Objection mandy's opinion about Nurse
Hi
I've seen mandy's opinion about nurse
He said nurse doesn't have problem even though Nurse is super strong because it is so hard to be adept nurse.
Yeah nurse is op in highest rank. Actually middle-low skilled user can't handle nurse so statistic looks nurse is normal killer. But It is not.
I've worked in game industry and I totally against this mention. It is horrible mind of balancing.
Hard to be skillful user doesn't mean character should have super power.
For example, most of famous game like LOL, DOTA also has characters like nurse
But they are not OP. Just they are tricky. So they can show good performance with skillful user but most of players also can barely good result too.
Have you ever seen Nurse challenge of Sal_gu (streamer who is no.1 killer in KR) ?
He try to show how nurse is broken when skillful user want to kill survivors.
He choose nurse every games. Less than 3% players could survive. Is it normal you think?
In game environment, upward leveling of user's skill is unavoidable because the number of new players will decrease and left players get adept more. Which means in the future, Most of adept users can slaughter new players with nurse. It is not hard to see this culture. For example, most of battle fighting game and FPS game has barrier to entry because of broken balance and culture.
below link is reaction of it.
Nurse experiment (400 kills) - Page 3 — Dead By Daylight
Is nurse broken? : deadbydaylight (reddit.com)
Also, Actually, In KR server red rank, If killer choose Nurse or spirit (Mother-Daughter Ring + Yakuyoke Amulet addon), survivors withdraw gen and wait other survivor killed to escape to hatch. I think it shows future of DBD with broken balance.
The reason why nurse has problem is below.
- Most of high rank player choose Nurse every time if they want to win. Which means in terms of balance, meta can be easy to be fixed. For example, in KR server, there are more skillful users especially survivors than other server. So, in 1-2 red ranks, most of killers pick Nurse, Spirit, Blight to win because if they don't choose them, they can get just t-bagging.
- It makes deformed league culture as well. Now, most of leagues ban nurse's add-on. (Also, some league ban spirit's add-on too) Because people know that she is OP in highest player. Which means it is not good for DBD's E-Sport plan.
- It can make entry barrier. If new survivor face skillful nurse player, they can delete game.
- Upward leveling of user's skill and decrease of new players can't be avoidable. Which means in the future, just choose Nurse can be mandatory.
I don't say just "NERF NURSE BOOOO!". Because tricky characters are also needed in game. But it is too much.
So Dev have to make it easy to play Nurse more to get more Nurse users (especially middle rank) and adjust her power as well. Yeah maybe It need remake of her ability and add-on as well.
Blueprint of her ability should be changed. It's not the matter of nerf or buff.
Thank you
Comments
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Until the objective power of SWF is addressed either via a nerf (somehow) or by buffing Solo Q, we shouldn't adjust anymore Killers.
Every rework either solidifies SWF'S state in the game or makes the Solo experience more miserable.
No new Killer reworks should be done until we make Solo = SWF.
Once they are on an even playing field, we can talk about more reworks.
At the end of the day, if the rework for a Killer comes out and nothing changes, like with Clown, it's a bad rework and if a lot changes, like with Freddy or Bubba, it becomes more miserable for Solo Q but doesn't really affect SWF.
Post edited by Pulsar on39 -
Nurse is such a strange killer, she doesn't play dbd she plays the Nurse game.
As long as the devs don't make killers like nurse in the future i think itll be okay.
I honestly have no idea what they could do to fix nurse, it would be nice to make her more user friendly for people of all skill levels, but also not make her super strong.
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Nurse is the single worst designed killer in the game. Not even twins or spirit can compare because they still have to play the basic pallet/ window looping game
Nurse just ignores everything
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By saying this we can arguably say that PH and hag ignore them too
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Hag has to make trap to ignore it and survivors can deal with it. It's different case.
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Nurse can't be changed.
Make no mistake, it is technically possible. She would require a Freddy-level rework as no matter how hard you nerf her, she will always be a top-tier killer because she ignores every defense survivors have outside of jukes and making her guess.
But that's the problem. There are many that to this day despise the Freddy rework because, essentially, his former players lost their killer. But let's say you believe Nurse is such a problem that this is a necessary evil. Why don't they?
Nurse isn't like Freddy. She's not like Spirit. She is a very, very old killer. She's an honorable member of the original trio because of how old she is. She is a relic from an older era of DBD but has been in the game for so long that they essentially can't touch her because, like it or not, the community more or less accepts her and her status as the strongest killer. If you touch her, you will get an unholy amount of backlash—don't believe me, then check some of the responses to her rework some time back.
