Ascensions Blights j-flick video
Ascension has released a video arguing for keeping the j-flick on Blight as a feature as it is healthy for the game. I agree it should be left as it is in game and not deleted. Discuss your opinions on his arguments wether you agree or disagree. BHVR please keep the J flick in the game.
Edit: If you are not even going to listen to the arguments, do not post please. Golden rule, do to others as you want others to do to you.
Comments
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My opinion on it is that it needs to go. If Blight was some B tier/C tier killer who was weak, maybe he was 110, then sure, I'd welcome this change. The problem is, even without it's debatable that he's in the top 3 killers and he's without a doubt in the top 5 killers.
The J flick removes a lot of counter play to an already strong killer. It's like if Billy could suddenly do a 180 turn mid way through his chainsaw dash. Would that be fine? Or would it be removing a lot of counter play to an already balanced killer who's A tier?
Its similar to the PH bug with Punishment of the Damned that allowed you to delay the sound of the sword digging into the ground giving the survivors, as far as I'm aware, a whopping 0.2 seconds to react. This was rightfully removed as Ph is already a good killer and this just reduced his counterplay.
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I'm not really inclined to give him free views, as his content often shows other bug exploits, like the locker check one and all his claim to Blight fame is based off jflicking.
In absence of a tl;dw then I'll go off the brief summary in the op.
The jflick is not healthy for the game. It removes counterplay in most situations on a killer who's already strong in the absence of this confirmed exploit.
I saw a twitch clip on this forum where he argued against Scott's video trying to present a sort of 'counterplay' to the jflick, where you fake turning around the corner and then keep going. Just in case the same argument is referenced in this video, that supposed counterplay is extremely flawed.
It doesn't work with line of sight if the Blight has eyes.
It's extremely likely to fail anyway because Blight has an almost 180° hitbox for obscure reasons. So, he can connect during the flick anyway.
All the Blight has to do is literally be patient and do an extra rush instead of jflicking immediately. The survivor gets hit if they anticipate the jflick on the first rush, or they get hit by jflick on the subsequent rush.
Even if the Blight is impatient and fails, his power literally counters holding W. So, the survivor is doomed anyway.
You want to help Blight? Then fix his collision on slams. That's what he needs.
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Regarding the Billy argument, its not comparable since his power is an instant down, Blights power ends at the swing while Billy could keep charging, only removes a healthstate and Billy is no way near A tier anymore. We could argue about that in another topic but this is about Blight.
If you watched the video you would know Blight is not reliant on it, it is always better to out position with bump logic. Removing the j-flick removes counterplay since no one will go for flicks anymore. You argue j flick removes alot of counter play to an already strong killer. Could you further explain and give an example of this?
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I will admit, the video is really well-made, but I disagree.
If the devs were okay with the J-flick, then I would agree. But all of his points are destroyed by the fact that BHVR does not condone the J-flick. He argued that combos were an exploit found by the devs of Street Fighter 2. The difference is, the devs of that game discovered the exploit, and chose to keep it in on their own will, however BHVR was unaware of this exploit during development of the Blight. BHVR does not want their fog whisperers to use this exploit, and told their players to not rely on the J-flick. Case closed.
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Just like above I'm not inclined to give free views so here's my brief answer to it:
No. It's an exploit. No matter which way you frame it, no matter what you call it, no matter what """counterplay""" you have, it's an exploit. People are asking for the Breakdown Exploit to be fixed and be bannable, because it's an unfair exploit. J-flicking is the same.
It doesn't make you better at Blight it doesn't make you cool. It means you're willingly abusing an exploit that you know you can't get banned for.
It needs to go. As does every other exploit in the game.
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Um not really sure what you mean, he didn't claim to fame by jflicking. He has played without using it and getting good results.
"It doesn't work with line of sight if the Blight has eyes." You could say this for any killer to be honest.
If you aren't even going to listen to the arguments I see no point further engaging in discussion with you.
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Fair points. If the developers doesn't want it in the game then I hope this would have changed their minds but it is up to them what happens in the future. I'm just saying, unintentional gameplay has and can be turned into features.
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I don't watch YouTube videos who's title starts with "The truth about"
Also the jflick needs to go for the reasons mentioned above by others. If one says it has counterplay, they're either ignorant about it or simply in bad faith
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this thread really shows what the DBD community looks like at its peak. Ignorance everywhere
watch the video people, he actually made some very solid points.
