Recent Anti-Camping changes and the actual solution.
Caution: Wall of text incoming. TL;DR at the bottom.
The recent changes meant to combat/discourage camping have been, at best, ineffective. At worst, they just further encourage toxic behavior, mindless gameplay and one-sided engagements. The Dead by Daylight team is currently trying to fix camping in the absolute worst way possible, which is to just stack more layers on top of the problem.
The Current Changes
Exhaustion Recovery and Invincibility Frames
Adding instant exhaustion recovery as well as frames of literal invincibility, while not necessarily a bad change, has just further encouraged people to hookrush and farm their teammates. By reducing the chance of there being any actual negative repercussions, people are going to think even less as they run up to a hooked teammate with the Killer breathing down their neck.
People who are actually camping probably don't care who is on the hook in the first place, they'll just sit at the hook and hit whoever comes to the rescue twice. Instead, yet again, as with all attempted changes to combat camping - this change only hurts Killers who aren't camping. You hit someone, they run up to the hook and start farming their teammate. You chase them and swing at the first person you can hit - and deal no damage. Because the person on the hook completely ate the hit, both people run away, and you're stuck there having to wipe the blood off your weapon. The Killer was just punished because they tried to capitalize on a bad play.
DbD is already a simple game with limited options. This just limits options even further and is able to very easily punish the wrong people. Any changes like this, where they're ineffective to solving the issue they're aiming for, while making the game experience worse and punishing people who aren't part of the problem, should never be accepted. This is an easily abusive mechanic. That could be easily changed by making the i-frames like Dead Hard, where you can't target the person being unhooked - that way you never get a gimped hit.
Chaser Emblem Penalty
The DbD team has done a good job of making this non-abusive. But it's a clear indicator of the mindset being used when drafting ideas to combat camping, which is essentially just to brute force the playstyle out of the window by stacking layers of penalties and difficulties.
This change isn't abusive so it's not a problem either way, but it just doesn't work. Campers do not care about their rank in the first place. Rank is already so easy to gain that this probably won't stop people from gaining rank anyway. This doesn't make camping more/less effective and it won't influence people to not want to camp. Simply, the change is harmless and ineffective.
Proposed Changes
The Proper Method
So the current changes don't really work. And as I have said, no changes of this nature will actually be effective without also being heavily abusive. Camping, and to a further extent tunneling - two of the biggest Survivor complaints regarding playstyle in DbD - will never be solved by stacking layers on top of the problem.
What I mean by this is that both camping and tunneling exist for a reason. There is a root to the problem which lies in the game's core structure. This is something which absolutely cannot be ignored or worked around - it will always pose a problem. It must be addressed directly. If it isn't, then people will always want to camp and tunnel. And if they want to, they will try. And even if you make it so they can't, they'll just end up feeling frustrated, and the other players will be annoyed by the attempt to play the game in an unfun way.
There simply is no better way to address these concepts. In fact I believe it is the only way worth dedicating any time to.
The Root of the Issue
So, where does the problem lie? Where's the first place people should be looking when they think about camping and tunneling? It's a simple question: Why do people camp/tunnel in the first place? The answer is even simpler: Why wouldn't they?
The game is setup at the core that hooks act as extra-lives for Survivors. You go down, you get hooked - you lose one life. If you are hooked thrice, it's game over. There are no penalties to being hooked outside of being closer to death, and there are no benefits to the Killer hooking you other than that you are closer to death. Once you are dead however, it's extremely pressuring to the team and very beneficial to the Killer.
Seeing the problem? The Killer hooks you once and then has you closer to death. Until you are finally dead however, they do not gain any major or long-term benefits. So, what's the logical conclusion people will come to? Someone gets unhooked - they are injured, you know their location, and they are closer to death than anyone else - Why not go back and hook them again? It's sort of like repairing a generator. Yeah, if you repair it to 50%, you've certainly made good progress. But that doesn't mean anything until the generator is fully completed.
In short, whoever is closest to death hook is the highest value target for a Killer. That means the first person who is hooked is immediately the highest value target for a Killer, who they'll want to focus down.
Now there are reasons not to do so, but they're not explicit mechanics within the game. Strategies like "Spreading pressure" are more abstract concepts than well-defined mechanics. My point is that the game itself is setup so that camping/tunneling is an appealing strategy to those looking to play effectively and win. Which, even in a casual game, is something people will want to do - win.
