How can gen speeds be slowed that is fair for both sides?
Comments
-
1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time. If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped. Gen tapping mid chase is also not without risk. If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time. That might mean you get one less loop around your pallet, you get hit just as you're vaulting through the next window instead of being safe, etc. It should generally lead to shorter chases, which may or may not be worth the regression time you save. It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place.
2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot.
That "actual logic" is ignoring the fact that regressing a gen gives continuous and passive value until survivors return to a gen. One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time. Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress. It just stops regression. The math should also not work out such that killers are guaranteed to get value out of a gen kick. It has always been a calculated risk and always should be. Otherwise it's just a completely braindead mechanic. Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous. Imagine playing against Ruin with that. Granting instant 5% regression from a kick is a lot more reasonable, but the mechanic is fine as is; it's just one potential balance lever the devs could pull if killers are ever underperforming. That regression is not necessary to counter tapping, since you can already counter tapping by not kicking gens without kick-based perks when survivors are right next to them.
If a gen is at 80% and you're chasing a survivor around a tile where a gen is, you should very likely not kick that gen. The main exception would be if you're running a powerful kick-related perk like Pop, and even then it can be a bad decision in some situations, especially if you're playing a low-mobility killer. Not kicking the gen is not "giving survivors the gen for free". You need to get downs and hooks to pull survivors off gens and ultimately remove them from the game. If you're trading the opportunity for downs and hooks for some likely modest regression from kicking a gen you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation. If survivors are likely to get back on that gen a matter of seconds after you kick it, you would have been better off not kicking it and using those couple seconds to pressure survivors.
Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT.
0 -
Gen times are fine for the most part its the lack of mobility most killers have and the default regression being the worst thing known to man that are the issue.
1 -
Almost 5800 hours, playing both sides, always Rank 1 on both sides. So yeah, I have no idea what I am talking about, clearly.
The thing is, I can accept that I am the reason why I lose my games as Killer and not Genspeeds, SWF or whatever cheap excuse most people make up for their losses.
And personally, I would consider myself a Survivor Main, because I like that role more, despite playing both roughly the same. And I would also not say that I am good at Killer, but if I can do fine and dont complain when I lose, this makes me question how bad players are who complain on a constant basis.
But even without having over 5000 hours in the game someone should know that Gen Times of 2 minutes are way too much. (And even if they would be that long, there would still be some people who struggle and demand more...)
3 -
Instead of increasing the time we should probably make generators more difficult to repair.
Imagine even good survivors not being able to watch a rwitch stream while repairing a gen 😂
1 -
You get good survivors or swf as killer and idiots as survivor. what perks alter the game on the killer side that can't just be disabled at the start of the game?
0 -
I've got all the set up for streaming on Twitch (sans face cam) and even not counting that have recording software. I just don't fire it up when I play because I'm playing for fun and the majority of matches I do play are not worth recording.
But every so often you have that one game where dumb and or insane things happen and you wish you had it recorded... .
This is the first I'm hearing the "check point" idea. One thing to keep in mind is that new people are always coming into the game and onto the forums so ideas that are old hat to you are new to them. I only recently started the game, end of 2020, and have only been on the forums for a few months as of this posting so I'm trying to play catch-up on a lot of things.
I'm not really sure how I feel about having Ruin, even a weaker version of Ruin that stops at key points, being a base-kit sort of thing. It always feels bad as Survivor when you get a gen to the high 90% of completion and are then chased or, worse, grabbed, off of it and when you can finally get back around to the gen you find no other Survivor came by in the time you were gone and it's now either totally dead or in the low 20%. I've been there as Survivor. It makes me want to cry when it happens.
So if there were check-points there would need to be more of them and not less. Maybe something like every 15% was "banked" unless the gen was in "regression mode", which is either active Ruin or having been kicked and not repaired since the kick. It's easy enough to gain 15% and being caught out between those marks won't feel as bad when you can get back to the gen as Survivor. It's also give Killers a bit more reason to kick a gen after downing someone, because if you can get it under one of the check-points before another Survivor comes along and then bother that gen again once they you get more regression.
The only issue when it comes to having check-points is how it would interact with Surveillance. Maybe add in a fourth color for when a gen hits a check-point instead of regression being stopped by a Survivor? I'm not sure if they go from white to red if they hit zero or not or if they hit yellow for a moment before going back to red. Maybe when it hits the check-point it just goes right back to red without having been yellow. Bit of an odd duck.
The repair speed hinderance shouldn't be too high, and I think 30% is just too high. The point isn't to prevent Survivors from repairing gens early to but make the game more fun both both sides. Also I think the main two conditions should be either to escape a chase or change health states. so if the Killer finds you and they either choose not to chase you or do chase you and you slip away you're no longer hindered. It's basically to same as having started the chase but doesn't take into effect until the chase is over.
And really almost anything that gets people to Do The [bad word]ing Bones is a win in my book. Helps me as Survivor, fewer chances for NOED, and helps me as Killer, keeps them off gens for some time.
When I play Survivor I'm pretty much always playing Solo, very rarely do I ever get to play in a SWF. I'm often teamed up with two and three person SWFs though. You are ignoring that if you do anything to a less than four man SWF you'll be hurting Solo players.
I consider myself to be a Killer Main, for every Survivor game I play I play maybe five or six Killer games. Having said that I still say that we shouldn't try and nerf SWF but instead should in some way buff Solo. And then once Solo is on-par with SWF and Killers are starting to underperform then we buff Killers. At no point in time should there ever been a penalty for playing with your friends. For every team of four de-pip squad hard-core gen-rushers out there there are many more teams of four friends who just want to casually enjoy their game of cat-and-mouse together with someone they don't know as the Killer. There is no way for the game to tell two groups apart so anything you do to one will impact the other and make it less fun for the casual people.
And if I haven't made it clear yet my whole goal is the make the game the most fun it can be for everyone. I know you can't totally please everyone but you can make it so that there more people that are happy than there are people that are unhappy, and punishing you for playing with your friends isn't the way to make people happy.
Unless they are the sort of people who like that sort of thing that is. Which I play Dark Souls so... .
In my example game on this very post I have that exact scenario you talk about early in the game. Getting the Tinkerer proc and bothering two people on a gen, hitting one before looping back to the other person to chase that person off as well and getting a hit. That gen didn't get finished until later in the game. Ruin did it's job and I did mine. I was putting pressure on people to give Ruin time to work. I wasn't always bothering two people at once but I was constantly in chase and I was getting hooks often enough that it didn't feel too bad. At many points I knew where three or all of them were at because of various reasons and most of those times the answer could be summed up as "Not on a gen".
Ruin didn't go down until three gens had been finished, and by that time I had single hooked everyone, second hooked one person (who was saved in the middle of ->) and was in chase with a third who I'd already injured and was in a good position to down because they were in a dead zone.
My problem was that I felt like I was applying decent pressure and gen were still getting finished so fast. There never seemed to be any time only one Survivor was working on a gen, it was always at least two people, so I was really sure it was Prove Thyself but it wasn't.
