The Perfect Hatch Rework
WARNING: These are just rough numbers and can be tweaked later on. Feedback is necessary to help me improve this idea!
New Mechanic: (Black Chests & Hatch Key)
Black Chest:
-Only one black chest will spawn in the trial.
-Killer will see the aura of the black chest at all times and will see a visual notification whenever a survivor begins searching a black chest.
-Takes the same amount of time to search a normal chest.
-Can be searched to find a hatch key.
Hatch Key:
-Survivors can hold both their carried item and the hatch key (In their pocket).
-The hatch key can be used to open black locks (AKA the hatch).
-Survivors will drop the hatch key whenever they are sacrificed, mori'd, Franklins Demise, or they DC.
New Hatch Spawning Rules:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.
End Game Mechanics:
-After being the last survivor for 30 seconds, the killer will see the survivor's aura and the survivor can see the hatch's aura (since it doesn't make a opened "hum" noise anymore).
-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
-The map will begin to pour bloody rain and thunder whenever there is only one survivor remaining.
Constructive criticism and feedback is required to help me improve this system!
Comments
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Suggestions:
- If you open all chests on the map, the hatch key will spwan in a radius of 16m near the three chests the moment only one survivor is alive. Keep current hatch spawning rules. (This essentially means that keys would continue to work like they currently do)
- If you are the last survivor alive, the aura of the hatch key is shown to you until picked up
- The killer cannot grab the survivor while the survivor is opening the hatch with any key (Yes, this could be removed but would just lead to the survivor waiting until the exit gates are opened automatically, meaning that the survivor would win anyways)
- The killer and survivor see each other's auras for 2 seconds every 60 seconds. This allows for the survivor to chose between hiding briefly and gaining distance and also lets the survivor know when the killer is seeing them. This also prevents the survivor from hiding until the exit gates open up.
- The survivor becomes exposed and mori-able 1 minute after the exit gates opened and Blood Warden activates.
- To make it easier for the survivor to juke/lose the killer to gain distance or to hide while the killer is not seeing them, thicken the Dark Mist every 30 seconds and make the moonlight darker.
This would give plenty of options to outplay each other for both sides. The killer can patrol the chests, and if he can prevent the survivor from obtaining the key or finds him before he does so, he will most likely win. The survivor can escape by stealthing around the killer to obtain the key while also paying attention to the fact that he is visible every 60 seconds.
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@Nickenzie said:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
So a survivor who is only good at looping can win games now. No point in bothering to do gens or anything, just survive until last person and loop and then escape when the doors open?
Fun, fun.0 -
Suggestions (sorry this is out of order):
3. Hatch Spawn Rules: Current hatch spawn rules remain the same: 3 gens left, 1 survivor alive; 2 gens left, 2 survivors alive; 1 gen left, 3 survivors alive; Exit Gates powered, 4 survivors alive; just require the Black Key to open the hatch (while not making hatch-oriented achievements unobtainable).
1. Black Chest: The Black Chest will always spawn in the basement where the other chest spawn is (not where the regular basement chest is). The Entity will block that portion of the Basement until the conditions are met for the Hatch to spawn (see #3). Given that players will always know where the Black Chest spawns, it's unnecessary for the killer to see it's aura at all times. The killer should not get a notification ESPECIALLY if it's only in the basement (to prevent the killer from camping it).
2. Black Key: I would add that the Black Key's auras can be read by the killer and other survivors when within 16 meters (while someone is carrying it), and have infinite range when dropped (to prevent a troll survivor from claiming the key then DC-ing in a random corner to screw over the remaining survivors). Obtaining the Black Key will trigger the End-Game, and allow that survivor to see the hatch's aura from any range.
4. End-Game: After the Black Key is obtained, the Exit Gates will become powered, but require 20 additional seconds to open PER generator needed to repair (plus tokens from Remember Me). Powering the Exit Gates will trigger all end-game perks (such as Adrenaline, NOED, etc). Both killer and survivor (if not holding the Black Key can see the hatch's aura when within 20 meters. After 1 minute of obtaining the Black Key, all player auras are revealed to each other when standing outside of 30 meters from each other.1 -
@se05239 said:
@Nickenzie said:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
So a survivor who is only good at looping can win games now. No point in bothering to do gens or anything, just survive until last person and loop and then escape when the doors open?
