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How is Dead Hard still a thing that exists?
Comments
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Sorry - dead hard "rarely" works. My bad.
Still - it's a nonsensical lie, and a strawman. If it rarely worked, it would rarely be run. You know damn well why people run it. You're not fooling anyone.
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How does that make sense?
Killers said hexes are destroyed within 10 seconds every match but ruin still had 80% usage at Rank one, in fact i see more hex totems than ever before despite complaints of them always being destroyed immediately.
Something doesn't have to work all the time for it to be fun to use when it does work, whether it works 100% of the time or not I'd still argue against nerfing it.
Also the amount of people who have read the words "strawman argument" and thought they knew what it meant is too damn high lmao.
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You can't counter an OP perk with a terrible one. As if getting value out of Blood Echo is a consistent thing!
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because dead hard's one second chance and doesn't do ######### against killers with insta-downs
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do you know what you have to do to get use out of that perk
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ikr. coup de grace is like the killer version of dead hard.
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Yes it can. Just don't heal after the first down and you can still use Dead Hard. And in the case of someone like a chainsaw killer, you can pretty much force them to M1 you at loop.
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Injure 2-3 people and then hook one of them. But oh look, by the time you've hooked that person, only 1 other is still injured and the other is back to full health 10 seconds later. What survivors usually do at high level is stay injured, but when they see you have this perk they'll heal because they don't feel as safe injured when they can't use their Dead Hard for an extra health state.
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When dead hard gets nerfed are you guys going to complain about the other exhaustion perks? Sprint burst is better than dead hard if you ask me, it's just less annoying because it doesn't happen in the middle of chase. Lithe works better for me than dead hard and is more annoying to deal with. Not only do they make it to the pallet or window, they get to abandon the chase and the killer's time would be wasted unless he wants to waste more time catching up to the survivor. At least with dead hard you will eventually down them.
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It's not 'free'. They need to line up a strong pallet or window, and the former means you can just destroy the pallet and pressure gens again.
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What are you too scared to debate?
I never said dead hard never works, major strawman , "guy".
Oh my god exactly, Dead Hard extends the chase the same as the other Exhaustion perks.
The different between them is Dead Hard cannot be used to move into a safer area as effectively as the others.
I rather have sprint burst because in some generator spawns they have quite literally no windows or pallets to go to nearby if the killer decides to come around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlmBSF80GDo
The reason why Dead Hard is hated among killers is because it's the most "In Your Face" move they can do and their less annoyed when a survivor sprint bursts away. And Sometimes the sprint burst often gives way better results.
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There is no debate to be scared of. But good job trying to "tough talk" me on the DBD forums, broseph. Sit down. And stay down.
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all you’ve done on this thread is try to “tough talk” people. Like sit down and stay down? Lmao.
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Until someone comes to me with an argument that is actually relevant and logical, I'll continue to disregard them. What are you going to do about it?
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Im not going to do anything because you’re acting like a child.
I can tell you’re one of those “change my mind” guys that will never think about accepting the other side of an argument and instead just try to belittle the other side to make yourself look better.
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Says he's not going to do anything, continues to try and do something. cringe
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😂. I said I’m not going to argue the dead hard topic with you, because I’ve seen you blatantly disregard valid points from multiple people and try to shove words back in their mouth.
And you’re in no place to talk about “cringe”, every reply in this thread from you has been “cringe”.
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continues to argue
cringe
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Sounds an awful lot like Bloodlust.
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Not even close. Bloodlust is completely useless in most maps, only coming into play on extremely broken ones such as Haddonfield where most window setups become infinites otherwise (as shown by the no-bloodlust experiment). A killer bloodlusting a pallet is wasting 30 seconds of their own time for a single hit, assuming it takes that little and they don't ######### it up.
Trying to compare Bloodlust to Dead Hard is comparing MoM to BT.
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Dead hard < insta down killers aka all my mains but Huntress
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Nah. You can't tell me a tonnnn of bad killers don't rely on NoED for kills they'd never get otherwise.
NoED is just as unhealthy as DH. If not more so.
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Both second chances that often reward getting outplayed? Pretty fair imo.
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Yeah then you end up ignoring them anyways, hey you'll probably be a great politician!
All you say is "cringe cringe cringe" but you have no bullets to shoot with, your merely compensating by pretending your this "stoic" guy.
In reality your blank in your logic and refuses to explain anything.
Edit: Not only you completely ignored my researched resources among the best DBD players you just proved you don't even know what the hell your talking about.
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Okay, tell me why Bloodlust is still a thing?
And once you did, that's the reason why exhaustion perks like DH still exists and they will last until BL is gone.
Don't get me wrong, I truly hate this perk. But the survivors who are knowing how to use it correctly are just buying their distance back you just got passively for doing nothing except W'ing.