I will freely admit I'm not the best Killer player, and that I have a lot to learn and get better at. But saying basically nothing more than "Apply more pressure" is not constructive advice. How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them? Slug? Because the answer always seems to come back around to either tunneling or slugging and I don't normally do the former unless someone has been toxic and I don't do the later for a 4k but will do it sometimes to slow things down a bit.
A minute is a long time in this game and 50% is super punishing AND being Oblivious is basically a free hook to every Killer ever, the only reason it's not broken on Nightmare is because of the kid's song. If this was done only the extreme masochists would ever play Survivor and that'd kill the game more than the lack of Killer Players ever would.
Being hooked should already be punishment enough for getting caught, no reason to slap on a repair penalty as well. And, again, a minute is a really long time in this game. The Haste effect is also better than D.S. and is really what D.S. wants to be: true anti-tunnel. You can't get tunneled if the Killer can't catch you after all.
If you gave Survivors a reward for others dying it would encourage them to be less helpful to the teammates while at the same time also encouraging Killers to slug more often. While the idea seems nice at first glance it isn't in-line with what is intended to be normal gameplay.
I'm all for adding to base-kit gen kicking. 2.5% is really reasonable, I normally say maybe 1 or 2 personally but 2.5 isn't a bad idea. But this topic isn't about base-kit kicking or regression, no matter how many people keep bringing it up. If you have an active Ruin the whole game kicking never comes into play.
If this was done then everyone would switch to using Brand New Parts the way I use Brand New Parts: for the last 25% of the gen, making it pointless. I pretty much always wait to use my toolbox to finish a gen, this includes when I run B.N.P. so making it highlight a gen does nothing to it, unless you also add that it can only be used on a gen under 50% or something like that, which would be a big nerf.
I don't mean to be mean and just shoot down all of your ideas but my goal is to make the game more fun for both sides, not just for Killer. While it most likely won't be possible to make things fun for Killer without making them harder on Survivors in some way there should be something that can be done to make it at least some what more fun and interaction on the Survivor side. Just slapping penalties on them is neither fun nor interactive.
Lack of mobility with stupid large maps. I was playing a slow Killer as well so "lack of mobility" was probably a key factor in why the gens felt like they went by so fast.
I'd rather not get quick time events please. They are one of the things that is putting me off of Home Sweet Home: Survive. I don't mind skill checks because it's the same key every time and you get a good warning. Having to worry about what key to hit is what annoys me about Q.T.E.s and what H.S.H.:S. has going for it, being either "Q" or "E" is not fun to me.
I'd be all for adding more skill-check to gens, but have it so that only a few of them have the "Great" area on them, being more like an Overcharge check or an Autodidact one. Because if they are just base skill-checks having more of them would defeat the purpose because good Survivors can hit that "Great" more often than not and those 1% jumps add up over time. This would interact oddly with Stake Out but it could be changed to say like "for checks with a Great area Good" or something.
1 -
Buffing solo means buffing 2-3 man swf then by your logic
0 -
Just add 20 seconds to them.
0 -
I mean 6 check points would be every 16.6%, which is pretty close to 15 as is. Every 15% wouldnt be a round number of checkpoints
0 -
In a round-about way, yes, it does. Because the solos with the SWF do better.
As I've already said Solo needs to be better first then we can make Killer better, the answer is not "Make SWF worse".
But I am getting the sense that you don't care about finding a solution so much as you care about having an argument. So unless you start trying to not be argumentative I'm done talking at you, because I am sure not talking with you at the moment.
0 -
15, 30, 45, 60, 75, and 90. That's six. 100% is already a "check-point" so doesn't need to factor into things and as such doesn't really matter it's only 10% instead of another 15%. The top check-point below 100% probably wouldn't come into play all that often but it'd be there.
0 -
Just make gen repairs 50% slower in the first 60 or 90 seconds (figure out the timing in the PTR). Sure, some survivors may try to wait that out (ala corrupt intervention, although even at high ranks I've seen very, very few teams try to completely hide for 120 seconds), but that creates some fun cat and mouse in the beginning anyway.
2 -
Remember Early-game collapse? That was a fun idea :) Too bad it's never going to be implemented :))
2 -
"1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time." Just like touching a gen mid-chase is touching a gen at a bad time, so why not punish that survivor by regressing that gen faster?
"If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped." For you to get value out of that kicked gen, it would have needed to regress at least 15%, which means you would have needed to kick that generator 45 seconds ago. How long does it take 1 survivor to negate that regression? 12 seconds. 2 survivors can negate that regression in 7 seconds. So, that's 47 seconds of killer time that is negated in at least 12.2 seconds of survivor time. If the survivor cannot tap that gen, the longer they chase around that gen, the more it regresses and it would actively force the survivor to leave the area or lose their progress. But they can prevent that by tapping for 0.1 seconds.
"If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time." IF it took you 0.5 seconds to stop and tap a gen, which is false, it can be done as quickly as 0.1 seconds. Besides, that 4 seconds of chasetime, you can gain back by vaulting 1 window. And besides, if that gen is nearly finished, it would force the killer to either give up that generator to survivors or kick it. So if you tap a gen that's at 90%, you're pretty much either guaranteeing that gen to be finished, or force that killer to kick it, gaining you 13 seconds in chase.
So lets compare: 1 action taking 0.2 seconds that loses you 4 seconds in chase at best and if the opponent punishes you, their punishment can instantly be negated vs 1 action taking 2 seconds that loses you 13 seconds in chase at least, and if your opponent punishes you, you are required to negate that punishment by taking 2 seconds. But lets compare it the other way around: If you have a survivor that is at 99% of being sacrificed, a survivor can tap them to prevent the sacrifice, force a hit, trigger BT and have the BT tank the hit for you. Safely escaping both of you. Taking you about 3 seconds to unhook(vs the 2 seconds of kicking) while the killer needs 4 seconds to gain a new hook at the very least. So we have 3 seconds vs 4 seconds on killer objective while 1 survivor is interrupting the killer objective with 2 teammates actively working on their own objective, while you have 0.2 seconds vs 2 seconds on the survivor objective, while the survivor nearby can actively prevent their objective from regressing, with 3 teammates actively working on objectives with no other killers being able to interrupt them. How can you still think gentapping is fine but 5% base regression on kicking a gen is too much?
"It should generally lead to shorter chases...It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place." EXCEPT THAT THE RISK IS NEARLY NON-EXISTENT FOR SURVIVORS. SERIOUSLY. I have played survivor for 1200 hours, I have played killer for 1200 hours. 90% of my chase time on either side has the survivor already being injured. Let alone that a lot of survivors use Dead Hard to extend a chase significantly. Dead Hard alone fully negates the risk for survivors tapping gens. The only way to actively punish gentapping is to have Pop and down the survivor who tapped the gen before survivors had time to finish that generator. So we have pressing E to fully negate the risk of gentapping, vs a full chase, a hook and walking all the way back to the gen that was being tapped to negate the time you would otherwise need to risk kicking the gen. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT EQUAL RISK. Since Gentapping has been in the game since the beginning, the only alteration is adding base regression rewarding the killer to invest 2 seconds of his time into regressing the generator with 4 seconds, punishing people gentapping while STILL losing 9 seconds of chase, while the survivor only loses 4 seconds in chase. SO EVEN WITH THE BUFF, SURVIVORS WOULD HAVE HALF THE RISK OF THE KILLER. Seriously, have you ever played killer at high ranks? Because you clearly have not, I mean, look at this, 4 ######### paragraphs just to address how wrong your first point is in logic.