Fun, fun.Yes thats how DBD works, everything revolves around looping
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Yes, I would rather lose to a survivor skillfully out playing me for 3 minutes instead of getting the escape for free.se05239 said:@Nickenzie said:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
So a survivor who is only good at looping can win games now. No point in bothering to do gens or anything, just survive until last person and loop and then escape when the doors open?
Fun, fun.0 -
@Nickenzie said:
se05239 said:@Nickenzie said:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.
-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
So a survivor who is only good at looping can win games now. No point in bothering to do gens or anything, just survive until last person and loop and then escape when the doors open?
Fun, fun.
Yes, I would rather lose to a survivor skillfully out playing me for 3 minutes instead of getting the escape for free.
The problem here lies in the fact that he doesn't have to do anything other than being the last one alive. That's it.
No generators fixed, no fellow survivors saved. Just avoid the killer until he gets found and then loop a bunch and run out.0 -
I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
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You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.0 -
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
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If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.0 -
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.0 -
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!Rebel_Raven said:
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.0 -
So, what you're saying is that if no one, or the last person gets the key someone else had, they're basically screwed.Nickenzie said:
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!Rebel_Raven said:
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.
If someone doesn't get the key they have to memorize all the sacrifice locations, provided the key even drops there, get the key, and survive vs a killer that can effortlessly track them for 3 minutes, plus getting to the gate.
Also some troll survivor might just drop it somewhere.
No, that's not really a chance. May as well have an I win card.
That end game is thoroughly one sided.
Plus the killer can tunnel the one with the key, use Ferguson's and basically destroy that end game. Even if it was a hook death, it's an insane stipulation.
They can tunnel the hell out of the last person period.
So, yeah, it's not really giving someone a chance.
The only chance, I'd say they have, is if they get the key just as they become the last alive, and getting out of the hatch in about 30 seconds if they're lucky and blood warden or other aura reading perks aren't on.
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I think that you are misunderstanding me @Rebel_Raven because I think that you are making this look more difficult than it is.Rebel_Raven said:
So, what you're saying is that if no one, or the last person gets the key someone else had, they're basically screwed.Nickenzie said:
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!Rebel_Raven said:
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.
If someone doesn't get the key they have to memorize all the sacrifice locations, provided the key even drops there, get the key, and survive vs a killer that can effortlessly track them for 3 minutes, plus getting to the gate.
Also some troll survivor might just drop it somewhere.
No, that's not really a chance. May as well have an I win card.
That end game is thoroughly one sided.
Plus the killer can tunnel the one with the key, use Ferguson's and basically destroy that end game. Even if it was a hook death, it's an insane stipulation.
They can tunnel the hell out of the last person period.
So, yeah, it's not really giving someone a chance.
The only chance, I'd say they have, is if they get the key just as they become the last alive, and getting out of the hatch in about 30 seconds if they're lucky and blood warden or other aura reading perks aren't on.
If you find the chest, wait for someone to occupy the killer then search it for the hatch key. Now you can either do generators, be altruistic, or do nothing but you probably won't pip. When you see the hatch aura after 30 seconds, run to it and open the hatch. Killer having a standoff? Exit gates will open in 3 minutes. The survivor has a lot of control in my opinion.
PS: I appreciate the civil conversation that we are having, even though we disagree with each other.0 -
Imo, I don't believe you can offer a balance idea unless you think of all the ways it can go wrong. Well, I mean you can, but I'd hope that a pessimist would pick it apart, and reassemble it before it goes into action.Nickenzie said:
I think that you are misunderstanding me @Rebel_Raven because I think that you are making this look more difficult than it is.Rebel_Raven said:
So, what you're saying is that if no one, or the last person gets the key someone else had, they're basically screwed.Nickenzie said:
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!Rebel_Raven said:
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.
If someone doesn't get the key they have to memorize all the sacrifice locations, provided the key even drops there, get the key, and survive vs a killer that can effortlessly track them for 3 minutes, plus getting to the gate.
Also some troll survivor might just drop it somewhere.
No, that's not really a chance. May as well have an I win card.
That end game is thoroughly one sided.
Plus the killer can tunnel the one with the key, use Ferguson's and basically destroy that end game. Even if it was a hook death, it's an insane stipulation.
They can tunnel the hell out of the last person period.
So, yeah, it's not really giving someone a chance.
The only chance, I'd say they have, is if they get the key just as they become the last alive, and getting out of the hatch in about 30 seconds if they're lucky and blood warden or other aura reading perks aren't on.