We all know it's busted like most exhaustables too. But as long as Killer also gets bonus distance for free there is no reason taking it away from survivors.
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Oh, you mean like how lunges exists?
"oh look at me, I hold m1 slightly longer than normal and close an otherwise massive gap"
Same argument
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I mean, they are forced in a straight line to where their character is looking at, they cannot curve, or massively change direction last second.
Yknow, like PH, Huntress, Billy, Oni, Nurse, Doctor, Bubba having massive mobility while being able to instadown, Plague, Pig, Killer lunges in general.
Dead Hard is easy to deal with. Either force it out early in a chase, or bait it. Not that big of a deal.
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Here we have a clear example of someone who does not know how to do bones 😁
Also, NOED can be easily disabled with a totem, while DH has a cooldown of 40/50/60 seconds.. Is not the same.
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As killer i hate it but as survivor its one of my must have perks. Dead hard has a chance for some interesting game play by extending loops. While yeah it can be too strong sometimes if you catch them out in the open and they dead hard it does nothing. Compared to the other exhaustion perks dead hard is clearly superior in every way.
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I'm sure the perk was designed with the purpose to protect teammates tbh
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"rarely works"
You literally only have to press a key to reach a window or a pallet. It was not designed exclusively to dodge the killer's hitboxes.
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Have you used Dead Hard? It honestly doesn't work all that often. I've often been downed whilst in Dead Hard.
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Fun when everyone says "Sprint Burst is way better than Dead Hard", if that were true, SB would be in the meta and it's not near to being meta.
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I play this game since release, mostly on survivor side, and I never understood why devs added one perk like that in the game: the killer weapon smashes your ass or head and nothing just happens ... this sounds very stupid and clumsy from all points of view, especially DH at dropped pallets to avoid any hit on the same side as the killer KEKW
*** Bip-bip team forever ***
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Le me doing a Generator for 80 seconds.
In all honesty thought that 60 secs isn't much if you consider Killer can't chase 4 survivors at the same time.
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Dh is just bad design, counters well over half the killers and their powers when used properly
and all the arguments against nerfing something that clearly needs it are just stuff like, it can be baited out in the open, or it doesn't work consistently (usually at point blank to dodge an attack basically in the open anyway), which frankly aren't good arguments but are said into the ground since its the closest excuse
and because they have those 2 mediocre points that means dh for distance, dh to erase mistakes,
and dh to counter half the killer perks in the game is here for the foreseeable future since it being useless 10% of the time means the 90% of the time it acts as an additional health state is balanced2 -
You cannot bait out a dead hard if they are smarter than you*.
And yes, if its used at a loop, they will need to drop a pallet for their dead hard to have any real value. If they can use dead hard to keep a pallets standing, you're the one doing somethign wrong.
And so what if they can do it as a hail mary? You know what else is done as a hail mary? Lunging when a pallet is being dropped. Sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesnt. Just like Dead Hard.
"Good survivors will use it to make distance and get to a pallet and drop it to extend the chase"
Just like good killers will use a lunge to close distance if they are dropping one way to shorten the chase. Just like good killers will use a lunge to bait a pallet being dropped that they want gone ASAP.
Works both ways. Want to get rid of dead hard? Get rid of lunges too.
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A lunge is part of the base mechanics of the game. Dead hard is not. End of discussion.
Almost all of the killers on the roster are countered by dead hard for distance - a PERK that you're given for free WHILE being injured, which means you're given the perk for losing in your chase.
A dash is something that you design the base mechanics of the game around. Dead Hard is not a base mechanic, thus, the game is not balanced around survivors having a powerful dash completely for free. It is literally impossible for Dead Hard to NOT be unbalanced.
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Except that lunges used to be smaller and were movementspeed dependend. It's actually Dead Hard that made Lunges a set mechanic. So they are linked. Besides, Dead Hard is part of the game, everyone has access to it. End of discussions.
"Almost all of the killers on the roster are countered by dead hard for distance - a PERK that you're given for free WHILE being injured, which means you're given the perk for losing in your chase."
Mechanics that killers have access to through perks: 25% regression for free that you get for hooking(which you're supposed to do anyway). Aura readings that you get for free while hooking. Aura readings that you get for free when survivors do gens. Instadowns that you get for free by letting survivors unhook teammates.
Then lets add on the VANILLA mechanics that killers have access to that cannot be countered by VANILLA survivor mechanics: Slugging multiple survivors, camping, tunneling, their abilities(which, unlike survivor items, they dont need to refresh).
"It is literally impossible for Dead Hard to NOT be unbalanced."
Well, with your logic: Ruin is not balanced, Pop is not balanced, Make Your Choice is not balanced, killer addons are not balanced. BBQ is not balanced.
