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Why do we excuse Nurse?
A high skill floor with a near game-breaking skill ceiling is bad game balance and bad game design. That's really not debatable.
I understand that Nurse players have been honing in their craft for years and changing the way she plays would really screw Nurse mains over, but why is this allowed to go on when it's a seemingly glaring issue with balance?
Edit: high skill floor, not low skill floor
Comments
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A rock bottom skill floor
Have you actually played Nurse?
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Did you have a fun game against a nurse a few min ago? I take it?
I don't understand what's the issue.
You want her removed or ... ?
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Yes...
Have you never faced a baby Nurse?
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Yes. Everyone escapes.
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She 100% should be changed, because she is outdated and should have never been in the game like this in the first place.
But this will never happen.
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Because even though you're never going to play against those types of teams in pubs, Nurse is really the only killer that can keep up with absolute top level survivors. It is both funny and sad that the only killer that can keep up at that level is one that denies every mechanic the survivors have in a chase.
There's also the excuse that she's hard to learn so its OK. I have zero respect for pub stomping nurses though.
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That's my point. Nurse is the hardest killer for new players... But the best players with Nurse stomp... Not good balance.
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Even the best nurse players have their losses.
The problem becomes when matchmaking pairs an experienced Nurse with a new survivor, but that is a matchmaking issue at that point.
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He was pointing out your mistake in phrasing 'low skill floor'.
You meant high skill floor. That's what you're trying to say.
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There is no difference between a god Nurse or a god Spirit
but there is a great deal of difference between a baby Nurse and a baby Spirit
that's why she's excused for the most part
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Will edit, you both are correct!
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Yeah, that confused the hell out of me. What confuses me more is how people can get those two mixed up.
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It shouldn’t be excused. An experienced Nurse player will win 95% of their games because she doesn’t play DBD. She plays her own game. Despite how hard she is to play, she is still completely broken because her power is outdated and made when there was true infinities in the game. She has little to no counterplay except break LOS and hope she screws up.
But it’s just Nurse and we’ve all learned to deal with it. Even when I die to a good Nurse I’m always like “Well...that’s just Nurse for ya.”
Her power is fundamentally flawed and doesn’t follow the DBD gameplay, she’s always gonna be broken and it is what it is. At least she’s a broken killer who not everyone can pick up and play :/
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Not enough sleep :)
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Nurse is very outdated
If im being honest i dont really like nurse, i like playing dead by daylight, not the nurse game.
People usually excuse nurse because she is really hard to be great at, but there is no doubt that a god nurse is uncounterable in a regular game, which is bad game design.
I doubt she will ever be changed as she is so classic now, but we'll see
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Nurse is not really a problem. Honestly a blessing. One of the few killer that demands you to change your playstyle
If you want to beat a top level nurse you need to be a top level survivor.
Problem lies more with matchmaking who puts lower level players against these top level nurses
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For the record, Nurse is not "excused". She has a unique counterplay that survivors are not used to and refuse to learn or consider. A lot of this could be solved by people playing her, understanding how she works, and then trying out counters they came up with until they figured out how to counter her. You know, how experts recommend (and do).
Unfortunately, I know for a fact that will never happen, so what's going to happen instead is we're going to get more of these threads until she's as weak as Wraith was on release.
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nurse is easily one of the most balanced killers in the game
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Why bother complaining about nurse?
Normal nurse players are no issue and god nurses are so rare that you'll never see them. Especially once the mmr drops.
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When the only game mode aside from custom lobbies are ranked matches, balance matters.
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Nurse has the lowest kill rate of all killers. So balance wise she would need a buff.
Just because now you could face a god nurse once per year, doesn't mean that she needs a nerf.
Wait for the new mmr and 4 man SWF will be the only ones getting matched against god nurses.
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The same reason we excuse SWF.
Funny thing is if you talk about SWF you'll be met with the response of not everyone who plays SWF is that good so it's not fair to nerf them, however if you put that same argument saying not everyone who plays spirit or nurse is that good people don't seem to agree with that logic. Double standards are quite amusing sometimes.
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Yes, the double standards are truly amazing!
Same thing happens when someone posts videos about gen rushes. People dismiss them, because not everyone plays like this.
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Pretty much:
Comms are overpowered - yeah but everyone doesn't use comms in SWF.
Gens fly to fast because they split up on gens and be super efficient - yeah but some of us are just messing around with our friends not taking it seriously.
So many arguments against balancing SWF gets dismissed by this kind of logic yet if you apply the same to killers suddenly the same logic doesn't make sense anymore.
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Basically this.