If you find the chest, wait for someone to occupy the killer then search it for the hatch key. Now you can either do generators, be altruistic, or do nothing but you probably won't pip. When you see the hatch aura after 30 seconds, run to it and open the hatch. Killer having a standoff? Exit gates will open in 3 minutes. The survivor has a lot of control in my opinion.
PS: I appreciate the civil conversation that we are having, even though we disagree with each other.
This one is a doozey, imo.
I'm making it sound harder because it can get that hard, or worse.
Your scenario is the survivor that gets the key stays alive the whole time and gets that chance to use the hatch.
Pretty sure no killer will let that happen if they can do anything about it.
You aren't accounting for multiple scenarios that will just annihilate any chance a survivor has under that system. Largely when the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th person has to own the key.
If you find the chest, you alert the killer getting the key.
The killer finds you, tunnels you, kills you because no survivor should be able to 1vs1 a killer, and people really hate hatch plays, so they want you dead.
Key drops at the hook if everyone else is lucky.
They have to remember what hook that is, if they're lucky for it to drop there.
The killer has a huge opportunity because a survivor probably won't wait until the very end to find it meaning it could get lost very early in the game. That is a long time to remember that one spot.
Then the end game. The killer manages 3 deaths, maybe 10 minutes later. 2 gens are left. They killed the guy with the key. Maybe a few key owners.
The hatch isn't open. The killer can use their full arsenal to find the last one. Aura reading, traps, etc.
The survivor has to remember the hook at best, at worst where the guy with the key got hit first. They don't know who has the key, so that's 3 possible hooks. If the killer has the park that makes people drop stuff, that's 3 hits that could have happened anywhere on the map.
Say the survivor manages to find the key.
They have 30 seconds to get their bearings provided the killer isn't on them, and get to the hatch, and that's against a full perk killer.
If the killer is camping the key, they spot the survivor, and chases them down in a heart beat. No chance. There's no realistic play a survivor can make in 30 seconds to get the killer off the key, get the key, and get out. Any longer and the killer has full aura reading.
30 seconds of fruitless searching could easily doom a survivor. Zero chance, realistically.
That's just off the top of my head.
I do try to be civil, thanks. I appreciate the civil discussion with you, too.
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What would you do to balance it out?Rebel_Raven said:
Imo, I don't believe you can offer a balance idea unless you think of all the ways it can go wrong. Well, I mean you can, but I'd hope that a pessimist would pick it apart, and reassemble it before it goes into action.Nickenzie said:
I think that you are misunderstanding me @Rebel_Raven because I think that you are making this look more difficult than it is.Rebel_Raven said:
So, what you're saying is that if no one, or the last person gets the key someone else had, they're basically screwed.Nickenzie said:
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!Rebel_Raven said:
Let me re-ask a question.Nickenzie said:
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.Rebel_Raven said:
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.Nickenzie said:
You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.
Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.
The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.
If someone doesn't get the key they have to memorize all the sacrifice locations, provided the key even drops there, get the key, and survive vs a killer that can effortlessly track them for 3 minutes, plus getting to the gate.
Also some troll survivor might just drop it somewhere.
No, that's not really a chance. May as well have an I win card.
That end game is thoroughly one sided.
Plus the killer can tunnel the one with the key, use Ferguson's and basically destroy that end game. Even if it was a hook death, it's an insane stipulation.
They can tunnel the hell out of the last person period.
So, yeah, it's not really giving someone a chance.
The only chance, I'd say they have, is if they get the key just as they become the last alive, and getting out of the hatch in about 30 seconds if they're lucky and blood warden or other aura reading perks aren't on.
If you find the chest, wait for someone to occupy the killer then search it for the hatch key. Now you can either do generators, be altruistic, or do nothing but you probably won't pip. When you see the hatch aura after 30 seconds, run to it and open the hatch. Killer having a standoff? Exit gates will open in 3 minutes. The survivor has a lot of control in my opinion.
PS: I appreciate the civil conversation that we are having, even though we disagree with each other.
This one is a doozey, imo.
I'm making it sound harder because it can get that hard, or worse.
Your scenario is the survivor that gets the key stays alive the whole time and gets that chance to use the hatch.
Pretty sure no killer will let that happen if they can do anything about it.
You aren't accounting for multiple scenarios that will just annihilate any chance a survivor has under that system. Largely when the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th person has to own the key.
If you find the chest, you alert the killer getting the key.