How to Fix It
So, the issue has been pretty well defined now. People are playing in a particular way that isn't fun. They are drawn to this playstyle because it's a defined strategy within the game's own core mechanics. The community doesn't enjoy this playstyle and the developers want to make changes so people don't use it anymore. So, how should they do it?
It's a simple idea with many possible solutions: Make Survivors who have been recently hooked less valuable targets than people who have not yet been hooked.
That's basically it. Give the Killer a reason to chase new people. Add a genuine mechanic which gives them an incentive to leave people alone if you already hooked them recently. Lots of ways to do this (and I'll provide my own suggestion later), no way is necessarily right, but following this line of thought is definitely the best way to do it.
Why? Because this way you're encouraging Killers to play in a way that is more fun for them AND the Survivors they face, not by punishing them for playing the "wrong" way - but by making the fun playstyle the most effective one. This positive encouragement is far more effective than just negative reinforcement that camping/tunneling is bad.
My Suggestion
New Affliction: Crippled
- Applies to a Survivor after they are unhooked by another Survivor.
- Reduces the action speed of the affected Survivor by 25% until the effect wears off (similar to Dying Light).
- Dynamic debuff duration. Depending on the current state of the match, Crippled may have a longer or shorter duration.
- For example, if 3 generators have been completed by the time a Survivor was first hooked, and they are unhooked before the 2nd phase, Crippled may be applied for up to 180 seconds. In contrast, if a Survivor is hooked within the first 30 seconds of the game, Crippled will only last up to 60 seconds, or may not apply at all.
- The dynamic duration of Crippled will help close the gap between low-tier Killers and high-tier Killers, giving under-performing Killers a better chance at securing the match without having to resort to camping/tunneling, while preventing Killers who are already performing incredibly well from snowballing and stomping the match.
The design of the Crippled status effect is to make spreading pressure by targeting different Survivors a defined mechanic. This gives Killers clear purpose to target different Survivors each chase, even if they have the opportunity to re-engage someone who is close to death. This adds weight to the action of being hooked and would hopefully instill fear in Survivors over the idea of being hooked for the penalty, rather than for the frustrating idea of "Oh boy, I guess I'm gonna die first". This will help prevent matches that end too quickly, both for the Killer and Survivors who end up getting focused down early.
This mechanic is also a good opportunity to rework some perks, and give more use to already existing ones. For instance:
Dying Light
When the Obsession is unhooked, killed, or sacrificed, all Survivors suffer from the Crippled status effect for 60/90/120 seconds. This effect cannot be re-applied while the effect is still active, or for 30 seconds after the effects expire. Altruistic actions performed to the Obsession are 35/50/75% faster.
This stays in theme with the Obsession being a high value target for the Killer by offering them immense pressure, but clearly discourages the Killer from focusing the Obsession down. Instead they want to keep the Obsession around as long as possible so they can proc Dying Light multiple times during the match. The reversal of the altruistic action speed buff is to further discourage tunneling the Obsession by making it easier for Survivors to heal them, and just because I think it makes more sense to the name of the perk. Survivors should be drawn to the Obsession, trying to keep them alive - trying to prevent their beacon of light from being snuffed out.
Thanatophobia could be reworked to increase the duration of Crippled (40/50/60 seconds?) or the effects. Vigil would also increase the recovery speed from Crippled giving it a much better purpose all around. There's plenty to work with.
TL;DR
Camping and tunneling happen for a reason. That reason is that Survivors who are closer to death are high value targets by Dead by Daylight's design. Unless the devs change things so that recently hooked Survivors are less valuable targets, they will never solve this. Camping and Tunneling will remain, no matter how difficult they try to make it as a playstyle - and if they try to make changes like that, they will always be making meaningless changes or otherwise adding in mechanics that are detrimental to the game experience by being abusive.
Comments
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You confuse a few terms here.
Camping means that the killer stays in front of the hook (leatherface reving chainsaw) and that the survivor cant be rescued.What you are actually talking about is an incentive for the killer not to tunnel (not go for the hooked survovor again). I totally agree with the idea though and it already has been suggested several times (by truetalent too btw) but it always got trashtalked because it would be a killer buff basically.
I am just wondering whether 25% debuff is actually enough because removing a survivor from the game ASAP might still be more effective then reducing action speed of one or two survivors.
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Camping is ruining this game. Pretty much every game I play the killer never leaves a 30m radius of the hooked person. They need to increase lifespan on the hook to discourage all the face camping that happens in practically every ######### game
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@DeadByFlashlight said:
You confuse a few terms here.