"2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot." 13 meters* And even if it were 8, that same logic should apply to the SURVIVOR, who decided to touch the gen at a bad time. Either way, there is an issue here. Either survivors should no longer be able to tap gens, or killers need to get a base reward for kicking a gen. Because survivors only lose 4 meters if they suck at tapping gens, while killers lose 13 meters even if they optimized the distance by giving a hit, instantly kicking the gen and having the survivor run into a dead zone. AGAIN, 4 METERS LOST IF THE SURVIVOR IS BAD, 13 METERS LOST IF THE KILLER TIMED IT PERFECTLY.
The other logic here would be to give survivors a basekit overcharge skillcheck if they were in chase, which would punish them with 10% if they miss. Either way, there is an issue.
"One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time." Really, do I really have to put things in caps here just so that you will have an easier time reading why you are wrong here? IT TAKES 5 FULL MINUTES. AND THAT IS ASSUMING THAT ONLY 1 SURVIVOR IS ON THAT GEN. IF THERE IS 2 SURVIVORS, THAT'S AT MOST 44 SECONDS OF PASSIVE REGRESSION. 5 MINUTES FOR 100% OF ONE SIDE THAT CAN BE CANCELLED WITH 0.1 SECONDS OF 25% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE, VS 44 SECONDS FOR 50% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE THAT REQUIRES 2 SECONDS TO START PASSIVELY REGRESSING FROM 100% OF THE ONE SIDE. YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT APPLY.
"Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress." IRRELEVANT, Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, a killer cannot always regress 1 generator.
"Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous." 10 seconds mid chase*
" You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation." In this situation, your logic holds up. After survivors are capable of finishing 75% of their objective and made the mistake of keeping 3 generators very close or if the killer forced that situation upon you, then base regression is strong enough to keep up with gentapping. Lets clarify this: The killer needs to reduce his patrol area enough that he can keep pressure on 3 generators simultaneously, either giving away 4 gens for free or the survivors making the mistake of not keeping the area of remaining generators maximized, only then is base genregression fast enough to keep patrolling while also focussing on his own objective of hooking survivors. Do you realize how idiotic this sounds? That means that if survivors break up any possible 3 gen early on, the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator.
"Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT." It does tho, because hooks are the killer objective, while gens are survivor objective. It takes 60 seconds per hookstate, the only way to speed that up is by having survivors unhook their teammate ASAP, which needs to be pressured by hooking another survivor ASAP. Otherwise the 2 survivors just will stay on gens untill they need to save their teammate. So thats 60 seconds spread over 2 generators, having 2 gens around 80% while you're on your way to hook the other. Meaning that early in the game, you can lose 3-4 generators for 2 hooks. If chasing was all there was for the killer, your logic would be sound. But its not. The killer needs to hook while preventing gens from popping all alone, survivors need 1 of them distracting the killer, 1 of them consistently on generators and the other 2 either being on gens or 1 on hook and 1 saving the person on the hook. Regardless of the situation, there will always be 1 survivor objective being actively progressed, while the killer objective only progresses once he hooks a survivor. This alone makes your logic that gentapping is fine completely irrelevant. Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, and that progress is 4x faster than the regression is. So even if it were a 2v1 situation, as long as you are in chase, 1 generator is progressed with 1 charge per second. Meaning that if a gen were regressing that you could tap, would only regress about 25% between the killer kicking it, and your teammate finishing a gen. The fact that survivors have 4 seperate agents to consist of a team makes it nearly impossible for 1 generator to regress from 80% all the way back to 0 unless survivors actively ignore that generator for 4 minutes. In those 4 minutes for that 1 generator to regress, 2 survivors can finish 5 generators and open the exitgate. The only real way of negating this, is to already give survivors generators that are outside your effective region for free to reduce the amount of area you need to patrol. Having survivors being able to negate regression for free, while you kicking 1 generator means that another generator is likely gaining 3 full charges by the time you finished kicking it, which takes roughly 12 seconds to regress passively, the same amount of time you LOSE IN CHASE by kicking a gen, makes it an issue. So again, your logic does not apply.
The only way your logic fully applies, is assuming the killer can keep more than 1 generator regressing consistently. Which is why Ruin is such a strong hex as long as it stands, as not only does it double the rate, it also keeps all generators that people are not working on in the regression state. But Ruin isnt basekit, its near impossible for a killer to keep more than 1 generator regressing, let alone keep a generator regressing for prolonged times.
So a TL;DR of the situation
base gen regression is fine:
-assuming there will be a 3 gen
-assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens
-assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen
-assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place
1 -
"How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them?"
My main rule of thumb has been: if 3 generators are finished, 1 survivor needs to die. Regardless if the only survivor that is dead on hook has just been unhooked. One of them needs to die. It's not really tunneling, because you already hooked people extremely fairly at that point, and they made the mistake of finishing the 3rd gen before you had a chance of getting someone else dead on hook. Sometimes tunneling is needed. Survivors wont hesitate tapping a generator you just kicked, survivors wont hesitate using DS at 59 seconds, survivors wont hesitate using dead hard to a pallet to extend the chase. So why should you hesitate removing someone from the match if you need someone gone?
The only way to punish gens going fast, is by making a kill go fast. I prefer hooking everyone twice if I get the chance to, because I enjoy giving survivors the chance to learn, especially since matchmaking is kinda screwy right now, but if I notice a team can handle their own and they are going too fast, they are forcing my hand into killing their teammate. Besides, if someone else was unhooked without you actively going after them, and them crossing your path later on at 3 gens, they ######### up and deserve to be hooked even if they are dead on hook. Tunneling requires you to actively go after someone who was unhooked recently. If it's been 30 seconds of you not actively chasing them and they happen to get across your path, it can no longer be considered a tunnel. I've had cases where I hooked the same person twice in a row with 5 gens remaining, simply because I couldnt find their teammates. I literally spend 40 seconds checking every single gen to find a survivor and looped back on the generator close to the hook to only find the survivor who got unhooked. Sometimes games be like that. Dont be afraid to get hooks on people. As long as you dont rush them out of the game, they've had plenty of time to heal up, work on gens or get their teammates to tank a hookstate.
Essentially, you seem to be too afraid of people getting mad for being tunneled. Sometimes tunneling is the only way of turning the tides. Do not throw your own game to satisfy your opponents, they wouldnt throw their game to satisfy you either.
2 -
Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick, which is a great return on investment in most cases, not a bar to clear before kicking becomes viable. It also makes no sense to count time the gen is sitting there regressing as "killer time" that's being wasted. Without kick-based perks, most of the value of kicking a gen as a killer comes from the passive regression. As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself.
