I know everyone has said this but NOED is cheap and overpowered
Yes I know the other arguments. wHAt AbOuT BoRRoWEd tImE AnD DS? theyRe OVeR poWerEd. Ds can be used one time. One time, and is a small skill check that is easy to miss. It targets killers who tunnel. Don’t tunnel = no ds. It’s easy to avoid. You don’t go after someone freshly unhooked. Borrowed time? Same thing. If you don’t tunnel it doesn’t matter, and it only offers one extra hit. Half the time hooks are in dead zones so one extra hit doesn’t help much. Two, again you shouldn’t go after someone who gets unhooked within ten seconds. That’s cheap.
now noed gives killers who are very bad at the game free kills. It offers no real risk value either. Borrowed time often makes people sacrifice themselves in case the killer decides to go after the unhooked. A risk. Noed literally makes killers too strong to make up for not being able to do their job earlier in the game. Yes ClEanSe toTemS—okay? You expect solo qued people to focus totems and not pressure gens? If the killer is trash he camps. Which means you have to gen rush leaving little time for totems. Also I should not have to bring multiple perks to counter another cheap ass play because a killer needs to be spoon fed kills
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i think what most people dont like is that it rewards the killer is just a big way, compared to other perks that are earned or the reward is gradual
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You need both perks and killers that disproportionately reward skill input. Why is that? Well its very simple, because those strategies are for new players. These things that are built into the game are made for players to be both relatively simple in execution, and give new players a way to play evenly against players with more experience. These things are called FOOS, first order optimal strategies. Ideally the player base evolves past the need for these strategies because while strong, they are not supposed to be the most powerful or optimal. Instead strategies that are more complex are supposed to give way as the pool of skill and perks expand.
Unfortunately, the second part is not what happens because there is no more complex strategies that are more powerful to be used. Survivors have made sure that any viable killer build has been quickly hamstringed or gutted. And any attempts to do anything with gen speed, thereby increasing the pool of viable perks passively, have been swiftly shut down. So really, this is a product of survivor's shortsightedness as a whole. Now each perk slot must be pulling 400% duty, and nobody gets to have any fun.
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> There is a lesson in not cleansing totems - you will be dying to NOED. Once you start cleansing totems, you'll be rewarded by escapes and ranking up :)
Unless the killer turns out not to have NOED, in which case you're screwing over yourself and your teammates by effectively doing nothing for a full minute, and that goes for up to four people depending on team coordination/presence of Small Game/Detective's Hunch.
Even if NOED isn't statistically overpowered, it's still a perk that has almost no counterplay. Detective's Hunch is probably the only thing that really hurts it, as it allows a survivor to do a sweep after gen 5 to confirm NOED's presence and dismantle it if it's there.
All other counterplay tactics benefit the killer, outside of dumb luck. Trying to clear all five totems, in solo queue especially, turns NOED into a first rate slowdown perk, exacerbated to the N'th degree if the killer turns out not to have it.
NOED is the worst perk in the game to play against. Even if it's not overpowered, it's still awful design.
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I'll start this by saying I don't like NOED. If the killer has NOED, it's quite likely I'll die to it even though I cleansed 4 totems. Sure, that's anecdotal, but it still sucks. However, NOED is the counter to Adrenaline, and I actually see Adrenaline a lot more often than I do NOED.
I wouldn't mind the devs getting rid of NOED and Adrenaline as they are and making them less annoying, but both perks would need to be changed.
It's hard to say what should be done with NOED. Once an exit gate is open, the killer is really weakened. Rather than being a threat, the killer swings their weapon and propels the survivor faster to freedom. A one-hit-down ability brings back the threat part.
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All you really have to do is cleanse totems tho. It's a high risk thing, just like using totems. You can take the chance that they have it or not. And anyway once it's revealed, it's a lot easier to find. The risk for killers is giving up a whole perk slot that might not even be useful.
And it's not like survivors are the only ones that waste time on the possibility of a perk, a survivor could have head on, borrowed time, Ds, etc. Those perks might be small effects, but obviously they are because it's 4 vs 1. A killer has to play around so many different possible perks for each different survivor and that can slow you down a lot.
I do think noed can be too strong against new survivors, and makes new killers much stronger than they really are. But I feel like at higher levels, noed is actually a valid perk for endgame builds and slowing the game. Maybe it would be better if it had different effects that benefit someone for skill. But considering how bad totems are, I like the fact it has a really strong effect. I think totems are just unbalanced, higher ranks can memorize their locations making them useless, and at low ranks they can be way overpowered. But again I like the risk reward concept, and that they are a secondary objective. I think it would be cool if some totems had a secondary effect that didn't disappear when destroyed. But idk :)
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I mean NOED used to annoy me but then i found ways around it. You should either cleanse totems you see or when exit gates can be opened then open them immediately and separate so the killer will most likely only get one kill.