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I don't think it's balanced to remove the only direct counterplay from a strong, balanced killer whilst simultaneously making him a fair bit easier to play.
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It’s counteracting one of blights intended weaknesses therefore it shouldn’t be in the game
It doesn’t even increase his skill cap since instead of learning how to play harder loops you just j flick
Edit: Watched the video and while I appreciate the effort put in I still disagree
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Thank you, atleast someone watched the video. What are your thoughts about it after listening to it?
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I agree, unintentional gameplay can definitely be good at times and can evolve into being accepted by the devs and the community, but in this case the devs aren't fond of it.
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It has literally been told by the devs "This isn't reportable but this isn't okay". This is literally an exploit. There's no ignorance, it's common sense to remove a damn exploit that they don't want in the game.
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Sorry, Im not sure what you mean?
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Everything he said is pretty much true.
I have dominated and been dominated by fellow jflick players. In chases you need to keep a mind on your position and Blight position, and as you see in this video the best way to avoid these flicks are being unpredictable and make wide turns, jflick also won't work that much on survivors who adapt (oh scary thing btw this community for some reason hates to do this) won't have an issue with it.
360 was never intended but they kept it, and it became part of the game identity
Windowtech was never intended but they kept it, and it became part of the game identity
Moonwalking
KEK tech
CJ tech
and so on.
Just because it's not intended doesn't mean we can't embrace it.
There are so many games out there similar to DBD when it comes down to this and both the devs and the players accepted it and embraced it so why can't we do the same with Jflick?
If one would say 360 and pallet looping is an exploit then the whole community would laugh at you.
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As a Blight main who doesn't use the exploit, I can get anyone anywhere except at short, round loops. Not only does the exploit allow you to hit someone anywhere if they fail a Spirit-style guess, it makes it so that you don't have to learn to play tiles properly. Scott Jund had a good example with LT walls - normally a Blight would have to take 3 different angles to hit someone going for a window. It takes a lot of practice. A J-flicker just has to smack off the corner and jerk their mouse a bit.
Also, it negates two otherwise very strong add-ons.
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Blight its not strong at all lol he may be C tier, this flick is the only thing that make him decent and i think it should be officially supported since it also takes skill to do it.
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As a non J-flicking Blight main, I feel insulted. In the right hands, he's powerful. Hell, Ascension actually said that non J-flick Blight has less counterplay than J-flicking Blight so that's ironic, and he also said that although he wants the J-flick to stay, he thought Blight would still be good without it.
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You didn't post this in the media lounge. Nobody is therefore expected to watch the video to participate in the discussion. If you want to provide a summary of the video yourself for discussion, you're encouraged to do so. But literally nobody is expected to give a content creator free exposure outside of the appropriate section.
If you don't want to engage with me in a discussion after I provided an articulated argument of why jflicking isn't healthy, thus answering the subject of your thread, it's totally your free and respectable choice.
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I mean, they are right if they include Spirit-style guesses in their definition of "counterplay". Blight is... kinda nuts. Which is why I'm glad that junk tiles and such exist.
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I am a defender of Blight's normal flicks. I used to not like J flicks, but after seeing Otz's stream where he put a group of strong as ######### survivors against several killers and seeing the examples of j-flicks in this video I think this is the sort of happy accident that should be turned into a feature.
Good survivors can counter it, predictable survivors get nuked by it, it is a risky maneuver from the Blight player for the reward of saving time and rush tokens.
I play with high sensitivity and I honestly don't know what I'd do without my 90 degree flicks. I think i've only ever flicked more than 90 degrees like...at most 10 times and I've played Blight non stop since he was released. It's literally just an extra tool in his kit, useful in very particular situations.
Unfortunately though, the counterplay to a competent J flicking Blight, requires survivors to mind their positioning and to make a read based on their opponent's abilities and playstyle. It seems a great number of survivors absolutely despise anything that requires that from them. They want every killer in the game to have their actions telegraphed 50 seconds before they happen so their brain wakes up from holding M1 so much and can process what is happening. Which means survivors that are actually skilled and can make these kinds of reads and plays just stomp on killers who get gutted to appease survivors that can't.
Unfortunately this tool on Blight's kit is probably going to go.
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Survivors despise things that need them to adapt? No.
Survivors despise people who voluntarily and knowingly abuse an exploit? Yes.
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They have a cap on his turn rate which is updated every frame. It’s intended to not allow the blight to make those hits. Video was meh, it just reinforced my opinion that j flick needs to go.