The devs know this. They're not dumb despite some questionable decisions in the past. With this in mind, they did the only thing they could—make her extremely hard to play/control so that she doesn't become common, so while there will be the occasional game with a god-Nurse, there'll be so few and far between that people won't be too likely to get riled up.
Now, you can disagree with this being valid reasoning, but it is what it is.
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Wasn't sal_gu's "experiment" conducted when combinations like omega blink were still a thing and missing blinks wasn't nearly as punishing because the cooldown wasn't there? Yeah that nurse did get reworked.
Also, I'm siding with the first comment on the forum post you linked. This game shouldn't be balanced around the top players as it isn't meant to be a competitive game.
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I mean, we should definitely adjust some killers. Nurse is pretty low on the list, but Spirit and Hag could use some QoL changes (on both sides).
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You do realize Nurse wasn't designed around current dbd, right? Nurse was made when we still had insta-heals, instant generators, pallet vacuum, no entity blockers, infinite loops (which are returning with breakable walls), double pallet tiles, fast vaulting from any angle, amongst other issues. If you look at how ridiculous the game was when she was created, her design is fine because there was a stupid amount of resources for survivors. Is she unbalanced for current dbd, maybe. But considering how strong swf is, I don't think she should be changed until swf is addressed.
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Ofc nurse was a mistake, just one that can't really be undone.
Also Mandy is a mod not a dev. Not saying her opinion doesn't matter or anything just she isn't involved in design or balance etc
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That’s why I want her reworked. She’s a relic of the past like insta heals or old toolboxes but unlike those two she hasn’t really been changed too much
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The devs have already shown that they have zero intention of doing this with the last update to small game. Saying that they hope solo players find the totem counter useful means they will NEVER buff solo survivors at base and are going to force them to take perks for crap swf get for free.
Solo will always be weak because of this and the game is going to slowly die.
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PH's attack can be dodged quite easily and holding W against him makes him pretty weak. He is hard to loop but pre-dropping pallets and holding W is his form of brainless counterplay.
Hag, just hold W when she places a trap. Disturb her when she sets up traps. Run to a trap if you know there is one wait till you are right at the edge of the trigger range and then run back. She won't be able to lunge at you, the slowdown she gets gives you enough distance.
Against Nurse, she ignores everything whenever she wants. Her counterplay is partly "holding W", partly "break LoS" but mostly "be unpredictable". If you try the same jukes all the time, you'll get hit. If you don't juke at all, you'll get hit. I'd say the closest to Nurse would be Spirit because she is also all about being unpredictable.
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I mean, she used to have 3 blinks base and through addons she could get 6 blinks. And there was no recharge. And she used to be a little faster than the survivors when walking. She's not nearly as strong as she used to be.
I can understand wanting her reworked, but as it stands, Nurse is still the only killer that can win no regardless of how well survivors play. Taking away the one killer that can do that, would cause a riot.
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Tbf nurse has went from being S tier to being S tier after all those nerfs
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I prefer bringing solo queue to SWF level, then balancing accordingly. However, I'm afraid that this process is so utterly slow that we'll be better off doing the boring route by nerfing SWF and calling it day.
I don't want to nerf SWF by any means, but I barely seen any progress in the past years to address the gap between solo queue and SWF. The obsession mechanic being basekit, amazing... but that's only one of three things they changed to close the gap and make the experience for solo queue better. They could've had four, but they wanted it attached to Small Game instead of it being basekit. 🤷♂️
I don't know, I support the developers regardless if it's questionable, but I'm just worried that keeping the gap will be unhealthy for game as the developers can't find a clear point to balance around.
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Yeah, that is pretty much it. That is why going against an intermediate / casual Nurse is one of the best things in the game, imo. She gets her blinks, you get your jukes, and everyone is happy :)
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I still hate it personally since I loving looping tiles while nurse just says nope and goes through it
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I don't mind it, tbh. As long as you have an actual chance of surviving, going against Nurse is not that bad. God Tier Sweaty Nurses with Infectious Fright? Now that is not good.
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Depending on the type of solo-gap closing, meaning anything except some message system or ingame voicechat, there'd be no nerfs on any killer though.
I'm really killer biased, but I understand the need to close that gap, BUT just adding all that free aura and UI stuff as people demand isnt really closing the gap. IMHO it'd make it likely for even nurse to receive buffs.
