Perk to counter face camping?
Not sure how many games I have played where the killer tunnels 1 person and then refuses to leave and go hunt anyone else. Whats even more frustrating is that even with kindred on players in the game don't seem to understand that if the killer is going to camp you, just complete your gens easy and escape with 3/4.
Is there some way to create a perk that while on the hook, if the killer is within 15 or 20 meters, gen progression for all survivors is increased by a certain percentage?
Just wondering.
Thanks.
Comments
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That is already happening if you play at the higher ranks. You can't even stay at hook or else you'll get gen rushed and lose.
I think you just play with bad killers. Just rank up by doing gens. And you wont face the campers soon.
Also you haven't considered what if there are teammates nearby the hook and the killer is chasing them. That means the killer is punished for having survivors hover the hook.
I believe they already tried to implement this in the base game. And what came out was toxic survivor play.
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Perks that counter face camping:
Deliverance
Vigos Jar of salty lips (Offering)
Slippery Meat
DS (After you get unhooked)
Unbreakable (Can help if being slugged after being unhooked)
And probably more
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Ah yes, the usual 'Punish the Killer or reward the Survivors because we hate this tactic that only works if we, the Survivors, let it work. And we are aware the Devs have said it's valid, but we disagree because getting gud is hard' thread.
This forum has a daily quota to meet!
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There are already several Perks that assist with camping Killers, as well as some Add-on(s). Borrowed Time means they can run in even with the Killer close and unhook you and if you are hit again, you have Endurance. The unhooker (if damaged) can use the Styptic Agent to get the same Endurance. *I've always felt they should allow that agent used even when healthy to gain the Endurance and liquidate the Med-Kit for greater effect. There is the Perk: Camaraderie which allows a Survivor to get near you and extend the amount of time you can be on the hook. This in turn grants those others working Generators even MORE time to take advantage of the camping.
There doesn't need to be anything that further accelerates Generators. A Camper is giving up Generator Pressure already.
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Maybe not a perk but a in game mechanic were "The Entity" teleports the camper to a different location
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This already happens with Cage of Atonement.
"A Cage of Atonement will generally spawn far away from The Executioner. Should The Executioner walk into close proximity of the Cage of Atonement and remains there for a short amount of time, it and the trapped Survivor will relocate to a different location on the Map.
This behaviour was chosen to prevent The Executioner from excessively camping trapped Survivors, due to the already inherent advantage of Cages of Atonement not triggering Hook-interaction Perks that could counter-act that."
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Camraderie
No, really - it extends your stage two timer which means the killer's gonna have to waste even more time camping you to death if they're really committing to it
Only problem is it requires teammates to get close for it to trigger
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No. I would uninstall and ask for a refund if I got teleported away from the hook while a Survivor hid nearby for the free unhook this gave.
Or if the hook was teleported away & again; gave Survivors a free unhook.
All these 'anti-camping' ideas/perks/threads boil down to the same thing; Survivors believing the Killer should HAVE to let them get the unhook. That the game should force the Killer into avoiding killing until some arbitrary 'fun' quota is met.
The problem is, they ignore something; that the Killer is a player. That asking the game to prevent him from achieving his goal is somehow more 'fun'...for Survivors only. They seem to forget that the Killer's goal is to kill you.
His goal is not to give you candy, and ask if you did enough gens to 3 pip, and if so; can he please maybe hook you for some BP?
It's a PvP game. If people can't accept that the HUMAN PLAYER behind the Killer will do his STATED GOAL OF KILLING YOU just as strong as you, a human player trying your best to escape, then maybe PvP games aren't for those people.
After all, I never see Killers go 'Gen speeds are too strong! Maybe Survivors should be teleported across the map if they do gens too fast!' or 'Maybe the gens should teleport around, to keep Survivors from gen-rushing!'
But apparently Killer players trying to win is forbidden, and every mechanic should be put in place to stop their evil attempts at winning, because Survivors find it 'unfun' to lose.
Oh wait; they find it 'unfun' to 'be camped'. But if 'fixing' that 'camping' makes it easier to win; that's just a bonus. Because who cares about Killer fun, amIrite?
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Maybe it should be time based if a killer is next to a hooked survivor within 10 meters or (X distance) the killer gets teleported by The Entity
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No. This would just give Survivors a free unhook.
There are perfectly good reasons for a Killer to camp; Survivors just need to accept it instead of demanding the game punish the Killers for not letting them win.
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How many of the player base face camp 10% maybe less this game doesn't need them.
