50% louder than 0% is still zero.
Stridor makes regular breathing 25% louder and grunts of pain 50% louder. Purple Iron Will cuts grunts of pain down to 0%. I know what they mean, but it irritates me that the description for Stridor is improperly worded. Multiplying zero by any number is still going to be zero.
discuss.
Comments
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Oh my ######### God.
How do people still not get this?
Things in this game stack ADDITIVELY, not MULTIPLICATIVELY.
Yes, 0x50 is still 0, but 0+50 is 50.
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Well if it’s multiplied and the survivor doesn’t have Iron Will, they will have a 100x50=5000% grunts of pain. You’ll be able to literally hear them from the other side of Mother’s Dwelling if that was the case.
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yeah I was going to say. 50 + 0=50
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Big Brain
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This is the most important conversation I've ever seen.
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There’s no need to be rude.
As I plainly said, I “get” what they mean, but that isn’t what the description says. 25% louder than 0% is still zero. It’s simply improperly phrased.
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Sorry about the rudeness, but I'm getting sick of this argument to nerf Stridor. Instead of trying to justify it, like, this makes more sense, just give your idea for the nerf.
Making things stack in a multiplicative way would require the entire game to change.
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It's not 50% louder than 0, it's 50% louder than 100. Iron Will takes away 100 points of volume, Stridor adds 50 points, No Mither takes away 100 points, and so on and so forth.
Edit: Hang on, No Mither takes away 50 points, not 100, what the hells am I on about
Post edited by MadLordJack on6 -
No, because 100 is a number that you can cut in half and add to it. You can’t cut 0 in half.
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You're assuming iron will calculates before stridor, which would make the wording of stridor wrong but both perks are calculating at the same time on the number that is a survivors noise. Therefore the wording is fine.
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How should it be phrased to avoid confusion in the future?
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I didn’t say anything about a nerf, I’m saying that if they want perks to have a specific effect then they ahould be more precise in their terminology.
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100%-100%=0% 0%+ 50%=50%. We have now cleared this up.
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But it's perfectly specific enough if you know how things stack.
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Somethings are multiplicative and those are usually decreases like iron will.
However something are additive and those are usually increases like Stridor.
Standard order of operations says multiplicative go first then additives.
So this is 100 X 0 = 0
Then its 0 + 50 = 50.
Or 100 X 0 + 50 = 50
I do however agree that what is additive and what is multiplicative needs to be labeled better to avoid this confusion.
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I... i... sigh
default is 100%
Iron Will does - 100%
Stridor does + 50%
100 -100 + 50 = 50
So 50% volume. Done.
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Nope. The problem is that they’re using percentages. Percentage of what? If something is at zero you can’t just “add” 50%. Likewise, if you increase volume as Stridor does and then cut it by 100% then that is also 0, too. They really need to cut out the percentage crap because none of it makes any sense mathematically. You’re left to fill in blanks. Again, I know what they mean. I understand what they mean. I really do. But they’d be better off just giving us concrete numbers to work with. Just word it as points instead of a percentage. “ Stridor adds 50 points to grunts of pain”. Iron Will subtracts 100 points”. Done.
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You even said it yourself…. “Regular breathing and grunts”. That’s not exactly 0%.
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Beat me to it.
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From the description for Iron Will:
“You are able to concentrate and enter a meditative-like state to numb some pain.
When injured, Grunts of Pain are reduced by 50/75/100 %”
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Your doing the math wrong.
Normal Injury Sounds are 100%
Iron Will Subtracts 100%
Stridor Adds 50%
100% - 100% + 50% = 50%
Iron will doesn't "set" your sounds to 0%, it just reduces it by 100%, which is completely different.
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Then you dont understand the concept of what reducing something by 100% means. Truly. None of you seem to. And it doesn’t matter what order you do the math in. You can factor in Stridor before or after, then end result is the same: if you are reducing something by 100% then you get 0, and once you get to zero you cannot add back a number that’s in percentage form. If you don’t believe me, try it on a calculator.
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Its how programming code works.
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But I bet full volume is a concrete number, it isn’t just “100%”, is it? You can’t have 100% of anything until you decide upon a range.
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Base sound is 100
Iron will removes 100
Stridor adds 50
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That's not how the math works. Think of it as units of the base amount, rather than multiplicative. Let's say, base sound is 100 units.
Iron will reduces by 100% and stridor increases by 50%. So.
Ironwill = 100 - 100 = 0
Stridor = 100 + 50 = 150
Iron will subtracts 100 units, and Stridor adds 50 units.
When you add both to the equation, it works like this.
100 - 100 + 50 = 50.
This is consistent with every effect in the game that does things off of percentages. If you increase your healing by 11% and then also by 33%, it works like 11 + 33 to get 144% healing. NOT by doing 111% and then doing 33% more of 111 %, which would be 147.63%
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No, this is EXACTLY how math works when you’re dealing with percentages. If you have 100 units of something (could be 3637875 in this case because the range is unspecified) and you lessen it by 100% you get zero. Now, if you try to add back 50% from zero you aren’t working with the original number, you are working with the new number, which is zero.
Again, to repeat for the umpteenth time, I KNOW what you guys are saying and what the developers intended. But it’s still wrong. You guys can keep repeating the same things over and over and over again and I’ll do the same. They’ve phrased it wrong and nothing you say will change that.