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Unlike many other Hex perks, NOED remains uncleansable until the endgame, unless you manage to cleanse ALL totems, which just isn't feasible in a typical game. 3-4 can maybe be expected, and if only 1-2 are cleansed then you could say the survivors aren't doing their best. But all 5 is a lot to ask, and there can always be that one totem that you simply can't find no matter how hard you look. This actually makes it so much harder to find the NOED totem, because if you've cleansed all 4 of the 'easy' totems, then you only have the final stealth totem left that inevitably becomes NOED.
And for that, the killer gets a speed boost and insta-downs, negative half of the survivors toolkit. (one of your two health states, any second chance perks that proc when injured, medkits, etc.)
NOED should really be changed into something like:
When the final generator is repaired, NOED gains a token for each totem that hasn't been cleansed. Any successful attacks put the survivor into the dying state. Putting a survivor into the dying state consumes a token.
This way, the uncleansed totems are snapshotted when the final gen is completed, and you're limited to how many insta-downs you can get based on how thorough survivors have been up until this point.
Yes this limits the killers power, in a rather fair way, but it also pressures survivors to do bones before the last gen is completed, not after, which makes it a more effective slow-down perk as well.
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I say make noed base kit but give survivors an actual totem counter next to the gen one and not just a perk so they have an incentive to do totems as a secondary objective.
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Survivors: *Can cleanse NoED before it ever becomes a threat, thereby forcing the Killer to play with 3 perks.*
Also Survivors: NoED is OP and has no counters! It gives free kills!
This mindset just shows that Survivors don't want to do anything except gens, as fast as possible, without punishment. They are literally the counter to NoED, yet they complain NoED has no counters.
Umm, no. NoED is fine. Do bones. NoED punishes Survivors who don't commit to cleansing them all because it does NOTHING until end game.
The Killer is forced to 3 perks until end game. They don't need some other crap on top of that just because Survivors find it unfair. Heck, Survivors would find it 'unfair' and 'OP' that the Killer can hit them, if they thought they could convince BHVR remove attacking.
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This, right here. More complex and high risk/high reward strategies that Killers employ get nerfed swiftly due to Survivor complaints. Every time Killers lose a viable tool, they resort to the next best thing. Fact is, losing isn't fun no matter how it happens but survivors won't ever grasp that.
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just pick detective's hunch :D
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NOED is cheap, but it's not overpowered. Unless the survivors are sticking around knowing NOED is in play the killer should only be able to pick up 1 kill without survivors cleansing the totem.
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By the logic of its one time use or can be countered wouldn't that mean noed is just fine
it can be counted by having all totems cleansed and even if it activates its one time use since they only need to find a remove 1 totem
plus if you can bring niche scenarios into the argument wouldn't the inverse of arguments for niche bt and ds scenarios say both of those perks are broken as well
either way by this circular logic they are all either broken since niche scenarios exist, or they are all fine because they have counters / limited usage
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Like you said you can just do bones and remove noed before it activate. You say noed reward bad killer but in my opinion noed punish survivor for rushing the gen. Honestly i will run noed over ruin anytime its probably one of the best hex perk because survivor dont know its in play until its too late. I think its a great back up perk too. You gave the example of ds being a 1 time use honestly if i hit 2 or more people with noed uts 100% the survivor fault they know i have the perk and tgey feed me instead of leaving or this can cut the last chase by half you you close the hatch.
I think noed is balance and overated too because everytime survivor get hit by the perk its because they got greedy in a loop cause they are full health and they say i can tank the hit it does not matther and they get ######### by the perk
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You're right; NoED punishes bad Survivors who rush gens.
But Survivors blame Killers for everything:
- Survivor near the hook? Killer is camping.
- Survivor waiting to Flashlight/pallet save? Killer is slugging.
- Survivor does an unsafe unhook? Killer is tunneling.
- NoED activates because Survivors 'genrushed' (I hate the term, it's just doing gens ASAP) & ignored totems? It's because the Killer is bad!
It's like some Survivors can't accept that THEY made a bad play, so they continue to make the same bad play, and then they demand the Devs change the entire game to give them a safety net for their bad plays.
IE: They don't suck at doing totems; NoED is OP!
They aren't going for bad unhooks/hanging around the hook, or otherwise not doing gens! The Killer is camping/tunneling/slugging! CHANGE THE GAME!