The game has been balanced with Dead Hard in mind. Again, Lunges were BALANCED around Dead Hard when Dead Hard was released. Do you want old lunges back? Because old lunges were not able to reach through windows or across fences.
Essentially, all killers were given a basekit Dead Hard to deal with Dead Hard.
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"Besides, Dead Hard is part of the game, everyone has access to it. End of discussions."
Yeah, just like how Prayer Beads was part of the game. Just like how old Omegablink was part of the game. Just like how old Tinkerer instasaw was part of the game. Just like how old Iri head was part of the game. Just like how old BNPs were part of the game. Just like how instaheals were part of the game. Just like how infinites were part of the game. Just like how old DS was part of the game. Just like how old Tinkerer instahatchet was part of the game.
All of the things above were created in a time where the developers lacked an understanding of their game's balance. NONE of these things would've been created today, with the closest thing to this stuff added in modern-day DBD being old Undying which was ######### atrocious. Dead Hard was created during this time (2016-2018) and applies to this. As it literally gives survivors an entirely new mechanic in chase that the game was not designed around (lunges are not a counter to dead hard, dead hard is a free counter to a lunge, which is complete bullshit), it would not have been added today. No risk or condition, extremely high reward.
"Mechanics that killers have access to through perks: 25% regression for free that you get for hooking(which you're supposed to do anyway)"
So...it's free, but then it's not free? Pop rewards you for a hook. I don't see the connection to Dead Hard's condition of being hit by a killer, which is the killer doing their job properly.
"Aura readings that you get for free while hooking"
No, once again, you get rewarded for a hook by BBQ. "For free for hooking" makes no sense at all. You're contradicting yourself.
"cannot be countered by VANILLA survivor mechanics: Slugging multiple survivors,"
Uh, if you don't think you can counter slugging without an anti-slug/healing perk, I'm not sure what to tell you mang. Getting mass slugged is on your team.
"camping, tunneling,"
yep, which is why I also hate camping and tunneling. should not be in the game. both things are, as I said with dead hard, available to do because they weren't prevented by the devs during a time where they lacked an understanding of their game's balance. both of these things are extremely unhealthy and require 0 skill and do not belong in an online pvp game.
"Well, with your logic: Ruin is not balanced, Pop is not balanced, Make Your Choice is not balanced, killer addons are not balanced. BBQ is not balanced."
Incorrect. Ruin rewards gen pressure and can be completely destroyed at any moment in the match. Pop rewards hooks. Make Your Choice is not a perk design I'm a fan of at all, but its effect is not as strong as Dead Hard, thus I just think it's terribly designed rather than unbalanced. However, Make Your Choice still requires you to hook, so it still has a condition that you must fulfill, and actually encourages you to target multiple survivors rather than tunnel, so I'll give it that much credit. Killer basekits are balanced around their addons, as confirmed by the developers, so that's not correct either. BBQ rewards you for getting a hook, once again, and encourages killers to not camp, which promotes very healthy gameplay.
"Lunges were BALANCED around Dead Hard when Dead Hard was released."
And that failed. Lunges do not counter Dead Hard unless it is used improperly.
"Essentially, all killers were given a basekit Dead Hard to deal with Dead Hard."
No, survivors were given a direct counter to lunges AND killer abilities through Dead Hard (by pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, nothing else. How fun is it to make 5 perfect blight rushes, go for a swing, just for them to press a button and completely undo your outplay. Crazy.), which has a massive impact on chase gameplay. You do not design a game around players not having a dodge ability, then add a dodge ability and create nothing that actually counters it. It destroys killer abilities, rewards survivors for getting INJURED (you compare this condition to getting hooks? really?), and completely breaks chases when used properly. It doesn't belong in DBD, sorry man.
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"All of the things above were created in a time where the developers lacked an understanding of their game's balance."
Just like Dead Hard was able to be used mid-air FOR DISTANCE, which, mind you, is no longer possible even though killer kept that ability.
Dead Hard is fine.
"Dead Hard was created during this time (2016-2018) and applies to this."
See the previous statement, where Dead Hard has been adjusted in the following ways: The speed curve has been altered to match the animation(the animation used to finish before Dead Hard was finished, meaning Dead Hard was nerfed mechanically). Removed the distance made mid-air, also nerfing Dead Hard as Dead Harders used to be able to Dead Hard through certain windows mid-air. Windows that a lot of killers are still able to go through mid-air.
Dead Hard is fine.
"So...it's free, but then it's not free? Pop rewards you for a hook. I don't see the connection to Dead Hard's condition of being hit by a killer, which is the killer doing their job properly."