I'm still trying to play nurse well. She's not simple at all. Someone has to invest hundreds and hundreds of hours just to get used to her ability. And, personally, I think that if someone has mastered her, I think they deserve to win most matches. Having good and powerful, but difficult killers is a good thing, and good game design
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People excuse Nurse because they're arrogant and convinced she's harder than she really is. In reality, you don't need to be a god Nurse to steamroll nearly every team you go against, because on NA and EU servers most teams are shite even on peak hours and will be caught by basic knowledge of blinking and reasonable accuracy.
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Yeah, a rock bottom skill floor is Clown or Freddy. Their entire playstyle is "throw/place gas/snare and walk backwards round loop" or just Trapless Trapper.
Nurse is one of the few things in this game that takes actual mechanical skill and not just basic knowledge.
That said I think the logic of "this player is good, and the killer they're playing is good, therefore they should win every time" is a bad design mindset. It's the logic that gave us a killer like Deathslinger or Spirit that more or less remove survivor agency entirely.
I don't hate these killers (love their designs) but I don't like playing against them because it feels like all the skill I've built up over the years doesn't matter if the killer knows how to just insta shot as slinger or short phase as spirit.
I think if I played against actually good Nurse more I'd ######### HATE her. But she's so rare that I don't think she's a problem at all. Same with the Sweat Squads. I've played against maybe 3 in the last 2 months.
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In tru3s words whenever spirit or nurse are brought up. "But what about 4man swf they beat every killer but nurse and spirit at the highest level". Which he aint wrong. Im all for reworking her if solos ever get put to swf level and we can rebalance accordingly. Rn im fine with her because of a high skill floor.
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Not at all what i experience as solo survivor.
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I've been saying this, since she came out. She will stay broken until she gets reworked completely. Just because Nurse requires higher skill to play, that doesn't justify her being completely broken. But hey there are still people who believe her base power is fine, so yeah..
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I understand that its hard to balance around SWF while solo players exist. I also understand that people want to play with their friends and shouldn´t be punished for it. BUT neither should killers, for being matched against coordinated SWF teams.
In the end, those coordinated SWF teams will only get matched against god nurses, spirits and streamers that play for a living. In other words, those that deserve each other.
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This^^^^
Nurse is really not as hard as people make her to be. I'd hate it if they reworked her because her unique power is the only thing I'm interested in dbd, but man do i hate when people say "she can because she's hard" no she's NOT
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Because she is so difficult to learn and master, exceptional Nurse players are pretty rare. Is nurse broken? Maybe, maybe not. But when there are other killers which can achieve similar results with much less effort, they will be much more frequently encountered and complained about.
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I honestly have no idea why she's excused. "X is fine being this good because X is hard to play" is NOT good game design. Sick of hearing this, same thing I always heard about Akuma in Tekken 7. "Nah bro, his damage is fine because his combos are hard to execute :)" execution is only a small investment of your time, after that it's just muscle memory and you're doing it without thinking.
This is what Nurse is in DbD. You spend a small number of hours learning how she works (and it really is only a small number, she's not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be), then after that you win 95% of your games without breaking a sweat because she's not balanced around DbD, she's an entirely different thing.
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I don't like these arguments that go like "Nurse is the only killer that can keep up with really good swf's'".
Really good swf's maybe play in tournaments, but really good swf's are very rare in your usual dbd sessions.
God Nurses are also very rare, but even if i play with my very experienced friends in a swf it's usually gg against a good Nurse with meta perks and add-ons. That's not my definition of "keeping up with".
She's also not as hard as people say, i don't play her regularly because i hate the fatigue but i started to kill people after my 2nd match with her. Sure you need to put some hours into her to win against very good survivors who know the counterplay, but even the counterplay is not that strong anymore once the Nurse realizes patterns or comes close enough .
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Really good swf's maybe play in tournaments, but really good swf's are very rare in your usual dbd sessions.
God Nurses are also very rare, but even if i play with my very experienced friends in a swf it's usually gg against a good Nurse with meta perks and add-ons. That's not my definition of "keeping up with".
So, to be clear, even though they're both rare, only one definitely needs to be nerfed because you and your experienced friends can't win against her. Do I have that right?
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Because you're confusing "terrible" with "mediocre".
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Exactly if MMR ever kicks in that's pretty much going to be what they go against every match.
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No, I don't think Nurse needs any changes. She is almost inarguably the most unique killer in the game, her only competitors being Hag and Old Freddy, and has a sufficient level of strength for how many drawbacks her power has and how difficult she is to play. People like to underplay how hard it is to play Nurse just as they pretend that Clown takes no skill to play, or that Deathslinger is easy to play, or that Pyramid Head or Twins are easy to play. It's a mixture of wanting an excuse for losing to these killers, and not playing these killers - and kind of just hostility against people that play these killers. Of course Nurse is going to look easy if you only go against good Nurses, or if you play against bad survivors that don't know how to play against Nurse.