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Programming code is additive. Its why using old Tinkerer then using certain add-ons together in a certain way would give you a better benefit than reversing them. For example: Using a BNP on a Commodious Toolbox then adding a scrap would give you more charges. Here is how programming works (the basics).
Commodious Toolbox is 300 charges (just an example) and scrap is 20 charges. BNP is still 25% of the entire toolbox. Using the BNP would make the total charges left 225 because its 25% of 300. Now adding scraps so 245 total AFTER using the BNP out of 320 charges altogether.
Now 320 charges THEN the BNP has a new value to subtract from. Now the total is 240 charges total after using the BNP. That's 5 charges less than using the BNP first because the amount is additive. If you use an item that had 100 charges, an add-on that took 100 charges away but one add-on that added 20 charges, you'd have 20 charges total. Its additive for items, perks and add-ons in this game so putting a negative effect first then a positive one will always give a slightly better value.
Its like using a flashlight with a battery and a filament that reduces consumption. Putting the filament first increases the life of the flashlight but not the battery unless the battery is placed as an add-on first. It's just how coding works. It does each value after another. Put the battery first and it'll do the value for the filament for the flashlight then the charges for the battery life to give you a bit more flashlight usage total. Hope that explains it a bit better.
(Edit: Made it easier to understand)
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Lol. Again, no.
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All of that is besides the point. It may all be factually accurate but the concrete numbers aren’t in the descriptions of any of those things. It’s all left to vague desciptors like “moderately increases healing”. You can’t argue with that. But 100% of something? THAT is going to be a problem!
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😁 😁
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Thats if they stack multiplicatively. I'm saying in this case, no percentages in this game do, they look at the base unmodified amount then add it all together. For example, let's say you had 3 buffs and 1 debuff that make changes:
+15%
+10%
+30%
-50%
There are multiple ways to calculate this. If you do it multiplicatively. It works like this:
100 * 1.15 * 1.30 * 1.1 *.5 = 82.225%
If you do it additively, then it works like this:
100 * .15 = 15
100 * .30 = 30
100 * .1 = 10
100 * -0.5 = -50
100 + 15 + 30 + 10 - 50 = 105%
I am saying, that DBD tends to calculate things additively, not multiplicatively.
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For most people, the problem is solved when they hear "percentages in dbd work additive, not multiplicative".
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100% of something is absolute. It doesn't matter the number. If 100% is taken away then 50% of that value is added back, its still 50% of the total value.
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When I read that I assume 100% means I will give off 0% sound cues when I am injured. Unless they have stridor.
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Excuse me sir but we are on the dbd forums, this is no place for common sense. 😂😂
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This is way too true😑
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Yep, now unless you wish to talk about camping, tunneling, slugging, how SWF or any killer or perk is OP please go about your day my good man. 😉😂
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lol. It’s funny how some you are going to such lengths to explain things when I know all of this. But just the fact that you have to do get that involved into is only proof that they need to rephrase it into laymen’s terms.
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Except that is NOT how it is worded in the descriptions. Again.
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Not true. They explained it like this because you were acting like you didn't get how this worked. Most people know how that works without an explanation, much less a lengthy one like this.
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Because its additive. You take 100% then add 50%, it's still 50%. You add 50% to 100% to make 150% then you take 100%, it's still left with 50% of the total value.
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100% is 100% volume.
Iron Will subtracts the 100% with Stridor adding back 50% to the volume.
It's how the thing is coded. Take it or leave it.
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I didn't know Sluzzy had alt accounts. Next thing I know, 2+2 will equal 5.
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I said from the get go that I knew how it worked, but none of you listened. You only hear what you want to. I just pointed out the way math is “supposed” to work. You’re the ones arguing against the way things are taught in school, not I.
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Your post makes no sense.
We all know how it works, so there's no issues here.
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the description of the perks
stridor "All Survivors' Grunts of Pain are 25/50/50 % louder and their regular breathing is 0/0/25 % louder."
iron will "When injured, Grunts of Pain are reduced by 50/75/100 %"
so stridor means survivors are 50% louder, making them 150%. but iron will reduces it by 100%. so they end at 50%.
there... explained in a way that a 5 year old would understand. now stop.
1st- stop thinking iron will is applied before stridor. it isn't.
2nd- actually read the descriptions
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Jesus Christ. There is an issue with the WORDING IN THE DESCRIPTION. My God. The only reason that I know what I know is because I looked it up. The way they describe it is completely misleading to those that know how math is supposed to work.
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I think you are reading to much into it.
You can read the perk discription both ways. You're just choosing to read it wrong.
While i agree it can lead to confusion it shouldn't be an issue anymore after the first post explained how it works
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You ended your original post with "discuss." I don't think people really know what you want from them, so they're replying the same way they would to any other post about this topic.
I asked "How should it be phrased to avoid confusion in the future?" I can only assume that because you didn't post an answer, it means you don't have one, so maybe that is the question you're asking everyone else to answer. But you didn't actually ask it: you just said "discuss."
If rephrasing the perk text is not the topic you want to discuss, then I'm as baffled as everyone else. It's unreasonable to be upset at people for not answering a question you didn't ask.
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