Dead Hard isnt free either, it requires you to be injured. You cannot get injured for free. You literally have to get hit by the killer to make Dead Hard work, which is part of a survivor's job. If you never get hit all game, you're most likely sandbagging your teammates. Prayer beads didnt have a cost of use, there was no penalty. Omega Blink Nurse didnt have a cost, there was no penalty. Dead Hard HAS a cost of being injured. Preferably, survivors dont want to be injured if that option arises. Survivors want to be uninjured over being injured. It's just that in quite a lot of cases, there is no time to heal up if you want to win a game, thus staying injured is more preferable.
"No, once again, you get rewarded for a hook by BBQ. "For free for hooking" makes no sense at all. You're contradicting yourself."
Just like you need to get injured as a surv to use dead hard. Dead Hard doesnt work if you're instadowned, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Bubba, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Plague with Red Vom, Dead Hard doesnt work against a killer that baits it. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Nurse. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Pig, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Wraith, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Demo unless used for side stepping quickly, Dead Hard doesnt work against Trickster, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Blight, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Doctor(you cant do anything for 2.5 seconds after each shock). Let alone that survivors are exhausted after using Dead Hard. For all intents and purposes, it's a 1 time trigger per individual hook. Which is why I compared it to Pop in the first place. Add exhaustion inducing addons or perks in the mix, and they cant even use Dead Hard. So if you consider Dead Hard to be free, even though you're an instadown at that point, I will consider Pop to be free. Being injured is sacrificing a health state for a dash that can be baited. You dont have to do anything special to trigger BBQ or Pop after hooking a survivor, it literally comes for free while you hook someone.
"Uh, if you don't think you can counter slugging without an anti-slug/healing perk, I'm not sure what to tell you mang. Getting mass slugged is on your team."
Nope, plenty of examples where mass-slugging just happens out of killer momentum being able to chain together. Nurse Infectious Fright slugfests are pretty much the most common Nurse encounter. Nothing you can do about that as a survivor. You NEED anti-slug perks to counter that, no vanilla mechanics to do so.
"yep, which is why I also hate camping and tunneling. should not be in the game. both things are, as I said with dead hard, available to do because they weren't prevented by the devs during a time where they lacked an understanding of their game's balance. both of these things are extremely unhealthy and require 0 skill and do not belong in an online pvp game."
Except that like Dead Hard, sometimes you need to camp, sometimes you need to tunnel. You cannot nerf these 3 things in the game, unless you want to nerf lunges, nerf gens to death and give all killers access to instadowns in a vanilla way. Which gives more reason to keep dead hard in the game, which gives more reason for people to find ways to rush gens, which gives more reason to camp and tunnel. You can dislike these things, that doesnt mean they're broken. Worst case scenario, you could add a punishment to them, but that doesnt really solve the issue you personally are having.
"Incorrect. Ruin rewards gen pressure and can be completely destroyed at any moment in the match. Pop rewards hooks. Make Your Choice is not a perk design I'm a fan of at all, but its effect is not as strong as Dead Hard"
Lets go back to what you stated before: "Dead Hard is not a base mechanic, thus, the game is not balanced around survivors having a powerful dash completely for free." Pop is not a base mechanic that you completely get for free. As for "rewards the use of vanilla mechanic X", let me remind you that you're not really losing a chase as a survivor for getting injured. The game is literally designed to guarantuee hits for killers. Survivors cannot remain uninjured all game as a whole. So getting hit is not "losing the chase". You "lose" a chase based on the time it takes to get a hit. Dead Hard rewards survivors for distracting the killer succesfully, not for losing a chase. Otherwise I could say that any instadown in the game rewards the killer for not being able to keep long chases. Pop punishes survivors for not succesfully finishing a gen/pushing the wrong gen. Dead Hard punishes a killer for not succesfully ending a chase/unsuccesfully baiting Dead Hard. Both can really hurt the game for the opponent if they are used in an optimal way, both are really annoying to deal with, but both can be baited quite heavily and barely have any impact if done so. I have sometimes left gens on 50% on purpose, knowing that the killer would waste his Pop on that, while I finished a gen that was at 70% 16 meters further. Sure, 20 seconds of my time were "wasted" on that 50% gen, but in exchange, another, more crucial generator was finished. Same logic can be applied to dead hard. I've forced survivors to dead hard, then leave the chase, only to come back 30 seconds later while they were distracted and working on a generator in a dead zone, without dead hard in their arsenal, they were just easy pickings.
Yes, the perk is annoying to deal with, but annoying isnt really a reason to nerf something. I rather see more exhaustion inducing perks(Mindbreaker is really nice against Dead Hard. They have to stand still or walk for 5 full seconds if they want their Dead Hard back. If they are already injured, they wont have enough time to remove their exhaustion). Preferably a hex that adds exhaustion on survivors for 90 seconds if triggered. But other than that? Exhaustion perks are fine. I'd argue that Sprintburst is far more broken than Dead Hard. Anything Dead Hard can do, Sprintburst can do better.