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The problem is you are classifying people as "people who camp" and banning them, or implementing stuff that will make them quit. I'm welling to bet MOST of the "people who camp" don't just camp every game for their entire career. The game does a pretty bad job of incentivizing/teaching newer players not to camp.
Like seriously, if you've never played the game before, don't have a bunch of awesome perks, and you hook someone, you go "now what?". You only know where one survivor is, and you know a point(the hooked survivor) that is incredibly enticing to other people, as a new player trying to figure out what do, or even a semi experienced player who is having a rough match, why WOULDN'T you camp. and why shouldn't you be able too?
I still think strongly that if the solution were focused on making sure killers knew that A. camping was a losing strategy against competent survivors and B. made sure that killers had the tools they need to find objectives away from the hook and incentives to get away from the hook that are obvious(a basically unnoticeable point loss for staying near a hook isn't enough) most camping problems would go away..
Driving away players who camp is going to remove a lot of potential non camping killers too, and based on queue times killer population is already low enough.
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Every time I read a post about camping or getting tunneled someone will post a solution then someone else will post no your solution is flawed because this, that, and etcetera. This is BHVR game only they can change it why is face camping allowed or an option I will never know.
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> I still think strongly that if the solution were focused on making sure killers knew that A. camping was a losing strategy against competent survivors
The issue is, camping isn't a losing strategy against anything but a competent 4-man swiffer on comms.
Because in solo play, without kindred, what happens is that someone gets hooked, and someone attempts an unhook. The time that person loses on checking the hook and finding it camped (not accounting for stealth killers here, either) is already enough to give the killer time for another down after the first target dies.
That's why there's the oft repeated suggestion of making hookstates slow down if the killer is near, since that helps make camping as ineffective as it's claimed to be.
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Because why let the Killer capitalize on player mistakes? Nope! Better punish the Killer for Survivors screwing up!
That's basically what Survivors want; free unhooks & Killers punished.
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That's a fair point, I would lean more towards an additional axiom of my argument of, help survivors figure out that the hook is being camped. The counter strategy that makes hook camping bad already exists, the problem is knowing that that IS the strategy, and knowing that you are in the face camping scenario. I could see something like the hooked persons aura being a different color if the killer is close enough to the hooked character. That might be a little strong to have as a default mechanic, but definitely feels a little too weak for a perk by itself. maybe roll it into another perk? it's hard for me to conceptualize how good perks are like that for survivors, because technically they get 16 perks as a team, but solo queues don't get much time to coordinate, and no way to communicate in game.
I also think secondly to make this whole thing feel better you gotta do something for the hooked person, because even if the survivor team does their proper counter the person who got hooked still gets a terrible match. I think generally, survivor pipping and blood points hsouldn't be calculated until the match ends, and they should all get a bonus based on number of survivors. Maybe that way at least we could be feeding the player who got hook camped blood points based on gens done while hooked, and when they die let them pip and get some more blood points when the match ends if their team rocked while they got camped.
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How is it a mistake to scout for an unhook? Are survivors supposed to unconditionally refuse to go for an unhook just in case it's a camper?
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The most direct face camping counter is currently camaraderie which will pause your hook timer for 34 seconds.
Although I wish instead of triggering when a survivor came near the hook it would instead trigger if you are about to die on the hook as currently triggering it requires good communication with your team which is bad for solo q, where the perk would probably be more valuable if it actually worked well.
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But the entity has the killer working for it and wants the sacrifice.
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You're acting like camping is some OP tactic that Survivors have no control over. And that's not true.
If the Killer is camping; do gens.
Most players, when they see gens pop, will realize 'Oh crap! I'm not stopping the other 3 people from doing their objective!'
But instead, Survivors swarm a hook, get hit, then come onto the forums and cry that camping is so unfair and needs punishments. Because they are incapable of realizing that they are the ones rewarding a camping play style.
Instead, they seem to think that they deserved that unhook, and the Killer was being 'unfair' or 'unfun' for not walking away like they demand. So the game should push the Killer away, or teleport him away, or teleport the hook, or drain his BP, or give Survivors infinite hook meter.
All of it boils down to one thing; 'Please force the Killer to move away from the hook, so I can unhook when I want. I don't care that this slows down his ability to win. All I want is my easy unhooks. I deserve those unhooks, so force the Killer to make it happen.'
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Okay, listen, let me sketch the situation for you.