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No. I'm sorry, but a nurse is only as good as the person playing her. Changing her power is a massive ######### YOU! To the people who spent time learning her. Only 3% escaped because that person is good with nurse. It's going to be the same with pretty much any killer. If a new player is facing an experienced nurse, they were more than likely queueing with a red rank for an advantage against baby killers and it backfired. A new player will never face a good nurse under normal circumstances. As a nurse main myself, I don't choose her when I want to win. I could do that with literally any other killer. I play her because she's fun to play. You have no right to talk about tournament dbd. That isn't actually dbd, because dbd isn't a competitive game and shouldn't be treated like one. If a nurse beat your team, they can likely beat it with most other killers as well. Nurse requires a knowledge of survivor pathing, meaning that a nurse mains mind games on other killers will be close to perfect. I can get behind them changing her add-ons, because yes, some combinations are busted. However, her basekit is very balanced, so changing it isn't fair.
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Oh yeah, if we bring solo queue close enough to SWF, I wouldn't care for killer buffs.
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Hasn't been changed much? Let's see here...she doesn't have 3 blinks basekit anymore does she? She's not 115% speed anymore is she? She has two cooldowns now doesn't she? How has she barely been changed? She's had the most changes out of every killer.
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This 100%. I never really understood the people saying that they killed nurse back then though. Like, I'm a nurse main and I didn't really mind the nerf, besides missing Omegablink every now and then.
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Nurse is a break from doing the same thing over and over again. I see facing her as a breath of fresh air, even if she is a god.
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i don't think nurse stats are going to be reliable until MMR gets implemented
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I meant more How she went from being the best killer in the game to the best killer in the game after her nerfs.
she still breaks the game and has no effective counterplay
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She is strong, not OP.
Otherwise you would only see nurses everywhere.
Sure she can ignore basic loops, but when you use line of sights you'll make it harder for her.
You have to finally work to be able to escape instead of mindlessly loop a killer in the same way again, and again, and again, and again.
Now you really need to get in the head of the killer and force her to make mistakes.
Your reasoning sounds good but in reality it is pretty flawed.
You base your findings on what you've seen from someone else.
Someone who play a lot of nurse (from my understanding as I don't know that person), so yeah you can expect him to have only a 3% escape rate with nurse.
What do you think when you face me for example when I play wraith?
You get about the same percentage of escape rate.
Why?
Because I play that killer a lot and understand how to play him optimale and how to use his powers in the best way.
Even deathsquads have a very very hard time against me and most of the time don't even escape.
Does that make wraith also OP?
Nope not close, just because a person spent time learning a certain killer to use optimale, doesn't mean that that killer is suddenly OP.
It is normal that you have a very small chance to escape when you face a person who plays that killer a lot and is actually really good with that killer.
So getting to the point of it all, nurse doesn't need a rework of her powers or need a nerf.
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Difference is a good survivor can loop a good wraith. Same does not apply to nurse
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You don't have to be a competitive game to be balanced around top or even good players. If you don't balance around those players, then you just open the doors for them to abuse balance issues.
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Hard agree. Devotion 50 IF/starstruck nurse who never misses a blink = ugh. Baby nurse who can't get a single hit on you = also ugh
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Well, to each their own. It doesn't necessarily has to be a baby Nurse, but neither. a god-like Devotion 50 one Something in the middle is fine.
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some people don't want to play OP as hell characters, myself included. i'm playing trapper atm specifically because i don't have fun when i just dick on people all game with no chance of them doing anything except finding the hatch. the existence of people who play other characters has nothing to do with balance and i am so, so tired of people assuming that everyone else thinks winning is everything. some of us just like to play fair.
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Yeah well I have to agree to disagree with you.
Yes you can't loop her like a regular killer, that much is true.
Hence why many people hate to go against spirit and nurse, because they work differently.
But you can juke a nurse very well.
Stay unpredictable and don't treat her like a normal killer.
She blinks?
Run back.
Next time pretend to run back but immediately continue back where you were going when she blinks.
Use walls, trees, or anything that block the line of sight.
She have to guess your move when she can't see you.
Trust me it's really not that hard as many make sound like.
Yes you have to work for it but it's still very well doable.
A regular killer you can get away with being predictable, spirit and nurse will punish you hard for being predictable.
Now I can say I escape many times against nurse, but i already know that I will get the same answer I always get.
"you escape because you play against a bad nurse"
😬 Talking about predictability
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That's why Otz had such an easy time getting 50 wins in a row.
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Unpredictability is effective. So is stealth. You shouldn't expect to last long in a chase anyway, especially against nurse, who's entire power is centered around downing as fast as possible. If you're so predictable that she doesn't miss a blink on you, that's a you problem. No nurse should ever down you in <4 blinks. If she is downing you that quickly, that's a you problem.
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Teleporting is the problem. It completely ignores everything a survivor can do against it. The Nurse even wipes out SWFs. I would say, just make it so she can't teleport through objects.