The killer finds you, tunnels you, kills you because no survivor should be able to 1vs1 a killer, and people really hate hatch plays, so they want you dead.
Key drops at the hook if everyone else is lucky.
They have to remember what hook that is, if they're lucky for it to drop there.
The killer has a huge opportunity because a survivor probably won't wait until the very end to find it meaning it could get lost very early in the game. That is a long time to remember that one spot.
Then the end game. The killer manages 3 deaths, maybe 10 minutes later. 2 gens are left. They killed the guy with the key. Maybe a few key owners.
The hatch isn't open. The killer can use their full arsenal to find the last one. Aura reading, traps, etc.
The survivor has to remember the hook at best, at worst where the guy with the key got hit first. They don't know who has the key, so that's 3 possible hooks. If the killer has the park that makes people drop stuff, that's 3 hits that could have happened anywhere on the map.
Say the survivor manages to find the key.
They have 30 seconds to get their bearings provided the killer isn't on them, and get to the hatch, and that's against a full perk killer.
If the killer is camping the key, they spot the survivor, and chases them down in a heart beat. No chance. There's no realistic play a survivor can make in 30 seconds to get the killer off the key, get the key, and get out. Any longer and the killer has full aura reading.
30 seconds of fruitless searching could easily doom a survivor. Zero chance, realistically.
That's just off the top of my head.
I do try to be civil, thanks. I appreciate the civil discussion with you, too.0 -
I really like this idea and would love to see how it would work in game, but I know it will be abused by both sides. I don't know if its been said already but what if killer can close hatch...hear me out, killer can close hatch but when the killer closes hatch their aura is shown to survivor for about 3 seconds. the only way to open hatch is to do a generator or go to the basement where another chest would spawn guaranteeing a key, which would open hatch. But to prevent hatch camping the killer cannot close hatch if survivor is within 16 meters of hatch. Eventually all the Gens would be powered. If that happens the 1 survivor suffers from exposed effect. The survivor can see the aura of hatch but if the survivor is about 25% done opening exit gates their aura is revealed. If hatch is closed and there is no more generators on map, survivor can either wait about a minute or 2 or they can go get key.Nickenzie said:Hello, I came up with the perfect solution to the hatch rework. It's fair for both sides and doesn't cause a immersed end game that both sides hate.
WARNING: These are just rough numbers and can be tweaked later on. Feedback is necessary to help me improve this idea!
New Mechanic: (Black Chests & Hatch Key)
Black Chest:
-Only one black chest will spawn in the trial.
-Killer will see the aura of the black chest at all times and will see a visual notification whenever a survivor begins searching a black chest.
-Takes the same amount of time to search a normal chest.
-Can be searched to find a hatch key.
Hatch Key:
-Survivors can hold both their carried item and the hatch key (In their pocket).
-The hatch key can be used to open black locks (AKA the hatch).
-Survivors will drop the hatch key whenever they are sacrificed, mori'd, Franklins Demise, or they DC.
New Hatch Spawning Rules:
-The Hatch will only spawn into the trial when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial or when all five generators are completed.
End Game Mechanics:
-After being the last survivor for 30 seconds, the killer will see the survivor's aura and the survivor can see the hatch's aura (since it doesn't make a opened "hum" noise anymore).
-After being the last survivor for 3 minutes and 30 seconds, the exit gates will automatically open.
-The map will begin to pour bloody rain and thunder whenever there is only one survivor remaining.
Constructive criticism and feedback is required to help me improve this system!
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@Nickenzie said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Nickenzie said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Nickenzie said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Nickenzie said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Nickenzie said:
Rebel_Raven said:I'm not sure how this is fair for the survivor. You'll have to explain how since not all survivor players are good at everything.
The black chest is borderline useless to them as the killer can patrol it for 30 seconds, then just beeline it to the survivor and chase them down.
The survivor still has zero chance to recon the hatch location, and has to get the key from a killer that will know their location every step of the way.
How many survivors have you met that can run from a killer for a solid 3 minutes, plus the time it takes to get to a gate that only the killer will know the location of most of the time? Then add the aura reading making it even harder.
Just slug the last 2 people if you're that bent out of shape about hatches, or find the hatch and strategically position yourself, and the 2nd to last alive.
Or stand on the hatch, and get ready to hurt them.You can search the chest at anytime in the trial, not just the end of the trial when the hatch has already spawned in. So, when there are 4 survivors remaining, search the chest when the killer is occupied and you have yourself a secured escape whenever things fall apart.