You're on a gen. Someone is hooked, about 3/4 of the map away from you. You stay on the gen, because you assume someone else will go for the unhook. Time passes, and the unhook doesn't come (You don't know why, they could be in a chase), so you decide to take point and head out to try and save the hooked person from being down a hookstate. You travel allllll the way down to the hook and then notice that the killer is camping. That's a ton of time you lost checking up on a hook that you can't reasonably make.
Repeat that two more times for the other two survivors that also had to find out that the killer was camping, and there's one or two gens left to do by the time the camp victim is dead. At that point, if the killer downs someone, it's likely a 2K. If they have NOED, it could get even worse, because you can't hunt for totems against a camper either, you need to genrush.
Hookstates aren't long enough for genrushing to be a solid counter to camping, unless the hooked target has kindred, everyone else has kindred, or it's a 4 man swiffer on comms.
'Just bring kindred!'
Just bring PH against old DS abuse.
Sometimes a problem is just a problem and needs to be fixed.
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Your 'sketch' is literally how the Killer takes pressure off of gens. Is it his fault you left gens to check on the hooked Survivor?
Why should he be punished? The fact that you want the Killer punished or moved because you think you deserve the unhook because you 'wasted time walking across the map' shows just how much you want free unhooks and easy escapes.
And hookstates ARE long enough:
It takes 120 seconds to die from first hook.
It takes 80 seconds to repair a generator alone.
That leaves you 40 seconds free after soloing a gen.
And that's not counting: Gens already being worked on BEFORE the hook (IE: The 60-80 seconds chase, hit, chase, hit, carry, hook).
So 3 people working 3 solo gens can pop 3 of 5 gens in one hook camp.
But nope! That's not good enough for lazy Survivors! They want unhooks! They DEMAND unhooks! They walked 'all the way across the map' and the Killer has the GALL to be camping! He should lose BP! He should be teleported away! The hook should walk itself to the nearest Survivor! Because they walked SO FAR!
I mean, the Killer is DOING HIS DAMNED OBJECTIVE but who cares, right? He's not doing it 'properly', according to Survivors! He should be going for ALL TWELVE HOOKS!
Wait; let's do the math on that:
Assuming every chase is around 1 minute long, counting time to find, chase, pick up & hook survivors, that's 12 minutes needed, on average.
Assuming every Survivor solos a gen at different times; the slowest possible result. 80 seconds times 5 is 400 seconds. Which is 6.66 minutes. We'll say 7 minutes.
Oh, look at that. If Killer's do not camp, THEY NEED TWICE THE TIME THE SLOWEST SURVIVORS NEED TO CLEAR GENS.
And yet Survivors stomp onto these forums and DEMAND Killers give up every single unhook possible. Because a Killer applying pressure via camping (And Survivors playing badly enough to hide near a camping Killer INSTEAD OF DOING GENS) is 'unfun' and clearly the Killer's fault.
Instead of DOING GENERATORS, you think it's 'unfair' that you 'walked all the way across the map' and the mean old Killer was AT THE HOOK.
The entitlement of Survivors asking for 'counters' or 'punishments' is wearing thin. It's a valid tactic; one of the few Killers have that people keep falling for. Yet when Survivors fall for it, they blame Killers, and want to tide the Killers hands.
All because they believe they deserve every unhook and easy matches.
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So 3 people working 3 solo gens can pop 3 of 5 gens in one hook camp.
And that is the problem. It should be 5 out of 5 plus exit gates if you want to make the argument that camping isn't viable. If camping can relatively safely secure you a 2K, it's not non-viable.
But nope! That's not good enough for lazy Survivors! They want unhooks! They DEMAND unhooks! They walked 'all the way across the map' and the Killer has the GALL to be camping! He should lose BP! He should be teleported away! The hook should walk itself to the nearest Survivor! Because they walked SO FAR!
But nope! That's not good enough for lazy killers! They want dead survivors! They DEMAND dead survivors! They downed someone once and the survivors have the GALL to pull them off the hook! They should not be able to!
What you are arguing in favour of is incredibly stale, non-dynamic play, where the killer doesn't chase and the survivors don't do anything but hold M1 on gen. Camping matches aren't fun for anyone involved, yet you seem to have an aneurysm anytime someone mentions that it's not healthy for the game.
You're in tears over how bad killers have it, but the majority of killers have a 60%+ kill rate at red ranks, suggesting that it's not -nearly- as bad as people make it out to be, so this clinging to camping as 'one of the few things killers have' is pretty nonsensical.
