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LGBTQ survivor/killer when?
Comments
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I think people shouldn't be too focused on the lore of these characters since these stories only describe their previous life, the Entity's realm however is an entirely different can of worms. Who knows how long they've been in there, people can change over time. That also goes for their sexuality and various other likes and dislikes.
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I am straight, unfortunately.
I'm also a feminine looking dude, so that narrows my options lmao
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Him being a homophobe that wasnt confirmed nor was it mentioned in his backstory/tome but he has a girlfriend
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None of that garbage is true....what the heck....the whole thing is listed in the game and we even had an entire expansion devoted to canon lore. The dude grew up in Manchester england with rich parents spending their credit card money, getting into fights, and his only social circles were his entourage of friends getting themselves into criminal trouble as well aka people looking to be paid back and him and his friends getting beat up over it.
I've heard people on this forum claim that he's russian....where the hell even.....
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[sigh]...
Memory 342 of Tome II
His ex has moved on and she doesn't want to see his face.
Source: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Tome_II_-_Reckoning#Memory_342
@Mooks did say it was just one sentence.
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I got bullied for 5 years in middle school/high school for being more feminine than other guys.
Actively excluded from most activities, yes. Publicly ridiculed and mocked by both staff and peers? Yep. Had my car vandalized with some slurs I can't say? Yep. Harassed both in-person and online? Yep.
I'd like to think that I can understand a little bit what LGBTQ groups have to put up with.
Many people do not have as extreme of an experience as I do, but they know what ostrazation feels like and can empathize.
EDIT: I have no idea where my original comment went, I can't find it :(
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You make fair points, but near the end you kind of use having a negative opinion on something as equal to actively persecuting something.
I'll give you a 100 percent true example of this. My fundamentalist Christian friend, who believes that all homosexuality is a sin and so forth, and voted against gay rights / gay marriage, has opinions that I don't share. He's a good guy - he's responsible, cares greatly for his family, counsels people in need, etc. But he has opinions that are against the gay community. People are three dimensional and I won't hate him for his feelings on the subject even if I think that they're extremely ignorant and judgmental.
Meanwhile, I also had a friend who I believe was trans. I met both of these people while on the THQ forums where I eventually worked for a while. They didn't talk to each other much, they were two names in a sea of names in a very large community. But I became close online friends with both - the Christian (so named not to shame him, but because I'm withholding real names) and I developed a love / hate heated rivalry with each other because we're extremely opinionated people who disagree on a great many things, but who respect the hell out of each other for other things as well. The trans girl (I never got confirmation but always believed) simply looked up to me a great deal because I was a leader of the forum for a while.
Long story short, she saw some of the comments that the Christian made and was irate about them. She found them hurtful, stopping just short of saying that they were insulting to herself and her lifestyle. I explained that while I understood her position, and agreed with it, it was not our place to tell him that his beliefs were wrong. We didn't live his life, we weren't raised in his household. We didn't read the books that he did, have the experiences that he had. Just because we ourselves agreed that homosexuality is not a sin doesn't mean that he doesn't have an equal right to believe that it is. It's not our place to tell him that he's wrong and has to change his worldview any more than it's his right to do the same to us.
She was flabbergasted. She accused me of taking his side. I argued that no, I'm actually not taking anyone's side. It's a matter of moral relativism. Some people think that masturbation is a sin. Some people thing that certain words are evil. Some people thing that certain books should be banned. Some people think that certain things shouldn't be shown in movies. Who gets to decide these things? What makes someone the arbiter of how everyone else should feel about something? I explained to her that just because I thought the guy was wrong and ignorant in the expression of his beliefs, there is no fact that I am "right" to feel the way I do about mine. Is racism bad? In that it leads to harm, yes. Same with all forms of bigotry. But who am I to tell someone that they can't be racist? What if they spent their whole lives learning firsthand from terrible people that racism is justified? Who am I to tell that person that his beliefs aren't valid, that he has to agree with what I think is right? If someone hates a culture or ethnicity or species or movie or cartoon or color or food or type of car, what gives me the authority to tell them that no, they are wrong, and they have to feel the same way that I do because it's right? Isn't it presumptuous of me to act as if I know what this person's life was like and undermine everything they know just because I think that I'm good and they're bad? If I were to do that, how would I be any different than if he said that I'm a bad person for supporting homosexuality and that I should hate gay people otherwise there's something wrong with me and I'm going to hell?