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dO BonEs.
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NOED isn't countered by clearing all five totems before the fifth gen, that just turns it into a slowdown perk IF successful.
If you miss one, you risk making NOED stronger.
NOED is countered by Detective's Hunch, dumb luck, and if NOED isn't equipped, it's countered by identifying all four killer perks.
Yes, NOED is still in play when it's not equipped.
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...The whole point of Hex perks was to slow down gen speeds by giving Survivors a second objective. NoED makes sure Survivors need to do that, just by being in the game.
If NoED did not exist, Survivors would never cleanse totems, and the whole reason for totems would fail. As evidenced by how many salty Survivors ignore totems, then whine about how 'OP' NoED is.
NoED is fine. It's countered by doing bones, regardless of how much you try to pretend that's not the case. NoED is not OP. Get gud.
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Instead of saying that noed is unfair, you should see the game from the point of view that maybe, it's just not enough to make the gens to escape safely. But if you open the gates after several minutes, then you haven't accomplished all your goals, and you'll be punished for it. Making the totems is part of the game, and if you don't remove it, then you shouldn't be surprised, and certainly not attack the player who took Noed.
Apart from that, it's also a certain thrill when you realize in the endgame that the killer has Noed.And the thrill increases the fun of the game, which the survivors like to demand from the killers. But then you don't win anymore, so it's not fun after all.
What I'm saying is, Noed brings a fun component and a bit of spice to the game. But as long as survivors only have fun when they win, Noed will always be an "unfair" perk. And before anyone asks, I also play survivor and I love Noed.That component at the end is so funny when you ask yourself "Oh the totems, I did two, but the others? Does the killer have Noed?" And then you're instantly blown away. "Ok, he has :D"
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All right then, mister 'git gud', let's run a scenario.
You load into a match. You're playing solo. You spend two minutes roaming the map to find totems and manage to break down three. You have no idea if the last two are done. Some other solo shmuck is doing the exact same thing and while you're hunting the two totems he broke, he's hunting the three totems you broke.
Someone dies because you're basically operating on half team strength for a couple minutes and now you turn to gens. Game progresses as normal, you finish gen 5 and make a dash for the exit. NOED doesn't proc, because all five totems are down, fantastic, you countered it! You get out, you check the killer loadout.
I'm All Ears, Make Your Choice, Bamboozle and the obligatory BBQ & Chili.
Yes, if you ONLY count scenarios in which NOED is actually equipped, doing bones is somewhat of a counter, since it diminishes it from a near guaranteed kill to a hardcore slowdown perk, provided you do it perfectly and it doesn't end up doing both roles at the same time.
But if NOED ISN'T equipped, trying to counter it by doing bones makes it still function as a slowdown perk WITHOUT BEING EQUIPPED.
Remember when DS was so oppressive that having an obsession in the game would make killers try to counterplay it, even if it turned out DS wasn't equipped? It's the same problem. The flimsy 'counterplay' risks adding value to a perk that's not in play.
Even if NOED isn't OP, it's not a well-designed perk and should be reworked, and no, 'doing bones' is not a counterplay. Especially since the perk is rarely ran. (Unless it's a Clown. Clowns always bring NOED, so then you actually -can- counterplay it.)
If NoED did not exist, Survivors would never cleanse totems, and the whole reason for totems would fail. As evidenced by how many salty Survivors ignore totems, then whine about how 'OP' NoED is.
A) That's not true since they can still host Hexes and
B) Then rework them to have baseline, -consistent- value. NOED's 'all or nothing' approach is just as garbage as your attitude.
EDIT: C) This is also the least efficient way to make totems have value, since someone can cleanse 4 and get 0 result out of it in terms of stopping NOED, making it so that cleansing them had no value, or worse, shifted it to a godspawn totem.
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You're acting like the POSSIBILITY of NoED exists and the SURVIVOR CHOICE to cleanse or not is unfair for Survivors.
This shows your opinion is so heavily Survivor-biased that you have no idea what balance is. NoED is supposed to be an unknown threat. You are supposed to decide if you want to risk doing bones and being killed, or not doing bones, and having a hex in play you did not expect.
Kind of like how an Obsession is now appearing in every match, regardless of perks picked, so Killers have to guess if someone has Obsession perks or not. Or is it only okay for Survivors to get information blackout against the Killer? Because I don't see you crying about that! ONLY KILLERS are OP if they have any sort of information blackout against the poor, abused, hapless Survivors!