"Killer basekits are balanced around their addons, as confirmed by the developers, so that's not correct either." Again, my point was that because it's not a basemechanic, it's a thing they get for free just by applying it.
"And that failed. Lunges do not counter Dead Hard unless it is used improperly."
If you're touching a survivor, you can start a lunge, and still hit a dead harding survivor. So yes, I'd argue they DO counter dead hard. In the same way that Dead Hard counters a lunge. But if you're out in the open, the best Dead Hard will do is buy you 2 more seconds before you're downed. Because Dead Hard slows you down at the end. It's curve goes from 250% MS, to 200% MS, and at the end drops to 80% MS(walk speed) for a few frames. Meaning survivors need to start running again, and running itself is a speedcurve. This is why you cannot Dead Hard and speed vault a window if you dead hard too late. You need some distance to go back to 100%.
"by pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, nothing else. How fun is it to make 5 perfect blight rushes, go for a swing, just for them to press a button and completely undo your outplay. Crazy.)"
Ah, yes, as if Blight didnt close distance regardless of Dead Hard, as if Blight doesnt regain tokens back quick enough to close that distance and still get a hit. All Dead Hard does against most killers, is extend the chase with a few seconds. In the case that Dead Hard would extend the chase massively, it might not be worth to keep on chasing. Decisions are a big part of being a killer. Exhaustion remains for 40 seconds if they stop running(again, if you run Mindbreaker, they literally cannot work on a gen for 40 seconds if they want Dead Hard back), you could return within 30 seconds and catch them off-guard, in an area they didnt want to be, not having access to their perk. Just by 1 single decision you make. Imagine that, you get downed very quickly because the killer made 1 SINGLE DECISION, nothing else. How fun is it to loop a killer well into a good bait and keeping looping momentum, only for them to deny your momentum by leaving you alone for 30 seconds, making it feel safe enough to work on a gen, only for them to down you quickly while they have the upperhand.
Again, Dead Hard is fine.
"You do not design a game around players not having a dodge ability, then add a dodge ability and create nothing that actually counters it."
You do realize pallet vacuums were essentially what Dead Hard is? The game was balanced with pallet vacuums in mind. Later they removed it, because having both dead hard AND pallet vacuums was a bit too much. Dead Hard has plenty of counters. Again, Mindbreaker is your best friend.
"rewards survivors for getting INJURED (you compare this condition to getting hooks? really?)"
ahem Rewards survivors for DISTRACTING THE KILLER. Which, yes, is compared to hooks. It's part of the survivor's job to distract the killer and be chased. If being chased wasnt part of the survivors' job, there would be no looping mechanics at all.
"It destroys killer abilities"
Inconveniences killer abilities, but yes, just like all other exhaustion perks. Let alone that killer abilities tend to inconvenience survivors too. I mean, literally, try avoid getting hit during an entire chase. Seriously, try it. I doubt you'll be able to avoid getting hit at all, meaning all you can do as a survivor is lose a chase. There is no "winning" a chase if the killer keeps chasing. All there is, is distracting the killer away from your teammates.
"and completely breaks chases when used properly. It doesn't belong in DBD, sorry man."
I mean, killer abilities being used properly can completely prevent chases. Wraith can literally down you before you can loop him. Does that mean Wraith doesnt belong in DBD? Billy can bodyblock you in a corner and down you without chasing you, does that mean Billy doesnt belong in DBD either? Huntress can do damage to you across the map without ever chasing you, does that mean Huntress doesnt belong there either? Doc can prevent you from dropping pallets and vaulting windows, Trickster can use his knives to down you quickly after already hitting you, Trapper can literally down you by placing down a trap and ignoring it all game, Hag can prevent people from unhooking without mass slugging. I can go on. There are many, MANY killer mechanics in the game that are much more powerful than Dead Hard is, and much more uncounterable than Dead Hard. Yes, Dead Hard can be really annoying to deal with, but it does belong in DBD. It's been in the game for over 4 years. It has been a meta perk for 4 years. The devs definitely have balanced killers with Dead Hard in mind. They have balanced perks with dead hard in mind. They cannot balance YOUR decision to keep chasing a survivor that used Dead Hard to reach an unused area of the map. That mistake is on you. Sometimes it's best to quit a chase and interrupt other survivors and push them into area's the previous survivor has used for easy downs, rather than chasing the same survivor for another 30 seconds. If Dead Hard is one of your most hated perks, start running Mindbreaker. If you think it's so broken and needs a counter, use a perk that actively counters it. If you dont think Mindbreaker is worth a slot, you're simply agreeing that Dead Hard isnt as much as an issue as you claim it to be.