I feel that it's up to the individual - their upbringing, their home and family life, their formative years of development, their own personal feelings about who they are and what they think is right and wrong - to be shaped by their own lives. I feel that anyone should be allowed to hate who they want to hate, love who they want to love, be neutral to whatever they feel neutral about. It's when people start using their beliefs to hurt other people - to put them down, oppress them, interfere with their happiness, cause them harm, etc. - that the problems begin. In short, people have a profound number of differences, and part of successfully functioning in this world is to learn to accept those differences and not allow them to turn us into horrible people.
In other words, as I've often said - what two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors doesn't raise my taxes, doesn't make my wait at McDonalds longer, doesn't cause me any physical harm. So why should I be bothered by it? But I have to be fair: At the same time, if someone hates those same people but doesn't otherwise cause them, or me, or anyone else any actual problems in life other than upset feelings and disagreement, why should I let that bother me either? I can't determine what's right for everybody, these are choices that they have to make for themselves. And two people who feel strongly opposed on various issues probably have reasons that, to them, make just as much sense as the other person's reasons make to them, too.
The trans girl quit talking to me, which is a shame but it's her right. She decided that because I didn't fully oppose the Christian's right to have beliefs that differed from hers, and looked down upon her, then I must be as "bad" as he is. I simply tried to explain that I don't share his beliefs, I'm just not going to presume to tell him, or anyone else, that he has no right to have them.
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Still trying to figure out, how people draw the conclusion that he's
A. Homophobic
B. Straight (we only know of 1 ex that mother ######### could have a huge list from multiple sexes)
C. Russian
Or any other random made up ######### I see people on these forums throwing out randomly.
Its literally 1 line out of an entire chapter of a book, which should say enough.....it doesn't matter. His sexuality isn't what makes up his character, its not what defines you. He was rich....did a lot of hood #########, got into a lot of fights, and was pretty much abandoned by most of the people in his life including his so called "friends" <--- thats the lore....thats what matters. Not where he sticks his diddle or if he even has one, not his race, not his country of origin either. Its a horror game ffs not a dating simulator. If they wanted 1 dimensional characters they could have just skipped the lore entirely and given people a character creator with a bunch of random preset faces.
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I was terrified of the very real possibility of being assaulted and murdered simple for being trans, one that has only lessened but not gone away. My height and deep voice not only carries massive social stigma and work together with my skin colour to lock me out of nearly every job I could get, but also labels me as a target for the gangs I live beside because "no-one cares what happens to a tranny."
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For what little it is worth, I care what happens to you.
But I digress, my point wasn't to show how much my life sucked, because I will absolutely lose that debate to most people and I apologize if it came off that way. I merely wanted to illustrate the fact that I do understand, on some level, what that feels like.
And I think other people can, to a lesser extent, empathize with that as well.
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- Already said I had no idea where the homophobic bit came from.
- The fact that the devs said they had only added relationships to heterosexual characters.
- Again, no idea where that came from.
Its literally 1 line out of an entire chapter of a book, which should say enough.....it doesn't matter.
And nobody said otherwise.
It's OK to admit you were wrong about there being no mention of a girlfriend.
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Same here.
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That feels like a really big cop out if you ask me.
I'm not sure why but you saying that beings from CryptTV are fair representation, really offends me? They are monsters, not people. Or can we slap a label on anything now and call it representation? Not to mention these are skins and not a character of BHVRs own design.
I just believe that using a stereotypical flamboyant gay is not the way to go when introducing their first lgbt survivor/killer. Aswell as just against stereotypes of lgbt in general. Personally, if I'm honest, I'm against the flamboyant gay stereotype because thats the harassment I have faced as a member of LGBT even though I'm not as flamboyant as some others, Im often assumed such and harassed because of it.😕🙃
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And that's all lgbtq+ people want too. A single, throwaway, one line in the lore to show "HEY THIS IS A GAY RELATIONSHIP" or "HEY THIS CHARACTER IS TRANS" without making their entire lore about being gay/trans. It's there if you look for it but not if you don't.
That's what we want, equal treatment.
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Thanks. And for what it's worth, I'm not saying people don't have to deal with awful things. I get targeted by a lot of racism and I'm white. Automatically, that means no-one believes me.I'm a minority of a majority. But that doesn't mean I understand what the Asian and Polynesian people in my country deal with. We go through different things. The best I can do is sympathise, but I genuinely cannot empathise.