But instead YOU, like all Survivors wanting EZ wins, act like that risk vs reward is unfair because you want your hand held. You want to do gens ASAP & ignore totems. SO it's 'unfair' and 'OP' that NoED exists for the sole reason of being a hidden threat.
Once again; NoED is fine. Only baby Survivors whine about it. Do bones. Risk being found. Get gud.
I rarely use NoED, since some Survivors cleanse totems right quick, but I think I'll use it more just to tick off the Survivors who say day in and day out about how 'unfair' it is that they can't genrush & leave while twerking at the Killer.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
NOED can be disabled easily if you take the time to cleanse every totem you encounter.
NOED is actually very strong yes, but it is yes for killers who have a hard time in game and also to counter gen rushers 4SWF squads.
Gen rushing is not a bad way of playing, but usually, gen rushers won't take the time to cleanse totem to make the most gens possible in the less time possible. That is how noed takes its place: if there are still 5 totems on the map and a surv gets easily down after a 2 minutes long game of gen rushing, now the squad has to make a choice: leave their friend behind or try to save him with the chance of be taken down easily, or take the time to seek the totem.
Yes NOED is used by bad killers, but it is a game changer for higher ranked games where you think you can encounter gen rushing squads. I don't see anything bad with this perk, because i rarely get killed by it, and it is easily shut down by cleansing the totem... otherwise, well yea, the killer will only have 1 kill and everybody will leave the dead survivor. But I don't think it is OP. Just cleanse totems.
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Kind of like how an Obsession is now appearing in every match, regardless of perks picked, so Killers have to guess if someone has Obsession perks or not.
Name me an obsession perk that is important for the killer to know about.
That is the difference.
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NOED isn't overpowered, but it certainly is cheap, and I agree on that part.
It needs a rework. Not a buff, not a nerf, but a rework.
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It is not overpowered, it's just unfun for both parties tbh, unless you need to do a challenge.
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D. Strike, for one. Now the Killer has to assume every Survivor has it & play around it, even when it is not in the match. But I'm sure that's fine, to your clear bias.
NoED is fine. It does not need changing, nerfing, or buffing. It's an unknown threat Survivors can cancel, if they're not lazy. Problem is; Survivors want to be lazy. They want easy wins. They want to clear gens as fast as possible, without interruption.
Hence why ANYTHING that slows them down these days is called 'OP' or 'unfun'.
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Here's the counterplay to DS: You go for the unhooker, not the unhooked.
Contrast to: Hunt and destroy all five totems.
You would have a point back when DS was still a minute of being untouchable, but DS has been nerfed so critically that it no longer poses much of a threat -unless- the killer is actively tunnelling really hard into it. Killers don't really care about Decisive Strike anymore.
NoED is fine. It does not need changing, nerfing, or buffing. It's an unknown threat Survivors can cancel, if they're not lazy. Problem is; Survivors want to be lazy. They want easy wins. They want to clear gens as fast as possible, without interruption.
You wanna know my main build?
Detective's Hunch, For the People, Inner Strength, Fixated. Even if NOED were to be deleted, I'd still be doing totems because it's an aspect of my playstyle. I enjoy taking down totems.
However, that makes no difference to whether or not NOED is good design. It just isn't, and it needs to be reworked. It'd already be better design if NOED was baseline. It'd be WAY better design if it was baseline AND tied to the number of totems left on the map. Just anything that isn't 'If you counterplay this and it's not actually in play, you actually made it stronger' combined with 'you did the counterplay, but you got 4 out of 5 so we're rewarding you zilch'.
But you plug your fingers in your ear because you're so adamant that any change made to anything killers do is just 'clear survivor bias' and 'survivors being lazy' and 'survivors just wanting to hold M1 on gens!'.
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Amazingly, most the people in this thread say NoED is fine. I think that means you are the one being wrong.
But keep raging about how I should 'stop posting' because I disagree with you, oh amazing god of DBD who clearly is never wrong about anything.
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No, I said you should stop posting if you can't keep yourself from hurling insults at the survivor playerbase every single time you hit 'post comment'. Disagree all you want, but be a decent person about it.
And no, it's not 'most of the people in this thread'. It's actually pretty much 50/50, and there's a lot of people that explicitly state 'It's not OP, BUT it should still get reworked'. And if we're going on the actual discussion of NOED being poorly designed, there's a couple of advocates for the perk that don't express themselves on that subject, since they're more oriented to discussing the perk's viability, so I think overall, the thread's consensus leans more towards 'NOED is not well-designed'. Not very strongly, mind, but it's still a better estimation than 'most of the people say NOED is fine'. Because that is plainly not true.
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We know no one has said that because it isn't.
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