And that's also ignoring the fact that it's hindering development that could solve both issues. As long as camping is a thing, gen speeds cannot be slowed down, because doing so would be a direct buff to camping, and you don't want the game to hit a critical mass of campers because then it'll just flat-out die.
But, you know, you could also keep bawling your eyes out over meanie-poo survivors. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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So you're saying, since you don't like camping, you should get a free escape? 5 out of 5 gens?
You don't seem to understand that Killers camp because it works. Survivors leave gens to crouch near the hook, then snivel and whine that it's 'so unfair that the killer never left!'
What you are arguing in favor of is taking away one of the only ways Killers can pressure gens. And you don't seem to get that it's the Survivor's fault that it works.
But you don't care that the Killer is a player, too, huh? He played in a way you find 'unfair' and thus he should be punished. Because your need to win should trump his. Because your 'fun' should matter more than his ability to win. So tie his hands. Punish him. Make it harder to win as a Killer by removing camping.
Because you don't like camping. So the Killer should be screwed because a Survivor is unhappy that camping made them lose again.
Instead of doing gens, you complain that you should get a free escape because the Killer played in a way you, personally, don't like.
Never mind that every single 'fix' to camping is something Survivors can exploit for easy unhooks. That's fine, because 'camping is unfun' so Killers should be punished for playing 'unfun'.
I mean, killing is their objective, but they should only kill in a way Survivors, the opponents, approve of. Right?
No camping, no slugging, no tunneling.
Get all 12 hooks! Spread out those hits! Make sure you pick people up, even if you know a Meg is 3 feet away with a flashlight! Anything else is 'unfun' for the Survivors!
And Survivors matter first! So hurry up and add abuseable punishments! Slap Killers in the face when they try to win! They don't get to pressure gens! Nothing is a Survivors fault!
Camping only works because Survivors leave gens? Killers fault!
Tunneling makes sense because going after wounded prey is faster? No! It's 'unfun'!
Slugging pressures Survivors to save their friends, but punishes Killers because there's no progression of hook states? Bah! Survivors should automatically get up, to counter it!
If you can't handle that the other side tries their hardest to win by any legitimate tactics necessary, then that's a YOU problem, not a game problem.
That would be like whining that you die first in CS:GO and the programmers should change the game so you can play longer. because you find dying first 'unfun'.
Or you want snipers removed because you find it 'unfun' that someone can shoot you across the map before you see them.
Also; if gens speeds were changed, camping would be less viable because it's boring for the Killer as well. But it's one of the only ways to slow down gen speeds. So don't give me bunk about how gen speeds can't be slowed because of camping.
Camping exists because gens speeds are too fast.
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Also; if gens speeds were changed, camping would be less viable because it's boring for the Killer as well. But it's one of the only ways to slow down gen speeds. So don't give me bunk about how gen speeds can't be slowed because of camping.
That has literally nothing to do with viability. And I'm not sure how you can possibly come to the conclusion that making it easier for killers to get more than 2 kills when camping could make camping -less- viable.
But I feel like you're reaching some kind of blood pressure limit, so I'll just let you simmer. It's not like there's gonna be any reasonable discussion from you, anyway.
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That perk exists and it's called Kindred.
Though, for all of the "make Kindred basekit!" cries that get posted, this is the best one yet. The aura of the hooked survivor being a different colour if the killer is close. Perhaps it fades from red to white, as the killer comes up to the hook. Facecamping = pure white, 24 meters = back to red, everything in between is a gradient based on distance.
It doesn't tell you exactly where the killer is, but it gives away blatant facecamping. White is the colour of 'blocked objective' so it would make perfect sense, it's an unhook you can't safely make.
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You don't seem to understand that camping only works because Survivors let it work.
Slower gens does not make camping MORE viable; It takes some of the pressure away and reduces the mindset of 'I NEED this kill NOW!' Since 1 kill = 25% loss in gen efficiency. Killers would not need to camp if they did not have 6-7 minutes to do 12 minutes worth of work in.
If Survivors still stop gens & hump the hook, then camping still works. Even if gens took 30 seconds; if Survivors stopped working on gens, camping would still work.
But you continue this narrative of camping being some OP tactic that forces Survivors to throw themselves at the Killer like groupies. You flat out refuse to admit that it is your fault if you stop doing gens & loiter around a camping Killer. Because you can't comprehend not getting that unhook.
It's clear you are convinced you deserve the unhook because you want it (or else you would just do gens) and are willing to screw over the game balance in order to serve your own needs.