There is no point in comparing distance lost from tapping a gen mid-chase with kicking a gen mid-chase. As I said in my last comment, you should almost never be kicking a gen mid-chase. Doesn't matter if that gen is at 90%. If you kick that gen and lose at least ~10 meters of distance on the survivor you're almost certainly giving up more time and pressure than you're going to save with that kick. You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen.
It doesn't matter if you're able to complete the tapping action itself in .1 seconds. You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1. .5 seconds was meant as a reasonable estimate.
You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases, so I don't think that point is worth addressing.
It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up.
It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen. As I have already said, the reason that killers need to take time to break a gen is because of the potential passive time gain. Survivors cannot walk up to a gen, tap it, and be rewarded with passive time gain. Tapping a gen is just countering a killer action that passively gives the killer value. If survivors hypothetically had an option to complete an action to make gens passively gain progress I would 100% agree with you that it should require a substantial time investment. Tapping gens is not that. This feels like playing AoE2, charging a few light cavalry into a ball of pikemen, and complaining that pikeman shouldn't be so cheap and comparatively quick to produce instead of realizing that you're not using the light cavalry correctly.
Making gens specifically harder to tap while you're in a chase needlessly adds complexity to the game and it might not even work as well as you'd think. Plenty of killers will regularly break chase just because of how their power works. The game thinks that the chase is over, but actually Nurse is just on fatigue and waiting for her blinks to charge again, for example. Survivors could just cheese this to tap gens regardless, so between this and just being able to tap gens as normal when you're actually out of chase, you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides.
The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression. It is intentionally slow and counterable so that survivors are actually able to complete their objectives. There is an absolute gulf between "base regression is strong enough to keep up with gen tapping" and "the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator", and it's not like a three-gen flips a switch between one and the other either. In a three-gen, unless you have strong kick-based perks or you've already killed a couple surivors (so the tracking element is useful and you're also more likely to get mileage out of the regression), kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously, so any kicks will be countered shortly after you switch the gen you're pressuring. The best option is, as usual, not to kick and to prioritize dealing damage. You might not be able to get downs easily in a three-gen, but injuring a survivor at least forces them to run away to heal or makes them vulnerable on the gen. Kicking just wastes your time.
To address the BT comparison, killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them. If a survivor is tapping a gen in front of the killer and that gen has not been regressing for a while, the killer should not have kicked that gen in the first place. Meanwhile, if a survivor is saving right in front of a killer, maybe they're just farming WGLF stacks with BT or something, but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook. The situations are nothing alike. If we're just comparing any two things that relate to survivor and killer objectives we're going to be at it for a while. Also, just don't swing right away if you find people are baiting swings by tapping the person on the hook. It takes a second to unhook a teammate. That is not a lose/lose situation for the killer.
---
TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine. Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression. Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer. Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic. If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression.
It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be. Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good. Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad.
1 -
make ruin base kit for killers
0 -
Make ruin basekit for killers and make DS basekit for survivors. That's my take on it.
1 -
What if they added a totem counter for survivors and made NOED baseline? Then instead of forcing survivors to spend more time on gens, they have a choice of spending time doing totems or push through gens and know they need to deal with NOED. A sort of optional secondary objective that makes endgame harder if ignored.
2 -
The problem is not the speed of repairing a gen. 80s if fine by mid/late game. The problem is the early game where even the most snowball killer will take so much time to get their first down that 2-3gen can easily pop and by then if survivor play well & have big impact perk (ds/bt/etc) you can't do much afterward.
What if we made hex more viable and more fair for both side like in this video:
Survivor can still gen run but they will have to destroy more than just 1 totem to negate a strong hex perk, slowing down the game. Survivor could either play against a strong HEX perk or do a secondary objective.
Second problem I have is the lack of interaction on the survivor side. Maybe more skill check or have skill check make you press 2-3 different buttons IDK but holding M1 for 80s is just lame.
0 -
"base gen regression is fine:
-assuming there will be a 3 gen
-assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens
-assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen
-assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place"
So we're assuming that the game is balanced around:
- Tunnelling one survivor out of the game asap.
- Establishing a 3 gen.
So... why is it bad for a killer to do these things?
0 -
how would you even come to this conclusion? The game is not balanced around getting a survivor out asap, nor is it balanced around getting 3 gens. Heck, the devs have been trying to implement things to prevent 3 gens and rushing kills to be meta and give survivors tools to punish survivors forcing 3 gens or rushing out kills.
But yeah, base gen regression is what leads a lot of players to decide to rush out a kill and enforce a 3-gen if they assume their opponent is a sweat squad, because its the only true way to use gen regression as a killer. Any other scenario and gen regression is a joke.
Devs need to give a reason for killers to patrol gens, they need to reward killers for taking time to kick a gen. Gentapping is fine as a mechanic, but the kicking vs tapping is ridiculous.
0 -
I'd like to see something that slows down the early game, fixes 3 genning, tunneling and camping and overall makes the game better.
Tweak numbers, but:
Double or even triple the time it takes to repair a generator
Give survivors a stacking buff that increases the speed of repairing a generator by 1%, call it "Hope". Cap it at 150 stacks. Survivors don't gain stacks until either:
- the killer has hit any survivor
- The killer goes within 6 meters of any survivor
- The killer "powers up" in any way (oni, myers, ghostface, etc.)
If a survivor is being chased, they don't gain stacks. If a survivor is hit, they lose 50 stacks. If they get hooked, they lose all their stacks and don't gain any until they are unhooked.
This would slow the early game down. It would also highly discourage tunneling, because the guy who just got unhooked has 0 stacks and is repairing generators extremely slowly compared to the other survivors that might be capped on stacks. It discourages camping for the same reason. This also makes 3 genning weaker. Because survivors could go to the other side of the map, and gain stacks, then go start repairing the generator much more quickly. This forces the killer to leave the 3 gen to go after the survivors, or stay and risk them repairing the gen much more quickly.
0 -
"Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick" It's 12 seconds of survivor repairs. But it's enough to kick a generator, patrol 4 other generators and return before it's finished, or finish a chase and return before that gen is finished. In total, that's 2 seconds+45 seconds+11 seconds=58 seconds, with 1 second left of it being finished. That is assuming the gen is being solo'd. If its 2 people fixing it, that's a total of 54 seconds. In the same time, survivors could have finished 1 gen together and work on that other gen together, giving 45+7+travel time=52 seconds+travel time. So if 2 survivors are working on a gen together before you have time to kick that generator, you're guaranteed to lose both. Even with the 15% regression, but at least with the 15% regression, you can return to the generator you kicked and potentially injure 2 survivors, slightly shortening the chase while forcing at least 1 heal.
"As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself." If you call 0.1% potential. That's like saying Power Struggle without flip flop still has the potential to stun the killer. Yes, there is a slight chance for it to work out in your favor, but that is the exception, not the rule.
"You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen." Again, how? The survivor can easily drop a pallet, tap a gen and leave the area without being punished at all. Tapping a generator is essentially free. No punishments. The only risk you take is that Bloodlust has more time to accumulate, but drop a god pallet and the killer is forced to lose all his stacks. Gen tapping has no punishment. The only punishment that is recieved with gentapping, is the survivor being bad.