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See the previous statement, where Dead Hard has been adjusted in the following ways: The speed curve has been altered to match the animation(the animation used to finish before Dead Hard was finished, meaning Dead Hard was nerfed mechanically). Removed the distance made mid-air, also nerfing Dead Hard as Dead Harders used to be able to Dead Hard through certain windows mid-air. Windows that a lot of killers are still able to go through mid-air.
And it's still problematic, so that didn't fix the perk at all.
Dead Hard isnt free either, it requires you to be injured. You cannot get injured for free.
Yes you can. You can literally just run up to the killer and get hit for free. Being injured is NOT something you work for, unlike a hook. A hook requires you to chase a survivor, successfully down them, and place them on a hook. You cannot just get a free hook. Being injured is something the KILLER works for, not you. This makes LITERALLY no sense.
Dead Hard HAS a cost of being injured.
No, no it doesn't. There is no cost at all. You just have it. NO MITHER has the cost of being injured because it literally forces you to be injured, but Dead Hard has 0 cost. It is a straight benefit from basekit survivor. I don't know why you're trying to spin being injured as something that you have to work for. Do you even believe in your argument?
Just like you need to get injured as a surv to use dead hard.
...something the killer has to do. You do NOTHING to get injured. I think you need to give up on this one.
Dead Hard doesnt work if you're instadowned, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Bubba, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Plague with Red Vom, Dead Hard doesnt work against a killer that baits it. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Nurse. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Pig, Dead Hard doesn't work against a Wraith, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Demo unless used for side stepping quickly, Dead Hard doesn't work against Trickster, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Blight, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Doctor(you cant do anything for 2.5 seconds after each shock).
Dead Hard is an extremely effective perk against literally every killer you've listed. Dead Hard is Nurse's most hated perk. Pig has ZERO counter to dead hard - she's an M1 killer. Dead Hard's I-frames literally prevent you from getting hit by 3-4 of the trickster's knives. You dead hard along a wall, turn the corner, all his knives miss and he's slowed down because you pressed a button. Doctor HATES dead hard. Imagine looping a pallet, and Doctor shocks, shocks, shocks, times it perfectly every time, you continue looping and are about to go down after his next shock, as he's close enough to shock and hit you. He shocks, you press a button on your keyboard to dead hard the shock, drop the pallet, and ALL of the work that he just did to down you was undone because you pressed a button and did NOTHING to earn it. Great game design. The game is definitely designed around that.
Being injured is sacrificing a health state for a dash that can be baited
You cannot bait dead hard for distance to a pallet or window. It is completely uncounterable unless you have range and they bottleneck themselves/lock themselves in animation. This is why against killers like Huntress, Trickster, or Slinger, instead of dead harding one of their hits, which you can still very well do, you can also just dead hard into a structure, break LOS, and extend the chase, denying them of a potential down 30 seconds earlier because you pressed a button.
Nope, plenty of examples where mass-slugging just happens out of killer momentum being able to chain together. Nurse Infectious Fright slugfests are pretty much the most common Nurse encounter. Nothing you can do about that as a survivor. You NEED anti-slug perks to counter that, no vanilla mechanics to do so.
Of course, that's probably the strongest pub build you can run. I cannot deny that 99% of teams will go down to this because this is the most extreme form of slugging that you could present to me. That's a nurse argument, not a slug argument.
Except that like Dead Hard, sometimes you need to camp, sometimes you need to tunnel. You cannot nerf these 3 things in the game, unless you want to nerf lunges, nerf gens to death and give all killers access to instadowns in a vanilla way. Which gives more reason to keep dead hard in the game, which gives more reason for people to find ways to rush gens, which gives more reason to camp and tunnel. You can dislike these things, that doesnt mean they're broken. Worst case scenario, you could add a punishment to them, but that doesnt really solve the issue you personally are having.
Ah yes, this game's playerbase sure does love being camped and tunneled. Great game design. Totally just my own personal issue.
Didn't mention nerfing. I wouldn't remove camping or tunneling without incentivizing killers to do the opposite of that through a new mechanic. I would much rather play survivor games against killers that aren't camping or tunneling me at the cost of some new strength for killer. Pretty tired of that #########.
let me remind you that you're not really losing a chase as a survivor for getting injured. The game is literally designed to guarantuee hits for killers. Survivors cannot remain uninjured all game as a whole. So getting hit is not "losing the chase". You "lose" a chase based on the time it takes to get a hit.
Yes, this is all true, and I apologize if my wording suggested otherwise. However..
Dead Hard rewards survivors for distracting the killer succesfully, not for losing a chase.