After you do that, you can figure out how to buff her so that she's viable. Making her harder to play obviously didn't nerf her. It just made it so most people don't play. I bet there's a lot of good Nurse players that stopped playing her because she's an I-Win button.
My Suggestions...
- Stop Nurse from teleporting through objects.
- Then buff her to make her viable again. (Faster Movement speed, Extra blinks, less stun, make her work similar to how Blight works the teleports would be a burst mechanic to catch people outside of loops)
- Make her easier to play and learn while doing the first 2.
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I’ve won as clown on haddonfield. Does that make haddonfield fair?
You can’t be unpredictable against a spirit if she can literally hear your injured grunts. Nurse has more wiggle room but once the nurse is very proficient problems do arise
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I can't loop Nurse. Pls nerf.
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I’d say having to be unpredictable is a sign that the killer is in a good place- both sides get to play. Base DBD is broken, probably to an unfixable level
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I mean, Spirit is all but in a good place. I'd say almost. Give her a visual cue thag she is phasing and nerf her Add-ons, then she might be fine.
Nurse ignores all Survivors defenses, those defenses are meant to exist so you can evade the Killer.
I agree that some pallets and windows are bs, like god pallets and god windows and entire Haddoncrap needs to be looked at.
I wouldn't say that unpredictability should be the meta of this game, but outplaying via mindgames should be the meta. On certain loops this is definitely possible, but not on some others, those others definitely need to be looked at.
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I just want to say I agree but I also don't want solo to be brought "up" to SWFs power lvl. I would like SWF to be brought "down" to solo's power or somewhere in-between. If solo was made as strong as SWF is right now then nobody would play killer.
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This is what I have a problem with too, any buffs you make to solo to get them to SWF level will be an indirect buff to SWF making them stronger.
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Counterpoint:
How do survivors handle going against nurse. (or generally any killer)
Because you can see it commonly that high ranke skilled nurses go up against survivors, swf or not, that try NOTHING to counter nurses repertoire, but rely entirely on their looping and juking 'skills'.
It's the same people who will pop gens with 2-4 people having a rtb on, who will run away in a straight line from deathslinger or who will run into a basement against a nearby hag. All because finishing the match asap is the only valid approach to them, and when they lose due to that they'll declare the killerplayer as hacker or the killer as OP, unfun and boring and in need of a massive nerf.
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Oh my god finally someone else said it. It doesn't matter how much skill is needed for Nurse, if the character is a problem, "she's hard to play bro it's fine bro :(" is not a valid excuse to just shoo away that killer's problems. Dumbest line of thought I've ever heard.
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This is a constant problem survivors seem to have against any killer that doesn't play by the typical M1 killer role. Just because you can't play against every killer the same way doesn't mean they need to be changed, just adjust how you play.
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Devil's advocate for not nerfing Nurse. "We can't do this thing yet until we do this thing." And then y'all wonder why the impactful updates have come in so slow over the years.
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There are no mindgames at strong loops. The survivor dictates if he/she wants to be greedy or safe. It is broken design.
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Did you hear me complain about maps or killers? 😉
I never talked about a map being fair or unfair, we're talking about nurse after all and not about maps.
Again I still have agree to disagree with you.
The problem what many people want, many show it in this treat again, is they want killers they can see, killers that can't go through objects.
In other words, they want all killers have the same way of looping with basically the same counterplays.
Why?
Probably because they don't want to learn new ways to play against a spirit.
Just put your mind off and do the same thing every single match, day after day.
It doesn't surprise me that they keep on calling for more or new things to do as survivor.
And when they get their prayers heard, they are calling for a nerf because it's seemingly being to OP like with spirit and hex:undying.
Every killer has counters and none of the killers are OP.
Some just need a different approach when it comes to looping/juking.
And yes that includes spirit and nurse.
Btw spirit has more counters than people will admit, they just follow the mass because they find it harder and have to work for survival.
If spirit was so strong and you can't be unpredictable, than I should never been able to escape against her as I never run iron will.
Never had and never will.
But sure believe that spirit and nurse are OP killers that are unhealthy for the game.
I rather go against those 2 than against others, for me an escape is more satisfying.
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“In other words, they want all killers have the same way of looping with basically the same counterplays.”
If that was the case I wouldn’t like hag, trapper, PH, slinger, huntress, doctor and plague. They all have different ways of looping but still follow the core mechanics of DBD
Spirit doesn’t follow these mechanics because she can’t be seen by survivors and has no tells on what she is doing
Nurse doesn’t follow these fundamentals because she just ignores the game.
Nurse was designed around old dbd. This was a time when we had old BNP’s insta heals, double pallets and infinites.
Problem is nurse main mechanics haven’t changed to compensate
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