"You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1." Except, that it is. You almost NEVER have to deviate from your path. Generator inside a T&L? Free tap. Generator in a Jungle Gym? Free tap. Generator in the killer shack? Free tap. Generator in the main building? unless it's Haddonfield, Thompson House, Mother's Dwelling or Coal Tower(aka, the stronger survivor sided maps), free tap. Generators part of a pallet loop? free tap. I can go on. The only generators that are not a free tap, are 4 man gens. The rest are easily a drive-by when you're running towards a pallet or a window anyway. You do not have to deviate from your path in the vast majority of cases.
"You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases" Yes, I can, you know why? Because you can gain distance too. Heck, sometimes losing distance can allow you to gain more distance than not having lost that distance would. Aka a dead hard to a window or pallet to avoid an m1 hit from a killer because he got too close, forcing the killer to walk around, which you might not have been able to do because the distance was slightly longer, meaning you would already be past the window or pallet, which already forced the killer to walk around without using their m1 gaining you distance. Let alone that getting hit in an enclosed area allows you to take advantage of that situation and discombobulate the killer a bit with misleading scratchmarks, which would have been a hit out in the open otherwise. I can think of plenty more situations where giving up distance leads to a longer chase. And even the easiest one: Adrenaline. Tapping a generator to prevent it from regressing means you have more chance of Adrenaline triggering mid-chase, where leaving the generator regressing might trigger Adrenaline too late.
"It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up." Eh, I'm too far with this comment to look up the original context, worst case scenario, I made 1 mistake by misreading my old comment. The overall point still stands.
"It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen." How is it relevant? Again, there are already gens passively progressing from the killer POV since there are 3 survivors that are not being chased. Having potentially 3 generators being progressed with 1 charge per seconds gives that killer 80 seconds to hook you and push off survivors off all 3 generators before 3 generators pop. A popped generator cannot be undone. Generator regression is more important to a killer than getting hooks is. That is why it's irrelevant. A killer cannot hold m1 on a hook and magically make a survivor appear on there. A killer has to walk around the map to capture his objective. Survivors do not need to walk around for their objectives. Since gen regression is so important for killers, having an action that is essentially free for survivors that completely stops regression, there is an issue. That is why the passive progress is irrelevant. You know what would be equal? The killer being able to instantly down and hook a survivor within 0.1 second of the survivor being unhooked. Yet, that's not the case, let alone that there are perks preventing that from happening. Killers do not have a BT equivalent for generators that they kicked. They do not have a DS equivalent for gens that they have kicked(Overcharge actually gets close, but you can hit a skillcheck to prevent Overcharge, you cant hit a skillcheck to prevent DS as a killer). You might argue that Pop is similar to DS in effect, which is true time-wise, but that only works if they hook a survivor. Which would be like survivors getting DS if they finish a generator. As a killer, you cannot kick a generator and prevent survivors from touching it for 15 seconds. So equal actions: unhooking a survivor vs kicking a generator, taking roughly equal time. Yet one can be cancelled/paused within 0.1 seconds and the other one can be prevented by BT, tanking hits, DS and even Camaraderie. Let alone that killers do not have addons or perks that significantly speed up the sacrificing of survivors. If survivors ignore someone on the hook for 58 seconds and unhook them on the 59th seconds, they still saved the survivor in time. If killers ignore a generator for 78 seconds and kick it on the 79th second, that gen is still lost. Let alone that survivors have access to toolboxes, brand new part, fast track prove thyself, resillience, spinechill and soon object of obsession to increase generator speeds. So yeah, passive progression on generators not being there after a tap is irrelevant. This should clarify why it's irrelevant.
"The game thinks that the chase is over" You're actually wrong here. The game does not think the chase is over. You still have bloodlust after the music is gone for 5 seconds. The chase isnt over untill 5 seconds after you lost the survivor. Which means that if you re-initiate the chase within 5 seconds, the chase never ended. It just banked the points as a lost chase, but the chase doesnt end there. And if there is enough distance between you and the killer to actually not be in chase, yeah, gen tapping is fine, as it's not mid-chase. As for Nurse. So ######### what? Nurse doesnt need to touch a generator at all. Nurse doesnt need pop, doesnt need ruin, doesnt need anything other than information like Nurses calling, discordance, bbq, shadowborn, sloppy butcher, blood hound, infectious fright. Nurse is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Even more irrelevant than the argument that gentapping doesnt passively progress the generator(it actually can, btw. If you tap a gen with BNP, it will passively gain 15% progress).
"you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides." Good, because that deters people from relying on it.
"The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression." Never argued that.
"kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously," If this is true in a final gen situation, it's not a 3 gen. It might be close to one, but it is not. A 3-gen gives you the possibility to have equal pressure on minimally 2 gens consistently, being able to keep survivors injured and while they run off, kick the gen they were working on to regress it to 0 while they are forced to heal to try again or try to bait you out. If you cannot afford to kick a gen, you dont have a 3 gen. Just a strong final setup.
"killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them." They actually should, generator progression being fast enough to finish all 5 generators before the killer is capable of guaranteeing a kill is enough of a factor that killers do need to force generators to regress. Which is why Ruin is ran a lot, because it removes the need to kick gens while also having better regression. Pop is used a lot aswell, but with Pop you actually dont want to kick any generator that has less than 25% progression. Killers SHOULD be forced to kick gens, and in fact kicking them should reward them in some way that punishes a survivor that taps it. Whether that's 5% instant regression or 5-10 seconds of double regression rate doesnt matter. As long as it gives a survivor a reason to not tap the generator in front of a killer that's chasing them.
"but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook." Double standard AND a false assumption. There are plenty of reasons why the killer is nearby a hook: Scratchmarks leading to the hook, the killer actually seeing you run to the hook and trying to hooktrade, the survivor nearing second stage and the killer trying to ensure second stage is being reached. Camping is actually rarely the case for BT triggering. "usually just doing what they have to do" LIKE THE KILLER PREVENTING GENERATORS FROM POPPING BY REGRESSING THEM? Seriously, double standards much.
"TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine." It really isnt.
"Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression." 2 full seconds, meaning up to 4 other gens could gain 4 charges, for the 0.1% chance the generator regresses longer than 60 seconds that coincides to a whopping 16 extra seconds of solo survivors touching the gen. Totally fine.
"Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer." Just dont unhook survivors at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as a survivor. Oh, nvm, BT. Or just like you shouldnt tap a gen at stupid times an- oh, nvm, dead hard into a pallet. Yeah, totally fine.
"Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic." So what is it, totally fine or a fundamentally flawed mechanic? You cant have both. And its not a specific killer buff, it's not like it only affects trapper. Its a generic killer buff just to have a quality of life to kicking generators. The suggestion isnt even hard to implement. They already have a similar effect in the game.
"If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression." Except that generator progression vs generator regression is THE reason that survivors are overperforming in high ranks. There is literally no other survivor mechanic in the game that is as impactful as progression vs regression. If killers have enough time, you could literally add 1 billion pallets to the game. You cannot shorten the average chases, because that makes survivor very unfun to play, and killer a lot less skill full. So the average time to match up chase time is to give killers the ability to regress generators. Heck, it could even be basekit that generators start regressing normally and that Pop disables gen regression. Gives Repressed Alliance more play aswell. As long as there is some benefit to gen regression.