Edit: I looked through a few of his other videos and I may take him seriously when he isn’t using alchemists ring since that is cringe af. Also most of his points about blight being fun and interactive with the flick were just wrong. I don’t have fun when I position myself in a spot where blight can’t get me normally but suddenly he does a complete 180 to hit me. That isn’t interactive for the survivor and it’s a lie to say it is.
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Well in my experience i can count the times i died againts a blight with one hand.. maybe i didn't have the pleasure to face a good blight but here in my region they all get gen rushed before they can do something. Not many people pick blight either, only after this j flick becoming popular i have seen a few more.
I faced some using the flick in rank 1 and i still could predict them very well most of the times. The less skilled survivors had problems though 😅. In general they do slightly better but i don't find it broken like some people paint it. Thats why im not againts it.
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my opinion is that it shouldn't be in the game and while his video having good quality, i don't agree with some of the points
- saying that it can be predicted is wrong and can cause blight to be unpredictable. has a survivor won't have any indication on if he going to do a j-flick or not, making him unfun and uncountable and in some situation it can be countable but that some and not most. also survivors that hasn't seen a j-flick won't know what to do even if they have good experience and good skill.
- being unpredictable to a blight as to a nurse isn't a good comparison as blight doesn't need to rely on is power as much as nurse (as he a 115% killer while nurse movement speed is lower then a survivor) and doesn't get punish as nurse for making mistake. i also agree that there should be mouse and keyboard on console to even the playing field but that isn't a valid argument for the j-flick.
- 360 and the window tech has skill behind them (360 has some but it also has to do with the killers as well). 360 require you to avoid a hit by the killer by moving around him. it also hard to do as killers know about this and can easily counter it. for the window tech, you need to know when the killer doesn't have a hit box to go through him but it require precision to be able to pull it off (i've done it twice)
- the street fighter exploit doesn't validate his argument as that exploit was on both sides and require skill and it revolutionized the whole genre for years to come. i don't think the j-flick is on par since it doesn't change the game for the better and it isn't skillful to use.
there is my thought on the video and j-flick.
if j-flick were be able to stay then the dev should tweak to give it a clear indication for a split second for the survivors to react so it doesn't become unpredictable
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Like this like everything you said here is true.
Hey if were removing exploits, lets also remove 360s and the CJ tech. Not because they're bad for the game, but for them being called an "exploit". EDIT: They aren't an exploit, just showing that there's a big gray area for the term exploit.
Why remove an "exploit" if it does nothing but benefit the game as even he stated.
Post edited by Leachy_Jr on0 -
How are they exploits, though?
No limit that has been placed on the survivors are being broken when they 360, j-tech is intentionally bypassing a given limit, 360ing is not, and CJ Tech is the way the game works, can't kick a pallet a survivor on, again no limit is being broken, it's kind of embarrassing how killers are calling these exploits when they don't exploit anything.
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I don't think they were speaking in riddles or rhymes, nor was it some sort of cryptic phrasing, you're being willfully ignorant of the situation. I for one did watch the video, I'm also a killer main and I do use Blight. The devs gave this killer an outstanding amount of speed, to counter this so he wasn't as oppressive the devs added hurdles in controlling him. Jflicking basically just steps over those implemented hurdles and says, "naw I'm not going to play the character as intended." Not only that but console players don't have access to this ability in turn making it a tool-assisted exploit. I would say it's cheating. At the end of the day, a cheats a cheat.
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True true
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I did not say "adapt". I specifically said survivors seem to hate things that: "requires survivors to mind their positioning and to make a read based on their opponent's abilities and playstyle".
"Adapt" is too broad a term. The specific actions I mentioned are a subset of the umbrella of "adapting", but they're specific for a reason. You could argue that looking at a red stain and turning around is "adapting" but it is not even close to being the thing I was referring to.
Look at any complaint about Deathslinger having "no counterplay" and you'll see exactly this: Survivors complaining about his stealth can't mind their positioning and be aware of their surroundings if their lives depended on it. Survivors complaining about his quickscopes cannot mind their positioning and make reads on their opponent based on how the killer is played and how the specific player in the match is playing.
J-Flicks are similar in that survivors need to make a read to inform their decisions based on what Blight as a killer is capable of doing, their current positioning and what the specific Blight player has done during the match.