The killer not only knows the location of the chest, but when people are searching it.
Short of sitting there and waiting for a killer to grab someone, there's not much that can occupy the killer. Maybe if the killer is chasing someone.
The killer may not have to be far from the chest to guard it.
Hag, and maybe the nurse could just teleport back to it. Heck, hag is basically designed to guard stuff like that.Trapper can basically deny the area, too.
Agitation and/or iron grip to help make sure people get hooked near the chest.
If the killer is gonna hard patrol the Black Box, then there will be no pressure on generators. Yes, some killers can defend both the generators and the Black Box but survivors can use this against them. Imagine a Hag going after a injured survivor and is about to down the injured survivor, however someone triggers her trap set near the Black Box. Now the killer is in a bad situation, she can either give up the chase and lose potential momentum or down the injured survivor while someone has the hatch key. Maybe the survivor triggered her trap to bait her than ran and hid in a locker? Now she doesn't know where the survivor that triggered her trap is at and she lost all momentum from the injured survivor. Survivors have a lot of control over the Black Box, they can bait a search and waste the killers time or search it while the killer has someone in their grasp. Even worse, what happens if the killer guards the Black Box when it never came down to the last survivor? That meant that the killer wasted all that time guarding something just to guard it meaning the killer wasted a ton of time. Overall, it just depends on the killer's and survivor's skill to be honest.
Let me re-ask a question.
How many survivors have you come across that can dodge you for 3 minutes solid?
Then you add in the ability to see their auras so they literally cannot hide, joke as effectively, etc.The chest wasn't my only issue with this. I still don't see it as particularly equal for survivors.
Not many because a survivor shouldn't be able to 1v1 a killer who is supposed to be 4 times as strong as the survivors. However, even with the odds being against you, at least you have a chance at escaping. I'll add on, if you would've search the Black Box which is really easy to do in my opinion, then you wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You can even search hooks of sacrificed survivors to see if they had the key if you don't like to risk yourself!
So, what you're saying is that if no one, or the last person gets the key someone else had, they're basically screwed.
If someone doesn't get the key they have to memorize all the sacrifice locations, provided the key even drops there, get the key, and survive vs a killer that can effortlessly track them for 3 minutes, plus getting to the gate.
Also some troll survivor might just drop it somewhere.
No, that's not really a chance. May as well have an I win card.
That end game is thoroughly one sided.
Plus the killer can tunnel the one with the key, use Ferguson's and basically destroy that end game. Even if it was a hook death, it's an insane stipulation.
They can tunnel the hell out of the last person period.So, yeah, it's not really giving someone a chance.
The only chance, I'd say they have, is if they get the key just as they become the last alive, and getting out of the hatch in about 30 seconds if they're lucky and blood warden or other aura reading perks aren't on.
I think that you are misunderstanding me @Rebel_Raven because I think that you are making this look more difficult than it is.
If you find the chest, wait for someone to occupy the killer then search it for the hatch key. Now you can either do generators, be altruistic, or do nothing but you probably won't pip. When you see the hatch aura after 30 seconds, run to it and open the hatch. Killer having a standoff? Exit gates will open in 3 minutes. The survivor has a lot of control in my opinion.
PS: I appreciate the civil conversation that we are having, even though we disagree with each other.
Imo, I don't believe you can offer a balance idea unless you think of all the ways it can go wrong. Well, I mean you can, but I'd hope that a pessimist would pick it apart, and reassemble it before it goes into action.
This one is a doozey, imo.
I'm making it sound harder because it can get that hard, or worse.Your scenario is the survivor that gets the key stays alive the whole time and gets that chance to use the hatch.
Pretty sure no killer will let that happen if they can do anything about it.You aren't accounting for multiple scenarios that will just annihilate any chance a survivor has under that system. Largely when the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th person has to own the key.
If you find the chest, you alert the killer getting the key.
The killer finds you, tunnels you, kills you because no survivor should be able to 1vs1 a killer, and people really hate hatch plays, so they want you dead.Key drops at the hook if everyone else is lucky.
They have to remember what hook that is, if they're lucky for it to drop there.
The killer has a huge opportunity because a survivor probably won't wait until the very end to find it meaning it could get lost very early in the game. That is a long time to remember that one spot.Then the end game. The killer manages 3 deaths, maybe 10 minutes later. 2 gens are left. They killed the guy with the key. Maybe a few key owners.