"It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be." I am actually frustrated at you being incapable or extremely unaware of playing killer. Gen progression is fine as it is, its the ratio between progression and regression that is not. Therefor, gen regression needs to be better. That is the reason that gen regression needs to be stronger. Since survivors can stop generators from regressing the instant they touch a gen, the only reasonable place to add the bonus in gen regression is at the moment of kicking.
"Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good." It really doesnt tho. In fact, giving killers more reason to kick gens normally and finally not needing to rely on Pop or Ruin would increase the skill ceiling. Killers should not require to choose 1 of 2 perks to stand a chance. That's like requiring survivors to be forced to run DS to stand a chance. Survivors never were forced to run any specific perks or perk combination to stand a chance. So why should killers be forced to?
"Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad." It really wouldnt tho. Besides, even if it would significantly impact soloQ, all the more reason to (finally) add in a ping system. HSHS has a ping system and it actually works more reliable than comms without actively impacting the skill of the killer. Buffing regression is fine.
0 -
This still punishes solos while also punishing people for wanting to play with friends.
If I'm a soloQ teamed up with 3 SWFs, I'm still suffering the effects of them having basically thanatophobia on them. And then if the Killer brings any other slow down perks? Yeah, my team is basically useless for gens at that point.
Likewise, my friends and I would always have a thanatophobia effect on us? Yeah, that's really fun to work against.
0 -
The issue here isn't gen speed per se - it's the simple fact that in almost every situation, longer matches weaken survivors and strengthen Killers. The more time you give a Killer in a match, the greater the Killer's chances are to get more kills - especially if they are using toxic tactics like slugging and camping. Survivors have no good reason to want to do things that make the match last longer. The secondary objective of totems remains just that - secondary. If you find one, you might cleanse it unless there's a gen nearby, in which case you're probably going to prioritize that gen. The only time you see someone prioritize totems is if they are working on a challenge.
0 -
remove gen tapping
killers take 3 seconds to kick a generator to slowly regress progress
survivors take 1/60th of a second to stop regression
2 -
Have each hook give the individual Survivor a permanent repair penalty, call it maimed. Killer is rewarded for switching up targets and individual survivors are less likely to be tunnelled but punished for failures.
1 -
SWF has advantage so why not? It not punishes solos. Just compensates advantage swf has since you're already in advantage by playing with 3stack.
Killers are punished just because people want to play with their friends and this is bullshit. Better punish survivors who plays together instead of killer. seems fair for me
1 -
No way man, gen times are 80 seconds, that can't go down 50% less than that. Also there is a perk that locks the gens from being used at the start of the match for a period of time.
Making that 160 seconds for a gen to be fully finished would be absurd. And guess what? You'll more than likely lose alot of survivors for that. As they won't want the hassell of sitting at one gen for 2 minutes. The only way I can think of this being fairly done is maybe them being a single gen? Like one per gen sort of thing? That way it isn't boosted to fast. But I'm adamant 80 seconds is more than enough time before that gen is popped.
Having said this, I do think from a killer side of things, that it should cause more damage when taking action on the gen, maybe a little more damage on regression? ( if that's the right word)
0 -
Gen times take 80 seconds as it is alone my guy. That's more than enough time. Killers just need to put pressure on gens and patrol more... x2 on time wise to fix a gen is absurd. You'd lose alot of survivors, no survivors no match. Who in their right mind wants to sit at a gen for over 2 minutes 😂
1 -
yes
2 stacks to be more precise
0 -
Yeah, that sounds GREAT for sure. Sweaty swfs will get what they deserve finally
1 -
SWF is advantage, no matter youre sweating or not. In game advantages must be compensated
1 -
I'd like to refer to Scott's Jund suggestion. a Warn up Phase. At the start of the game, gen progression speed is at a slow crawl until the first chase officially begins. That way, trap killers can get some time to set up traps before starting a chase and survivors can get an inessive to begin a chase or to not hide the entire game to get the game moving or to harrass trap killers before they officially set up to counter them.
0 -
Gen speeds should be faster, not slower. It's too easy for killer to do their objective. Because maps are so nerfed survivors are all going down instantly, every match and with all the slow down perks that already exists, there is no way to finish the gens. It's bad when matches resort to hook farming instead of doing gens since they are practically impossible to do.
0 -
I do like the idea that gens start slower than they are now and get faster as the game goes on. I like the "Hope" idea because it would discourage camping and tunneling. We'll never out right remove either unless it is made literally impossible though so all we can really hope for is some strong discouragements, such as "If you don't hook Survivors they get faster on gens".
That'd help with camping but not so much tunneling, as if you get one Survivor out of the game A.S.A.P. you don't have to worry about their "Hope" stacks at all. Maybe if there was something along the lines of "If a Survivor is hooked a second or third time without another Survivor having been hooked all Survivors gain a stacking permanent X% bonus to repair, healing, cleansing, and unhooking speeds".
I am strongly of the mindset that tunneling is only a viable tactic because of gen speeds, so if something is done to give the Killer more pressure or to ease the pressure they are under then you have no reason to tunnel and should be punished for doing so. But as the gen speeds as they are right now I understand why people tunnel and slug, because they don't really have a choice if they want that 4k. Without Ruin and to a lesser extent Pop tunneling and slugging are really your only ways of slowing things down enough to win. So I do understand why they happen. Not really so much when they happen at five gens but I do somewhat understand.
Camping is a whole other story. There is no reason to ever camp. It is just out right anti-fun and only works against bad Survivors, netting you a 1k and maybe a 2k against good Survivors and you didn't even really play the game at all.
I agree, that's why I like the idea of adding in something Survivors have to do that makes the game go a bit longer that isn't just upping gen times, or if gen times are upped then adding in something that either lowers them to and then down past base or having something that makes you repair faster.
I'd rather the later as it feels more rewarding to "Be faster" at something than it does "Make it take less time". The human mindset is a funny thing.
I strongly believe that being one step closer to being taken out of the game is punishment enough for being hooked. We don't need to layer anymore on people for an honest mistake or just being bad at the game because they are learning.
The problem with the "Just apply more pressure" argument is that only a few Killers have good mobility options and some are even actively hindered in getting around the map because of their lower base movement speed. Nurse is really the only "slow" Killer not hurt by her base speed because of her Power. [bad word], because of her Power she's got the best mobility of every Killer with a skilled enough Player behind her. Spirit is also really strong because of her mobility, with Hillbilly being decent in getting around as is Cannibal with the right add-ons. New Wraith might become top tier like Spirit but he's got some things holding him back. Nightmare has his porting, which gets stronger as more gens get finished because he has fewer places he needs to check. Hag is alright but she has to control a very tight area because of distance limitations so her Power isn't about getting around as it is protecting key areas like Trapper.
Map sixes are an issue because of this. I've had a lot of Deathslinger games lately where I go straight from one side of the map to the other and the gen I am heading towards is already at 75+%, because Tinkerer goes off on it, before I even get there and when I do get there it get's finished in my face. Because I couldn't move fast enough to get there even though I had a mostly straight line and didn't get distracted with a chase along the way.