Camping means that the killer stays in front of the hook (leatherface reving chainsaw) and that the survivor cant be rescued.Camping and tunneling are terms that often end up blurring together. They also have a similar purpose; focusing one person down (though sometimes they are done for different reasons). I mention both in the same context because I think these solutions apply equally to both playstyles.
If it's better to chase new people, you won't stick around the hook. If it's better to chase new people, you won't go back just to down the same guy again.
I really do hope people don't push against it because "it's a Killer buff". They're just shooting themselves in the foot. That's the kind of mentality where someone wants everything, so they get nothing.
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@Spudbar said:
@DeadByFlashlight said:
You confuse a few terms here.
Camping means that the killer stays in front of the hook (leatherface reving chainsaw) and that the survivor cant be rescued.Camping and tunneling are terms that often end up blurring together. They also have a similar purpose; focusing one person down (though sometimes they are done for different reasons). I mention both in the same context because I think these solutions apply equally to both playstyles.
If it's better to chase new people, you won't stick around the hook. If it's better to chase new people, you won't go back just to down the same guy again.
I really do hope people don't push against it because "it's a Killer buff". They're just shooting themselves in the foot. That's the kind of mentality where someone wants everything, so they get nothing.
Sorry to tell you that, but that idea was originally called "truetalents idea". His idea was to give all survivors a gendebuff when you manage to get a fresh hook which is very similarly to your idea.
The whole thread derailed into complaining that truetalent is a killer main camper with no skill and the whole idea got completely trashtalked
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What if they simply added in a defensive mechanic against premature hook rescues? Let's say that for the first forty seconds that someone is hooked, and the killer isn't within a 32 meter range, any survivor that goes for the save has a 10% to be instantly downed by one of the entities tentacles.
Killers would be strongly motivated to take their chances and leave the hook, and it would basically end hook diving, considering that if all three people tried to compete for the save there would be a scary 30% chance that someone else will be instantly downed.
I am a bit hazy on the exact distances and percentages that would make this work, like how far the killer has to leave in order for the mechanic to begin count down, but I think the formula is solid. I guess it may still be discredited as a killer buff, but survivors may care about it less considering a low percentage of an instant down may not feel like as much of a threat as a guaranteed, stackable repair debuff.
The only real issue I see is generators happen to be within the hook radius, but there's probably creative workarounds for that, which I'm too tired to think of at the moment. I'll edit later, ha.
Post edited by Wahara on0 -
I think killers should also have point incentive to not tunnel or camp. One idea I had was "Fresh Meat". This scoring event becomes available for 15 seconds after a survivor has been unhooked. It gives you extra points for hitting survivors other than the unhooked one during these 15 seconds.0
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Something that I didn’t see you mention about the Chaser penalty is that it messes with Hag and Trapper. Those Killers now cannot guard the hook effectively without losing Emblem points. Remember being able to place a trap near a hook and then surprise a Survivor either by teleporting to them with Hag or holding them in place so you can get another hook as Trapper? Well guess what, those times are gone.Post edited by SnakeSound222 on0
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Honestly, in many cases the Killer doesn't seem to have other options. When survivors orbit your hooks, and you know they're doing it, they've created a target rich environment. Even when that isn't the case, the survivors all tend to be monumentally bad manners about even the most narrow escape, and the endless taunting and tea bagging can only end in so many ways. Half the time when a survivor gets camped, it's because they were acting like a douche to begin with, in my experience.
Well, okay, maybe more like 40% of the time. There are other variables, of course; killers who just want points, players who literally don't know anything else to do, game maps that are so small that leaving the hook for even a second guarantees a freed survivor, etc. Honestly, when I'm playing killer myself, I end up trying to play nice, but it feels like almost all of my games have some extremely BM Claudette who taunts at me, acts like an ass, and then gets mad at me in post when I punish her for acting up by making damn sure she stays on her hook. When I'm playing survivor, I still see this, but to a somewhat lesser extent.
In the end, I don't think that camping is a fun strategy to play against, but I see far too many situations arise where the killer has almost no choice but to make sure their sacrifice stays on the hook. It may not be fun to play against, but the issue won't be fixed by trying to punish frustrated or belligerent killers. The only proper solution to camping I can think of would involve an increased risk for the saviors. Make de-hooking someone take longer, for example. Or getting downed all the way to dying state if you get whacked while trying to pull someone down. In that environment, orbiting a hook becomes less attractive to survivors, who might start actually going for objectives and trying to escape, rather than constantly saving one another and taunting the killer.