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I think what Mooks is getting at is, because of the CryptTV characters, nobody could now call them a token character even if they were stereotypical. Token characters exist to check boxes and usually there's only one- we're getting 3 in one swoop today.
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This. No. Tokenism. No Stereotypes. This is the perfect way to introduce the LGBT character.
Leave the stereotypes for the skins if we must have them
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I don’t know anything about CryptTV soninjust assumed they were humans that turned into monsters? as far as I know, both killers and survivors are characters in Dead by Daylight and it wouldn’t be fair to only have LGBTQ+ representation on the ‚good‘ side.
and I fully agree the first and therefor probably most discussed added original LGBTQ+ char shouldn’t be the flamboyant stereotypical gay. And the devs already stated they know it’s a sensitive topic and they want to make it right.
but.. down the line I think exclusion of any stereotypical trait from all LGBTQ+ chars is not the best way to go - when you already have multiple of non-stereotypical chars.
it’s not wrong or something to be ashamed of to have some stereotypical traits after all. This shouldn’t be how all LGBT chars should be represented, far from it. But it’s not something that needs to be completely censored from any media. It’s still completely natural and normal if someone happens to be gay and flamboyant.
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Oh, I agree with you. No tokenism/stereotypes. I'm nowhere near a stereotypical gay with the exception of this one hand movement I do when I sit while interested in something. I'd hate for the only representation to be like, the true stereotype pink hair handbag makeup "YASS ######### GO 💅💅💅💅💅". Are there people like that? Yes. Do I want my only representation to be that? No.
What I was trying to get at is if they were to make a stereotypical character, at least they wouldn't be the token one, which I think is what Mooks was trying to get at (but I don't speak for them to correct me if I'm wrong).
And seeing how they've done things with het relationships except Frank/Julie, I have faith in them not to do that.
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Maybe I just dont understand where their identities even fit in with their lore. Are they not just monsters and or beings that dont even need identities? Feels like a big cop out to me to say something like that. Do people honestly find representation from the beings in CryptTV?
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No* (thanks autocorrect) correction needed at all. That’s exactly what I was trying to say.
Words can be difficult
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Empathy is really just being able "to understand and share the feelings of another."
One needn't have gone through the same things to be able to understand the feelings of another person, it does help when they tell you though. If someone says they are angry about their experience with everyday racism, you can experience empathy from that because you understand the emotion they feel, not necessarily the experience.
I've always found it somewhat easy to put myself into other people's shoes and see things from an alternative perspective, it's part of the reason I enjoy debate so much.
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God I know I hate words. They never say what you want to mean
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I still think the devs should just retcon their terrible writing and not mention any of that stuff at all, that way you can imagine them to be anything you want them to be. But if people keep begging inept writing to throw you a bone for representation you're gonna get a token....
And I've seen it before.....and it was laughable. IE long long time ago in League of Legends. We had the discussion....wait...Runaterra doesn't have anybody that looks "Black" people got on forums, begging, waving their pre-social justice pitchforks at Riot. Meanwhile normal people are like "Nah....this ain't it chief....this isn't gonna end how you think it is, why are you ignoring Ryze just because he's purple? Don't force it!"
THEN BLAM! We get Lucian.....
He's black....he's got cornrows....a zig zag fade.....and the original concept had him holding his guns sideways....The threads and posts about it were off the ######### wall. "Yo ######### why's he slinging the 9 as his main weapon?" "yo ######### cornrows and a zig zag fade?" "Yo #########, do you think all black people hold guns sideways like this is the hood?" It was bonkers.
I'm just giving a heads up warning now, more pressure you put on it...higher chance its gonna come out....and you're not gonna be happy with the token. I'm tellin ya, I've seen it before, I'm probably gonna see it again. It always ends the same. Only difference is BHVR has the leeway to not have to deal with skin color but instead sex.....which if they stayed true to their original design would be anything the audience wanted it to be.....which is the best place to be. And hopefully they don't have the ineptitude to give us "the exaggerated swagger of a young black teen".....
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This will never be easy for BHVR to do. And I think its a discussion/topic that alot of us have at heart. I understand what you are both conveying to me but I cant help but feel as if it's unfair to equate CryptTV monsters with people. Feels like a very weird area to be treading.