So until maps are fixed in such a way every Killer can "apply more pressure" our only other option is to look at gen speeds one way or the other. Make them slower, make them require something other than just holding M1 (making them slower because you need to find that thing) or just something that makes it so Survivors get one or two "free" gens because you just happen to be playing a 110% Killer.
I know I'm on page 3 and there is a page 4 but because of the way these forums work I'm responding on page 3 before looking at page 4 so you two may have already done this but I'm going to say : Don't bother with landromat, they don't want to have a discussion, they just want to be right. It seems that they personally don't play SWF and are heavily Killer sided and as such just want SWf punished, they are not looking for a discussion on how SWF could be more balanced or Solo buffed or Killer made on par with SWF. They just want SWF dead and gone and don't care about anything else.
So don't bother responding to them anymore, you are only wasting your time and feeding their ego. You'll notice I didn't @ them for this post myself.
0 -
One point I am going to address because it's a pet peeve of mine: Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well. Maybe there are unicorn SWF hit squads out there that regularly dominate even the best killers, but if they exist they are necessarily extremely rare compared to red rank players. As a result, killer does not need more net buffs so long as DBD uses rank-based matchmaking.
With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things. Until MMR is running and performing well, though, if you're a red rank killer, you should be performing well. If you're not, it's not regression's fault. It's not the game's fault. You're probably just not as good as the average red rank killer. If you're not performing well and want to get better, look at your own play or even ask people on the forum. If you are already performing well and you're aware that killer overperforms at high rank with rank-based matchmaking, stop asking for buffs.
---
If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game, and it's also not worth my time to reply further. The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase, while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase, is Exhibit A that you're just here to disagree.
By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself.
0 -
I think gen speed is fine. If you manage to get good pressure on survivors gen speed slows to a crawl. Once you get your first hook if you keep getting hooks you can pretty much keep it to 1 person repairing at any given time, if you manage to snowball you can completely stop repairs all together.
Ruin Tinkerer loses effectiveness vs good swfs because the moment you push them off a gen another survivor will come work it before it regresses too much. Compared to solos where ruin most of the time means that generator is going to lose like 50% if you push someone off it.
If you become over protective of the gens and drop chase every time tinkerer procs, survivors will realize this and begin using it to control you and it will cause you to lose the game. If you want to slow down repairs, you need to make survivors do things that aren't gens. Get more hooks, after you get a hook choose your next chase wisely to make someone go across the map for the save. Slug survivors. When it comes down to it the balance is really about how fast you can get downs. Perks can buy you some time, but in the end you have to down survivors faster to win or camp survivors to death at a 3 gen.
0 -
Ruin often wins games by itself if survivors can't find the totem. Making it base kit, and therefore uncleansable, would be a massive and unnecessary buff to killer.
With rank-based matchmaking, high-rank killers perform very well (~70% red rank kill rate for years now). Gen speed therefore does not need to be slowed down in public matches. There could potentially be an argument for helping killers a bit at low rank, since kill rates at low rank are way lower, but base kit Ruin would almost certainly be an overbuff regardless. When MMR is finally working well, it's possible killers may need some help at the very highest skll tiers too. If so, though, making Ruin base kit would seriously swing balance at all ranks, and therefore probably wouldn't be the best option for specifically toning down high-skill survivors.
0 -
I think the gen time is fine as they are, but I do think there should be different rulesets on games based off of the average rank (mmr in the future) which could affect the skillchecks system by making it much less forgiving for more experienced players.
Skillchecks should actually be a problem if you're on edge, working on that final gen under the killer's TR, not just some minor inconvenience you get rid off like some pestering fly that's landed on top of your tea mug.
0 -
@vladspellbinder no the gens need to stay as they are. The time frame on them is 80 seconds. And if the player has problems trying to pressure gens then that's the player In need of some practice and firm game play. It'll be ridiculous adding x2 timing for gens. Like I said, who would want to sit at one gen for over 2 minutes?
My best advice for the killers is find your most worthy player that's easy to play, practice to get good. Dont take it out on survivors and punish them with a 2 minute gen. I understand the frustration, I really do as i play both sides. And yes 2 gens at the start of the match pop in my face imma have to up my game plan! Thats when the ass kicking gets involved. All this gen rushing strategy business is nonsense. Many times have I played matches against a killer and still at 5 gens and everyone's been hooked at least once. It's about how you play, smart movements... I personally think adding x2 for gen times or a few comments of having to find parts or whatever to fix the gen is an awful idea... its supposed to be a fun game to play. And I'm just hearing negative things about this game now, so I'm going from absolutely loving the game to now do I just uninstall and be done with it? All the moaning on both sides is making the game very stupid to play at the moment... do I still play it? Of course. Just do you. Find your game plan system and stick to it. Cant take everything away from survivors just to suit the killer. This is why most survivors are saying this game is killer sided. And killers be saying its survivor sided, and those who do say that need to find some solid skill and not take it out on each other.
0 -
Make maps smaller or less infinite friendly (Haddonfield, cowshed, badham - looking at you, bud). That would actually improve the experience for both sides.
Nobody likes to sit on gen for whole match neither playing walking simulator while gens go brrrrrrrrrrrr.
1 -
that would be seven, and still not even then... Obviously we are including the last check. If 0-15 is a checkpoint why would (whatever the last is)-100 not be one for these purposes? And that still leaves 10% sitting on the table, its uneven for no reason. Sure you can just put 5 extra on the start and end, OR, you just do 16.7. OR just 4 quarters :/
0 -
I feel like this idea has been suggested before but here I go: Make so that gen speeds are proportional to how many survivors are alive. With all 4, gen speeds are reduced, when the first one dies it becomes the normal gen speed and it gets faster until there is only one survivor alive. I like this idea because it helps the killer early game, discourages the killer to tunnel to get fewer survivors on the trial and incentives survivors to go for gens, even though they are in a bad position (like two dead and 4 gens to go).
1 -
2 dead 4 gens to go.... easy mate. 😂
0 -
Nowadays, when it gets to this situation the survivors just go hiding and wait for the other one to die to get the hatch. If a progressive gen speed was created, then at least they would have a reason to try and escape together.
2 -
Gens don't open until you enter into a chase with one survivor, be it by you initiating the chase or a survivor. The only issue with this is stealth killers or killers with undetectable, which I'm sure there are ways to work around, such as a chase being enabled by virtue of an invisible TR that is applied when a survivor enters into x distance of you. You could also get around this by putting a simple CI timer on it all gens, which allows survivors the choice to stay immersed until every gen opens up. This forces killer interaction and also encourages you to take some time to go for chests or totems, which means it's a benefit to the killer and the survivor, as Hex's aren't super uncommon.
0 -
"Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well."
Killers statistically overperform due to the following reasons:
Red rank survivor mains are objectively worse at the game overall than red rank killer mains. Killers have an easier time picking up survivor gameplay and are practically guaranteed to be red rank survivors, where survivors need to learn a lot of things before they can touch red rank killer.
Once 1 survivor is dead relatively early on, its easy to snowball the rest.
