue.
Play pig on that map and you'll probably change your mind about it not being a problem. or wraith when they are multiple medkits. Or trapper without good addons. Or heaven forbid Myers. Imagine having to start stalking first. to then go throught all those pallets to only then getting your pressure.
A map can be disfavorable for a killer but for some killers Gideon is just straight up unplayable if you face an equally skilled team
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It doesn't matter that there are like 2 vaults on the map, by the time you are done breaking most of the pallets, the gens will be done.
The real question is has BHVR acknowledged it?
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Mostly because it's a zone-fest.
Very effective zoning is an under-appreciated aspect of playing DBD. Especially with indoor maps, you can very easily zone survivors (walls are easier to box people in with than corn). You're going to need to break pallets here to there, but they're scattered sparsely through the map tiles.
That being said, I suck at zoning and I play Spirit. So I don't care what other people have to say about it.
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The Game map is the most boring monstrosity of a map. It is just “break pallet with no form of a mindgame”. You simply don’t run out of resources on that map unless your team just doesn’t do gens. You can chuck every pallet you get to and if you have a good team or a team that just does gens then the match will be over with before you know it.
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It's been, complained about since it's rework and you just gave the reason why.
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Yeah, I don't get it either. I haven't found Gideon to be broken and unplayable as Killer. Too the contrary, it is still one of my favorite maps. There was a short period of adjustment, but overall.... I actually think it is the most balanced of the indoor maps.
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As a Hillbilly and Hag main I enjoy Gideon.
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No, this map is actually just the best survivor map if they know what they're doing.
Every. Single. Pallet. Is. Safe.
The existing vaults are also relatively safe.
50% of the tiles connect to each other.
There are too many pallets that are safe to even get rid of them all before all of the gens are done. The Game is impossible to lose on against 90% of the killer roster if the survivors know what they're doing because the map is just incredibly safe.
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"I get there are like 10+ (compared to 3 or 4 on other maps) super safe unmindgamable pallets.... BUUUUT there are very few safe pallets" lol if thats your logic for why its okay.... uhhhh oof
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I've always hated the meatplant as both killer and survivor, it's the map I hate the most. Others are just finally coming around to how terrible it is. 😂
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It's annoying as some of the weaker killers, but killers like Spirit, PH, Doc, and Freddy still are good on this map and survivors struggle against.
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See, there's a bit of an issue there.
Not everyone has those killers.
Also, once again, there is no way to avoid being blinded over and over and over unless you just give up and sit in the corner.
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That's a fair point. That's where balancing comes in, even if BHVR isn't the best at it, they need to balance the map.
Also, I'm a switch player where Doc and Spirit are both base game and thought for a second "Wait Doc and Spirit are base game what do you mean? You should have access to both easily." lmao
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PC, for all it's advantages only gets Wraith, Billy, Trapper, Huntress, and Nurse.
Out of all of those, Huntress is the best option, so I hope newbie PC players have good aim. When you need a direct hit. With arcing projectiles that for whatever reason are thrown up instead of forward.
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I do just fine on that map with my Myers, both Spooky build and Maniac. I've seen Trappers get easy 4Ks there too, where I was one of the victims. Hag does just fine there and so does Freddy. The map is actually small enough that the Killer can, if he/she applies oneself, keep up excellent Generator pressure. A little triage at the start, ruling out those Generators you don't think are worth fighting for does wonders. Then you focus on those you mean to patrol the whole game and pressure those Survivors into dropping pallets, i.e. do NOT respect the pallet. Take your lumps early so they take their hooks later on when they STILL have to get those Generators but all the pallets have been used. Perks which I find work particularly work well on Gideon are:
Corrupt Intervention (works well everywhere)
Pop Goes the Weasel
Oppression
Tinkerer
Dark Devotion
Trail of Torment
*Basically, any Perk that makes you undetectable (however briefly) works wonders there due to the small size of the map.
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Hallelujah.
Someone who gets it.
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Ok, here's the thing. It's not just the number of pallets. It's the number of pallets that completely invalidate most anti-loopers in the game. Blight, Nuse, Spirit, Huntress, and oddly enough, Trickster won't have that much trouble, but most killers will. Why? Because survivors can just predrop the pallets, and the loop is so huge, that there's no possible way to get them after the fact. Because of this, most pallets have to be kicked and not played around. You know why old Clown sucked? It's because that was his counter. Survivors can literally predrop pallets, and give you long enough chases to get the gens done. That's what a huge chunk of killers on the map have to go through.
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