And that's all 'punish camping!" threads are; Survivors sublimely convinced that they deserve the unhook because they 'stopped gens' and 'walked all the way across the map', and Killers should be forced, by any means possible, to give them that unhook.
It's the DBD version of 'Remove snipers because being sniped is unfair' from CoD or Planetside. It's entitled Survivors demanding the opposing team be screwed for their own needs. Because losing is 'unfun'. But they don't want to admit that they just want easier matches, so they hide it behind such things as 'it's not fun' and 'the health of the game', when it boils down to 'Give me what I think I deserve'.
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so i'm a killer main(to the extent i clearly didn't even know how kindred worked), I do play survivor. I disagree with Power_guys sentiment that we should just ignore the unfun part of this. I don't really care how much fun the 3 survivors doing gens are hurling themselves at hook have, they have choice and agency, and they can do what the want, either do gens, or make risky plays to save the hooked person.
the part where I am on the survivors side for this one, is the person on the hook. spending a few minutes on hook and then dying is not a fun match, and it's not a fair punishment for getting downed once. It's a scenario I think would never happen in a healthy game, though I don't agree with punishing killers, or as hard of tactics as teleporting killers away for it. Most solutions that aren't "incentivize, and give the proper information" are less healthy than allowing camping to happen in some small number of matches. I've probably played a few dozen hours of survivor and have seen camping happen once.
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Don't get me wrong; I am 100000000% for hooked Survivors getting a BP bonus. For being 'Wriggling Meat' or a distraction, or something, when camped. They deserve the BP because not getting any sucks, and getting camped sucks.
But I am also 100000000% against exploitable mechanics & punishments for 'camping' when it is, more than it is NOT, a valid strat that slows down gen speeds.
Killers remove 25% OR MORE of the Survivors doing gens, because 1 is hooked, and 1 or 2 (or sometimes all 3) remaining are coming to save them. And why should the predator move if they prey is walking into their jaws? More to the point, why should he be punished for Survivors choosing to do this?
As you said, it's player agency:
The Killer decided to chase that player, down him, hook him, & see if anyone comes.
The Survivors decided to leave gens and sneak to the hook, where they learned the Killer is camping so they...continue to hang around the hook? That was their choice; why should the Killer be forced to walk away, if he knows Survivors are nearby?
And player agency is why I will, always and forever, be against any 'punishments' to 'fix camping'. Because all they are, are exploitable mechanics and punishments meant to give Survivors an unhook just because they want it, or punish the Killer for playing 'unfairly'.
None of the suggestions has ever grasped three vital things:
- Camping only works if Survivors leave gens
- Killers are players, too. They deserve to try just as hard to win as Survivors doing gen rushing
- There are too many times when camping is legitimately used to win matches. Like when a Survivor is hooked between two gens at 70%. Why should the Killer be forced to leave? Why should he be punished? Why should the hook teleport away? Just because Survivors want that unhook?
So again; give the camped Survivor BP. Sure. Distraction Points or something, probably in the Boldness category? But NEVER punish the Killer for trying to win just as hard as genrushing Survivors.
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The truth most survivor mains out There want not to admit is that killers that camp do that because of getting genrush (having a bad game not playing well, bad maps or go against swf that play optimally). In that losing scenario the only reasonable strategic choise is to make pressure on the hook, capitalize that punishing bad save try, tryng to confirm the kill or slug. Camping is a strategy, like genrushing. Both are passive strategy, because not based on the interactive part of the game (camp and genrush are both issues in my personal opinion, because no revolving ability) , wich are chases, but are design part pf the game (I didnt like both at all, but like most players I use it when needed, because are good to "win". Some players only like to win and have fun only with that).
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ahh okay i misunderstood your viewpoint, I think I largely agree with all of those points.
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Ah yes, the ususal " Triggered face camping killer who can't accept the fact that it isn't a real strat and is only used by ######### killers who are too scared to go for another survivor."
This forum has a daily quota to meet!
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If the better survs would stop to bully weaker killers there would probably be less face camping in order to secure maybe one kill.
A lot of killers don´t enjoy camping but it is their only chance left sometimes. Thank mmr for it.
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Actually you don't need any perk. If you doing continuously loop around same window or palettes , all killers doing camp , If you waste much times of killer with palettes / jungle gym or window loops, killer doing camp that's all. you can't escape from this situation and hook. DS is not solution. All killers waiting 60 sec for DS...
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