I know that CTV have given their monsters identities, but, it's not as if they thats a reasonable form of representation? They are monsters. The stereotype character would stick out as a token character? I think it becomes whether you would say monsters that have been labled LGBTQ+ are fair representation to the community?
Now that I think about it though, trickster is about as flamboyant as it could get in DBD at the moment and I love him.
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I still think the devs should just retcon their terrible writing and not mention any of that stuff at all, that way you can imagine them to be anything you want them to be.
Nuke the lore because it's better than having LGBT characters? Really?
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This. I dont remember CryptTV mentioning monsters' gender/sexuality before this DBD collab. Kinda looks like what JK Rowling did, years after the books and movies, she started saying x and y were lgbt and whatever else just because she wanted to be woke.
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I don’t think the CryptTV chars should be the only representation, I just think it’s noteworthy that they (or as I assume the people they were before they got to be monsters) were LGBTQ+.
i think the best kind of representation is diverse representation, so have killers, monsters, non-stereotypical, stereotypical representation. All of it. Don’t exclude any topic just for exclusions sake. And don’t use LGBTQ+ as advertisement or political agenda. Just let it be a ‚trait’ that any one can have
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They've said Look-See is pan for a while, characters in Sunny Family Cult are lgbtq+, and The Birch is still made by a trans woman no matter what the Birch themselves is. Moedeo I don't know much about though I will admit.
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This.
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Do the characters have any lore? As in, outside of the videos that people can read?
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Through stalking the Twitter you can find some out, there's introduction videos that explains thingd too on their website, SFC literally shows some as lgbtq+, and the creators will still be trans/queer no matter what
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Is the series any good?
I've not really heard of it before and it looks a little cheesy to me, but I admittedly haven't watched it.
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Yeah SFC is pretty good. Look-See is amazing. Birch S2 I can't talk about because Facebook hates me but S1 was pretty good. Mordeo I haven't seen
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Just did a fast google search and the only thing that came up for me was the most recent tweet they made when someone asked about it related to DBD, everything else was random tumblr posts.
I'd like to see those intro videos and SFC
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This is why I think discussions like this lead to so many problems.
The user never said "Nuke the lore, it's better than having LGBT characters". That's a strawman. What he or she said was "when people demanded certain identities in another game the developers went overboard in trying to represent said identity correctly and it caused even more problems".
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Oh boy this could go raw really fast
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SFC:
A bunch of other monsters:
YouTube has apparently thanosed the playlist I had for the intro videos because the link no longer works but you could maybe (?) find it in the videos too? I can't say I remember them all
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It already has we're 9 pages in
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The person Orion quoted literally said they would rather the already established lore being retconned to not include any heterosexuality instead of LGBTQ+ inclusion..
no strawman.
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Not as much as the old thread that never dies that died, I miss that thread
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Ah the 15 page one during the ThirdGreatWar™.
I can't remember the First or Second very well so idk if it went higher
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It is, high recommend.
I agree with the diverse representation, but I think I still think it's unrealistic to consider monsters and entities as representation that's all. But if you can feel represented by demons and monsters more power to you.
I did just have a look into the monsters we are getting though.
The Birch storyline is written by an LGBT person but the actual person that becomes The Birch has no confirmed identity although, they were a female that had a boyfriend prior to transformation.
The Mordeo are a species similar to the wendigo so there isn't really a set identity as they are a species of creatures. But there are three people in the series that transformed into a Mordeo, two girls and a male.
The male has no backstory, one girl is a teen with no confirmation on lgbt they are a teen as well. The second girl was a bride to be and it doesn't state if it was hetero or homosexual wedding.
And The LookSee is a demon whom comes to those that have difficulty overcoming grief. I'm not sure where it being Pan comes into anything really. It doesn't seem like a major plot point at all?
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Context is the key here. He's saying that not applying sexual preferences to the characters would make things less complicated because then each one could be whatever anyone wanted them to be. I won't speak for him but I doubt he literally meant "gay lore is inherently bad and I would rather have no lore at all than be forced to suffer it".
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It was really high, i’ll need to check
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We can break the record if we try hard enough UwU
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143 pages
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Yes, they're saying that, but they're saying that in opposition to users asking for LGBT representation. That's the context of this thread, after all.
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I was called a homophobe for talking about identity politics an hour or so back, you're probably fine now.
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That depends on your settings. I have it set to 30 replies per page, for example, so this thread is on page 9 for me.
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