Distracting the killer successfully would be a condition like "Chasing with the killer for x amount of seconds while injured activates Dead Hard." THAT would be a proper condition that REWARDS you for performing well in your chases and *succesfully distracting the killer.* Being injured does not fit that at all. Again, you have to drop this part of your argument. This makes literally no sense.
. Otherwise I could say that any instadown in the game rewards the killer for not being able to keep long chases.
Depends on which it is and what the conditions are + how strong it is.
Dead Hard punishes a killer for not succesfully ending a chase/unsuccesfully baiting Dead Hard.
You're punished for injuring survivors. You admit this by arguing that DH does not work if you're one-shot. You're not punished for "unsuccessfully baiting Dead Hard." You cannot bait a DH for distance. They will always get value out of it.
I have sometimes left gens on 50% on purpose, knowing that the killer would waste his Pop on that, while I finished a gen that was at 70% 16 meters further. Sure, 20 seconds of my time were "wasted" on that 50% gen, but in exchange, another, more crucial generator was finished.
Smart strategy as long as that time spent on the other generator doesn't cost you. I applaud you for your strategic thinking.
Same logic can be applied to dead hard. I've forced survivors to dead hard, then leave the chase, only to come back 30 seconds later while they were distracted and working on a generator in a dead zone, without dead hard in their arsenal, they were just easy pickings.
Mmm, so a perk that you have to do nothing to obtain and press a button to get value out of can delay your death by 30+ seconds OR cost the killer that entire chase that they HAVE to give up because...you pressed a button, even though they were in distance to finish the chase.
You're also describing best case scenario here, which is strange. If someone DH's, I leave them (again, wasting a TON of my time because they outskilled me with an E press), I come back...they could've very well left, healed up by now, found a teammate, start working on a gen with a pallet/window loop nearby, and if none of these things apply, at the very least, they're gonna be reacting to my terror radius. You don't just leave a survivor for 30 seconds, come back, and they just continue working on the gen in a deadzone, allowing you to down them. If they simply just hold W to the corner, they can waste 15 more seconds. By the time you down them, pick up, drag to hook, and hook them, that survivor has effectively wasted a minute of your time because they pressed a button. Not sure if you know this or not, but 60 seconds is an insane amount of time.
So, let's entertain the scenario that, after leaving that survivor, you DON"T return to them, and go to pressure other survivors. First of all, as the survivor, you win that entire chase because of Dead Hard. The killer now has zero map pressure, and they got absolutely nothing out of that chase with you. Not only did the killer just waste their time chasing you for it to not lead to a down because of Dead Hard, but they also have to waste time going back int the map, finding more survivors, THEN chasing them.
In either scenario, the killer has negative map pressure because...you pressed a button.
If you're touching a survivor, you can start a lunge, and still hit a dead harding survivor. So yes, I'd argue they DO counter dead hard.
Please, go ask to 1v1 with one of the comp players as Pig. Tell them to play it as if it's a normal, solo queue match where you have to conserve resources. Throw some Bills and Clauds in there to work on gens, if you'd like. Let them run DH, and show me that big Dead Hard counter that Pig apparently has with her amazing M1 lunge. I would love to see it.
Ah, yes, as if Blight didnt close distance regardless of Dead Hard, as if Blight doesnt regain tokens back quick enough to close that distance and still get a hit. All Dead Hard does against most killers, is extend the chase with a few seconds.
It extends the chase by a few seconds, but your counterplay to it is wasting 30+ seconds to trick the survivor into working on a gen in a deadzone, downing them, then dragging them to a hook a minute after you would've done it if it had not been for them pressing E on their keyboard. Right.
Imagine that, you get downed very quickly because the killer made 1 SINGLE DECISION, nothing else. How fun is it to loop a killer well into a good bait and keeping looping momentum, only for them to deny your momentum by leaving you alone for 30 seconds, making it feel safe enough to work on a gen, only for them to down you quickly while they have the upperhand.
Huh? The killer having to leave you for 30+ seconds, coming back, downing and hooking you a minute later than you would've been if you hadn't been running Dead Hard somehow denies your momentum? Uhhh...in a 1v1 scenario...sure? DBD is a 1v4 game though mang. The killer taking 30+ seconds to down you because you pressed E is extremely good momentum. There is net time loss for the killer in this situation. This forced comparison of the killer making the decision to abandon you and then reengage does not equate at all to dead hard, lol. I don't really think this argument is working very well. I'm not convinced at all.
You do realize pallet vacuums were essentially what Dead Hard is?
......yeah, and everybody loved those. just like everybody loves dead hard. lol.
I'd think if you'd wanna prove something is healthy for the game, you wouldn't say it's basically the same thing as another extremely awful mechanic that was removed for being busted.