What do you see? Survivors claiming "no counterplay"
The "exploit" argument is valid. The thing is, I am not arguing that it's not an exploit. I'm arguing that, even though it is an exploit, the specifics of the exploit are reasonable enough that it can (and in my opinion should), be embraced as just another tool in Blight's kit.
The devs have already stated that it is unintentional. Now we're just arguing over whether or not we agree with them removing it and why.
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Well that's why I put them in heavy quotations. I'm perfectly fine with 360s and CJ techs. I'm not fine with people wanting something removed FOR THE SOLE REASON for being called an "exploit" as the definition of an exploit is a huge grey area.
More importantly, who tf cares if it's an exploit when it does nothing but add more fun to playing against blight.
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Proving a point by showcasing videos while using an exploit and one of the most broken addons in the game (alchemist ring: wanna talk about competitive? well alchemist's ring is forbidden on every dbd tournment. Even real competitive blights refuse to use that addon so gj) is a really bold move.
At this point this video just feels like someone being scared of getting robbed of his toy he was never meant to have.
Jflick is disgusting, even more blights jflicking on pub games (i would get using jflick on tournments because you know).
I adapted to jflick but i have 5k hrs on this game, i thought my friend to flick in 20mins and the experience its required to counter jflick is well beyond the ease required to jflick.
As someone said if blight was a weak killer i wouldn't mind jflick to stay in the game, but since blight is far from being weak jflick has to go.
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I don't get why people still talk about this topic.
The devs already made their stance on this thing clear.
It will be removed from the game at some point in the future.
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I mean not really?
they aren't even close to exploits, the locomotion of the characters has always allowed 360ing and the devs have never even come close to implying it's not intended, nor have they put anything in place to prevent them.
J-Flick exploded and within 2 days you had devs uhming and ahing at in on their own streams saying there are intentional limits put in place and they're being bypassed.
I can't believe this even needs explaining.
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Real point is who really cares it has the name "exploit" on it.
I think a much better example is tractor tech, even the devs said that it wasn't intended but they kept it in anyway because it was cool. Due to it being a quote "exploit", they kept it in because it was a cool mechanic.
Same should be done to j flick, it does literally nothing but make blight more fun.
EDIT: Dont get me wrong there's some exploits that do badly effect the game, like m1 after holding blink bug and stretched res, but j flick isn't one of them.
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What did this add to the conversation besides pointless and baseless bragging?
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Tractor tech is completely different, every killer could use and it didn't make an already strong killer even stronger, it was a fun way to play a tile and they made it more accessible like... lol
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If it doesn't do anything then why use it?
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if they removed the oni's 180 flicks then blight's should go too
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That's because both sides can use the harvester tech even on the ptb, if survivors would be allowed to jflick aswell sure, blight can keep his exploit.
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Oni can still 180°
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CJ, window, dumb techs etc are easy to avoid and basically a free hit if the killer knows about them.
360s I kind of agree with you only because they work better against console killers. Console optimisation + m&k support would be better than nerfing those but bhvr isn't realistically going to do any of that.
That's another reason I dislike the J-flick, it's a pc only thing. Although that's just blight in general ig.
Btw you were on my team about a month back on a corn map against a pyramid head - the rest of us escaped and the killer was nice enough to compliment us all so I thought I'd pass that on as you wouldn't've seen it
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Well now you're getting to my point.
By definition, tractor tech was an exploit, it was an unintended mechanic.
You just don't think of it as bad because it's good for the game and adds a new dynamic to the tractor tile.
Think of the J flick in the same way, it has counterplay and makes playing as and against blight more fun.
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Fun.
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I guess I just don't like playing against Spirit. And nor do most people. Which is why we dislike the exploit that turns Blight into her more aggressive knock-off.
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Well yea, same with the J flick, it has clear counterplay. It does suck that it is PC only, but I wouldn't put that as a reason to remove it.
Also I can't really remember that match but thank you for passing the message. :D
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Not giving people clicks who want to promote exploits, but two things:
McLean said that you should not get used to the Flicks, aka it will be patched at some point.
And second, it is only possible to do on PC. Things which are only possible on one platform but not the others should be called exploits by default.
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If the only way to have fun is through an exploit then maybe you should be playing something else
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Sorry but I really cannot see how blight is anywhere near a spirit in terms of counterplay.
Do you mean the J flick counterplay? That just comes down to a 50/50, similar to a TL wall or something like that. If you keep track of how many rushes he has it makes it even easier to predict based on the environment around you.
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