The hatch isn't open. The killer can use their full arsenal to find the last one. Aura reading, traps, etc.
The survivor has to remember the hook at best, at worst where the guy with the key got hit first. They don't know who has the key, so that's 3 possible hooks. If the killer has the park that makes people drop stuff, that's 3 hits that could have happened anywhere on the map.
Say the survivor manages to find the key.
They have 30 seconds to get their bearings provided the killer isn't on them, and get to the hatch, and that's against a full perk killer.If the killer is camping the key, they spot the survivor, and chases them down in a heart beat. No chance. There's no realistic play a survivor can make in 30 seconds to get the killer off the key, get the key, and get out. Any longer and the killer has full aura reading.
30 seconds of fruitless searching could easily doom a survivor. Zero chance, realistically.
That's just off the top of my head.
I do try to be civil, thanks. I appreciate the civil discussion with you, too.
What would you do to balance it out?
That's a tall order, TBH. The more I think about it, the more I really do not believe it can be done. I will say that up front so I don't make you read the wall of text.
There's reasons, there's reasons. I'm not just dismissing the idea without those.
For every thing that can go terribly wrong, I have to consider how to minimize it without neutering the idea entirely.
Stuff -can- still go wrong, but it has to be a challenge, not a death sentence for the survivor AND/OR killer.
The hatch really does need to be viable as an exit, but not so viable as it ticks off the killers, which the current system does, apparently, even though there's current tactics to kybosh, or fight hatch plays.That means, to me, looking at it from the eyes of a killer, and a survivor, and asking myself, "Do I want to play in that system? As a killer? As a Survivor? At my skill level? What about people who don't have my style, or the skill I do, or have more skill?"
"Am I the meth addict running around, pro juking the killer? Am I the Pokemon guide taking killers on a tour of Pallet Town? Am I average at juking? Am I no good with pallets? Am I more suited for stealth play and garbage at running? I need to put myself in their shoes as best I can."
I mean we can't screw over certain play styles that are kinda normal. We can't screw over people of high, mid, or low skill, stealth enthusiasts, juke pros, pallet pros and boy howdy this idea...Well, the aura reading after 30 seconds utterly screws the stealth centric player. If they don't have sprint burst, lithe, or perfect balance (which can be basically useless in most of every map as there's no drops. Lithe is going to suffer, too, soon. Lithe is useless in a lot of areas as it is.) then it's game over. No way around it. They simply cannot run fast enough, can they?
Heck, it even screws over some of the most wily of crack addict runners with the 3 minute timer.
I hesitate to even consider tracking boosts. I know wraiths kick my ass, and oddly, doctors who are lvl 1 running overcharge in finding me easily.
So there's that huge problem. Balancing the tracking bonus to not bone stealth players, or people who aren't good at running, or scrapping it entirely.
It's not hard to tunnel a survivor most times because I do not believe the majority are super jukers.
Maybe the aura reading doesn't work on people who are crouched?
It buys the killer time. It gives basically everyone a chance, but my gosh, it's slow if you don't have urban evasion.
Then there's Blood Warden, and assorted perks, and addons that make this severely impractical. A slow moving target being tracked without error, and maybe even unaware of it. I know Wraith, and Pig can aura read survivors with their secondary movement and the right addon, rare as they are.There's only one black key, and one chest. Trolls can drop it, so make it a permanent addition until hooked and sacrificed.
The perk that makes people drop the key does not work on it because it's thoroughly unfair. A survivor would have to run bond, or some such to see where someone got hit first, and dropped the key.
Maybe have it light up like the glass bead marker for maps when dropped? Only survivors can see it. It would fix a lot of problems, IMO.You can actually find keys that can open hatches in chests currently, IIRC, so the black chest is just a guaranteed hatch opening key.
Crap. What happens when a survivor brings in their own key? Or loots one from a normal chest? Do we nix the current key system entirely?
If we don't nix the current keys, we have to figure out how they'll work with the black system, or are there 2 separate systems. So in the end there will be 2 hatches?
But if there's the original system is still in play, it means the black chest does nothing for the hated hatch play.If we do get rid of the current key system, how do we comp the people who may be losing their keys? People might stockpile hatch opening keys.Then there's the massive amount of work redoing the entire key system.
I can't in good conscience screw over key holders, and make the devs rework the entire key, and chest system.I don't believe it can be done. It's not practical, and we have to make it fun for both ends.
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