Not only that, but Nurse actually has unique and measurable counterplay, unlike Spirit. Blocking line of sight, doubling back, forcing the Nurse to make a read - no matter how good the Nurse player is, they can't predict what you're going to do 100% of the time unless you're extremely predictable. And missing that first blink usually leads to having to fatigue and wait for your charges to come back, which gives the survivor time to make distance.
Nurse gets a pass because of how difficult she is to play, and that counterplay exists against her. Of course, she is still the strongest killer in the game, should always be the strongest killer in the game, and will always be the strongest killer in the game. This is not a problem - she is as strong as she is difficult. Rewarding players for their hundreds of hours skill and effort put into learning a killer is a good thing. A god Nurse will probably always win, and at that point, someone who's spent what must be months learning the ins-and-outs of the hardest killer to play with (arguably) the highest skill ceiling should be winning most of their games.
Matches against the Nurse aren't impossible. Matches against God Nurses are very close to impossible for an average survivor team, but these God Nurses are about as rare as true tournament SWF. If one side is fine, then so is the other.
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I don't understand your logic in all honesty...What do you want exactly?Facing a god nurse and 4 escape??
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To be honest that happens alot to me. Maybe its because english isnt my first languade and i always have to think about it even when i am still writing, so it causes me to mess up sometimes.
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Yeah give survivors more weak killers and then they can loop him forever. I am glad Nurse is part of family.
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You used none of those words in your original statement
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She does break the rules of the game. The god ones are rare. But there's not enough active criticizim and nerfing her again would likely be terribly difficult.
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She does break the rules of the game.
No, she doesn't. You've just been led to believe every killer should be counterable in the exact same way no matter what.
This is why killers can't really have innovative designs. Every killer has to be designed around the fact that survivors only know how to use one strategy and refuse to try anything else.
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Most killers are weak and destroying by good survivors.
There is strong only 3 killers: Spirit, Nurse and Blight.
Spirit needs some changes because she is unfairly has not any counterplay. But Blight and Nurse both have counterplays and you can defeat them.
Imagine ask nerf for Nurse or Blight wow!!!!
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She ignores pallets, windows, and walls so when playing Nurse she changes the rules. And you'll have to break LOS and to the weirdest moments. She does break the rules but you have a chance against her and counterplay.
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She changes the way you're used to playing, which is how every killer should work (in theory). They should all have different counters, to make the game significantly different if you're playing against different killers. In practice, nearly every killer can be countered by doing the same thing. The ones that aren't are complained about until they're nerfed into the ground, so that survivor gameplay remains unchanged.
Meanwhile, killer gameplay is boring as hell, because no matter which killer you choose (apart from the ones that survivors complain about), survivors are only ever going to do one thing, which counters you every single time.
Can you imagine if other games were like this? If, no matter which character you picked, no matter what their powers were, you'd be stuck doing the exact same thing if you were playing against/as any other character? Sounds boring.
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I enjoy loosing against a god nurse. It does happen one every 500 survivor games maybe and I just appreciate how good the player is with this killer. I know there is counterplay to nurse but i cant learn it because there are few nurses around.
I dont enjoy being stomped by a Meta spirit because its not that much work you have to put into winning.
I dont enjoy being stomped by a 4 man squad that does 5 gens in 5 minutes and eveyone leaves with 10-15k bp because doing gens fast is also not super hard.
Thats why people complain about spirits and SWF (it feels bad to lose against)
and why people dont complain about nurse that much. (people have 9 baby nurses that cant do anything before facing a good one)
Good nurses are respected because of the work they put into the character. Especially console nurses
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As a Nurse main, she's fine. She has the highest skill cap in the game to the point that the only way a Nurse can win is if she outskills the team. It's not a Spirit situation.
It's not a "glaring issue with balance" at all. In fact, I'd argue that she's the most balanced killer in the game, as she's only as good as the person playing her.
I get that she isn't fun to go against for most, but she still has counters, so I don't see an issue.
Also, they won't change Nurse. They know there would be huge backlash from the community. Every Nurse main would likely quit or switch to survivor, adding to the queue times that are already far too long. Every influential content creator would be pissed too, which will REALLY hurt the game in the long run, as most people join because of content creators. Ayrun, Ussylis, Ardetha, Rayoxium, Umbra, etc., some of the most influential content creators, would be talking about it in their videos, and this might drive new players away. The latter three might quit. Well, probably not Umbra, but Ardetha and Rayoxium might.
Not to mention the fact that changing Nurse is just a massive ######### YOU to anyone who bothered learning her.
They literally can't change her without an extremely unfavorable outcome for them, so they won't change her. You might as well not even ask because they won't change her. BHVR might be stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.
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