Again, Mindbreaker is your best friend.
just like spirit is fine because iron will, and NOED is fine because of small game. /s
as much as I actually really like mindbreaker because it's a simple, mid-strength passive perk, and do run it, no. I don't agree.
It's part of the survivor's job to distract the killer and be chased.
again, this would make sense if dead hard activated after X amount of time in chase. currently, it just activates even for shitter blendettes that get hit for hiding in a tiny bush. that blendette isn't being rewarded for anything lol.
Does that mean Wraith doesnt belong in DBD? Billy can bodyblock you in a corner and down you without chasing you, does that mean Billy doesnt belong in DBD either? Huntress can do damage to you across the map without ever chasing you, does that mean Huntress doesnt belong there either? Doc can prevent you from dropping pallets and vaulting windows, Trickster can use his knives to down you quickly after already hitting you, Trapper can literally down you by placing down a trap and ignoring it all game,
all of these things that you've listed are either missplays on the survivor part or outplays on the killer part. it's also a little interesting that we're comparing a little survivor perk to entire killer power capabilities.
They cannot balance YOUR decision to keep chasing a survivor that used Dead Hard to reach an unused area of the map. That mistake is on you.
it's not my mistake for injuring a survivor. this makes no sense. i injure someone as pig, recover fast with stbfl (a perk that I have to actively work for in order to be effective), am back on them again, about to lunge at them at a pallet, and they dead hard and stun me. woops, outplayed. guess that was my bad that they have a dash for free. should've known that! don't worry, I can bait it later for the exact same result, I just won't get stunned that time because I know that they're literally invincible for no reason.
If you think it's so broken and needs a counter, use a perk that actively counters it.
when i think things are broken and uncounterable, the last thing I think is acceptable is being forced to run perks just to make up for bad game design. running old enduring for old DS didn't suddenly make DS ok.
It has been a meta perk for 4 years.
decisive strike was meta for 4 years too.
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How is it fair for Wraith to dead hard multiple times a chase without perks? Spamming a free long reach lunge. His lunge is literally uncounterable, can swing directly through pallets. This shouldn't be a thing.
Dead Hard is nothing.
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There is a counter to dead hard, its called LAG and killer priority. And survivors have 'second chance' perks because they....uh...die and are removed from the game. Unlike killers that are guaranteed chances until the game ends.
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Like all exhaustion perks, Dead Hard is designed to extend chases and provide survivors a small safety net that can let them loop for just a little longer to waste a killer's time. Killers should be winning chases they commit to 100% of the time. They're faster, can hit through vault spots and can attempt to mind-game survivors to get them to lose; this isn't even to mention some killer powers are great chase abilities, looping gives the survivors a way to extend the chase long enough for their survivors to complete objectives. Sprint Burst is no worse than Dead Hard, allowing survivors to get a massive head start on killers the moment they're seen, Lithe allows you to abuse common looping spots to gain a boost to extend a chase even further, Balanced Landing can let survivors utilize drops to their advantage where they would normally be at a disadvantage.
You need to either bait it out, take it, or use addons like Huntress' Venomous Concoction to counter it and to be honest it's fine the way it is. It's best utilized as a means for survivors to get to a pallet or vault spot they might not have been able to in an effort to extend the chase a little bit.
Fortunately, from my experience it's never a good perk for trying to take hits as this game's net-code can often work against the survivor.
If a survivor is giving you that much trouble stop chasing them and go for someone else. It is not the fault of Dead Hard that you cannot win the chases you start.
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I can see the developers eventually nerfing it by removing the invulnerability frames, even though it is best used and most complained about when used for distance.
The problem is, the invulnerability frames is the only thing the Devs can really nerf without completely reworking the perk. And I don't see them doing that.
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Yes because as a solo survivor i have to do all the gens, get unhooks and find all totems on a map like lery's or Midwich. Sure bud.
NoED isn't op. It just makes bad players reliant on it and unable to actually "get gud"
Its an unhealthy perk. Killer is the easiest it's ever been right now. As a killer main is gross seeing so many entitled killers wanting a free 4k and complaining 24/7 and shooting down any survivor grievances
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Dead Hard is okay, I'd say it needs help. You should be exhausted on the ground so often
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I want all totems to be easy to find when playing in Soloq mode, is that what you just said?
On a serious note, well that is the POINT of playing in SoloQ, you risk depending more on your teammates and without communication, If the bones are so much a problem for you, you are free to play in SWF to have a more organized team.
And yes, NOED is not OP but it needs a change because it rewards bad killers.
However, as I already said, you cannot compare a change between NOED and DH since they are 2 very different things.
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Oh, keep making threads and comments with "2000" hours of experience.
Good boy.
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