Once killers have slugged more than 1 person in a short amount of time and see a 3rd injured person, they can very easily decide to slug for a 4k and win that game. Let alone that they would be forced to slug to achieve this, to stop gens from progressing. Slugging is not the solution to genspeeds.
Sometimes you get your 4k with only 5 total hooks, because you were only able to hook 1 survivor early game, with 3 generators popping, then the rest of the team not healing up and just pushing gens, triggering NOED which can easily lead to a 3k.
Because the end results are similar, does not mean the killer performed well.
Killers can snowball extremely hard in a singular moment, regardless of their overall performance. Survivors do not really have resources to combat it.
So while I agree that on average the game is fine, that doesnt mean it actually is. Because it's purely done through people playing nice, not rushing gens all the time, killers not rushing kills. I mean, do you think Nurse is easy to defeat? Statistically, she only gets a 2k on average, so Nurse is a terrible killer, right? Or not even this game, did you know that hate crime is a minority group in race based crimes, which is a minority in direct assault, which is a massive minority in crime overall. Does that mean it's fine because hate crime is statistically negligable? THIS is why statistics dont really say too much. It's at best an indication, but it needs context.
"With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things."
MMR would only prove my point further. This is general knowledge amongst players who have decent gameknowledge. I have enough experience and am not biased to my own skill. I know when I made a mistake, I know when my opponent made a mistake, I recognise when my opponent got lucky or when they calculated it prior to it. You have no clue how often I have faced killers who only won due to rushing a kill, you have no clue how often I have faced survivors who won due to rushing gens, regardless if they played well simply because the killer I played lacked the ability to finish chases and doesnt really have much power in slowing down gens(Myers has this a lot, especially because there is a limited amount of times you can instadown, even though you have killers like Bubba that are faster, equally mobile AND has a basekit instadown always available). You dont need MMR to prove the point, when players who play both sides already notice things they can and cannot improve upon. I have played games as killer that were so against my favor that even if I played absolutely perfectly, I wouldnt be able to win, let alone get more than 1 kill. The only vanilla mechanic I would have was rushing a kill, which was disabled due to old DS. I have also played games that were so much in my favor, that I could hook everyone once, then everyone a second time, before survivors could finish 3 generators simply because there were no usable tiles(the only reason making your position that "genregression is fine because of statistics" semi-valid, FYI, if there are no tiles to loop, gens cannot go fast enough, this is why The Game is extremely killer sided once all the pallets are gone)
--
"If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game""
Except that I have been re-evaluating my positions, a LOT. You simply seem to be ignorant about the base mechanics and point to statistics to prove your own point.
"The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase"
I do accept that it technically reduces the length of a chase, but YOU do not accept that sometimes less distance can lead into more distance. The perfect example: chase being reduced even by 4 meters can make the difference between 1 pallet loop giving you a down and the survivor dead harding to the pallet to drop it and extend the chase by another 20 seconds. Let alone the fact that decision making changes a lot based on distance, one point you might need to make a hard left and encounter a lucky pallet, extending the chase and otherwise you'll probably hold w and try to go for the tile in front of you. Giving up distance does not equal reducing the length of a chase. Random hail mary decisions will often lead to longer chases.
"while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase"
You do not understand the point here. We're talking a base genregression of 300 seconds for a generator to fully regress to zero, that can be stopped from any regression at all by tapping it mid chase while having minimal punishment. Do you know how long it takes to end a chase? Like, total time. Not just the moment the chase starts, because then it tends to last 30 seconds on average, I mean the time it takes for the killer to find a survivor, the time it takes to going from downing 1 survivor, to hooking them, to starting a chase with another survivor. Even with perks like BBQ, it can take up to 90 seconds to start another chase, and that is a perk that lets you know WHERE a survivor is. If you dont run BBQ, it can take much longer. You know what 2 survivors can do in those 90 seconds? Unhook their teammate and finish 2,5 generators. The only reason we dont see this more often, is because there is no way to communicate between solo survivors and SWF's are more likely to want to have fun. So games are already slowed down because survivors prefer to go for fun more than sweat it out, it's not a secret that the average red rank killermain is a better overal player than the average red rank survivormain(with mixed players tending to be better than both). So we have a player at higher skill consistently playing against players of lower skill(which, again, nudges statistics towards killers overperforming). If killers want to play fair against survivors, they would be throwing their own game at the current state of the meta. Too often do you hear "I am playing too nice" on killers who have hooked everyone once when only 2 generators are gone, even though chases are quick and hooks are consistent. But it should be fine if generator regression was fine, right? Survivors are at 3/7th of their objective while you are at 1/3rd, not that big of a gap, right? Except that survivors only have 3 gens to care about, while the killer still has 4 survivors to care about. General rule of thumb is that at least 1 survivor has to be dead on hook with 3 gens left, and 1 survivor must be dead with 2 gens left. With 4 people on their first hook, who is going to die? Genregression is not fast enough here to keep the killer playing fair. This is why Pop and Ruin are perks that are consistently ran together, 2 perks dedicated to generator regression, not because they want to, because they feel they need to. Survivors do not have a single perk they need to equip to win a game against killers of equal skill, yet killers do need Pop and/or Ruin to achieve the same. 2 perks that are designed with gen regression in mind. That's like survivors running Dead Hard and Lithe to make sure they get away from a killer.
Not even including the fact that there is no way to speed up hooks without the aid of survivors, while survivors can slap on toolboxes and perks to speed up their own objective. And yet here you are, still arguing base gen regression is fine. If base gen regression was fine, killers wouldnt feel the need to run Ruin or Pop and rather go for perks like Madgrit, Iron Maiden, Dying Light or Sloppy. You rarely see those perks at all and they are considered filler perks for most killers. Remove Ruin and Pop from the equation, and suddenly the "overperformance" disappears.
"By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself."
You are actually illiterate, arent you? The comparison I made was a survivor touching a gen mid chase vs a killer touching a gen mid chase. The survivor only "loses" 2 meters with teammates touching other gens, while the killer would lose 8 meters without other killers chasing other survivors away. Meaning that with the survivor gentapping, you completely stop regression for a price that's so significantly small that it might aswell not exist. If kicking a generator mid-chase is unviable, then so should gentapping be unviable. Dont go for a double standard. Gens already take 5 full minutes to regress and in that same time you can finish 4 other generators. While for a killer to kick ANY generator, be it in or out of a chase, would also lead in at least 2 generators gaining 5% more charges than if the killer fully ignored that generator, which can be up to 30% if people brought toolboxes and Prove Thyself. The only counterplay then? Tunneling a survivor out. You cannot reliably kick any generator without risking another one, so the other option is to kill a survivor early to slow the game down.
Do you want tunneling to remain meta? I sure dont. But it is needed, BECAUSE BASE GEN REGRESSION IS TOO SLOW.
1 -
There are a number of good ideas in this thread but the end result is the same: current base gen regression is severely outdated. Gens should lose a small % the moment they are kicked and base regression needs a buff. This gives killers more control over defending gens without actually making gen time longer so it's not "boring" for survivors. I highly doubt the devs do this but it is a great idea none the less.
1