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I'd like to point out that if you know for a fact the killer never leaves a 30m radius, you are close enough to make the strategy viable.candymaniam said:Camping is ruining this game. Pretty much every game I play the killer never leaves a 30m radius of the hooked person. They need to increase lifespan on the hook to discourage all the face camping that happens in practically every [BAD WORD] game
The devs already increased hook time to it's current state. camping didn't change. If you want the killer to leave the hook, make devour hope base game play. They will sprint away from the hook because they want that sweet 5 stack.0 -
I only camp for a few reasons. One of which, I don't even consider Camping.
- Gates are open and I need to secure a Kill. I think most people consider that while Gates are open, this is fair play.
- SWF group are being Trolls. If they try to ruin my game, I'll do everything I can to make it not fun for them.
- They're hook blocking, or standing there waiting to unhook while I'm at the Hook. If I KNOW you're right there on the hook, it would be stupid NOT to kill you. Be smart, use stealth, give me five god damned seconds to move away.... something.
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@Tiersis said:
I only camp for a few reasons. One of which, I don't even consider Camping.- Gates are open and I need to secure a Kill. I think most people consider that while Gates are open, this is fair play.
- SWF group are being Trolls. If they try to ruin my game, I'll do everything I can to make it not fun for them.
- They're hook blocking, or standing there waiting to unhook while I'm at the Hook. If I KNOW you're right there on the hook, it would be stupid NOT to kill you. Be smart, use stealth, give me five god damned seconds to move away.... something.
- Why would you need to secure a kill? To not depip? A survivor needs to escape. Facecamp is bad even after the gates are open, so should still be punished. There is no reason why you would get a free kill like that.
- There are also people that play solo. I think majority is. And people in my games are most of the times like me. No teabgaiing, just doing the objective. And they still get camped.
3.Only people who bodyblock, are mostly persons playing in swf groups. You hardly ever see it done by solo survivor players.
I get that Playing against a SWF is harder because of communication. But dont ever blame that too on solo survivors. When people camp, its very hard to free them without coms. Most of the time, the rescuer just gets downed and traded in.
The biggest problem with camping is that as a survivor, you actually have no choice then to go in. You can do gens, but that only gives you objective points. Survival points can hardly ever be obtained then by escaping the match, so an entire category that is just wasted. So leaves altruism en boldness. And you get both from unhooking a player that is camped, which i why many people do it even do they know there is a camper. If you dont, you will most likely depip. I have seen that plenty of times when i try to play like everyone suggested. But you just dont get enough points in 3 categories not to depip with a killer camping without trying to free someone. And unless the developers rework points for survivors so they too can actually get points in 4 categories during the match, Camping will always stay.
Because killers know that survivors simpy dont have a choice then to go in, so they can wait. The 4k will be there do matter what.0 -
Seriously? Survivors need to escape? Killers need to Sacrifice Survivors. If the gates are opened, and noone is on the hook, thats just the killer giving up.
You actually believe as a killer they should give up and just let you escape instead of taking the points from the kill?
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@Spudbar, Your insight into the problem is excellent and well thought out, but I disagree with your implementation of solutions.
The only flaw in your post is that you don’t mention increased ways for survivors to escape a chase rather than elingating a chase. This is another major issue I see in game design. These two issues should be looked at in conjunction if the game is to be better balanced.0 -
@Mediva said:
But you just dont get enough points in 3 categories not to depip with a killer camping without trying to free someone. And unless the developers rework points for survivors so they too can actually get points in 4 categories during the match, Camping will always stay.
Because killers know that survivors simpy dont have a choice then to go in, so they can wait. The 4k will be there do matter what.
Doing gens and escaping is a viable strategy that often results in at least 2-3 people escaping. It's not that Survivors don't have a choice - they just don't like the choices they're given. The best choice (not to reward or play into camping) results in a so-so BP gain and probably not gaining rank. It also just isn't fun.
So, they run up to the hook, fail, give the Killer a 4K - not because the strategy is strong but because they're directly rewarding it - and so Killers will continue to camp not only because the mechanics define it as an effective strategy, but because Survivors are stubborn and keep allowing it to be effective.
IMO the ranking system does need an overhaul to properly reflect performance, instead of just being a pat on the back for doing enough things. Though that's outside the scope of this thread I feel.
My point is, camping isn't effective if properly countered - the true problem is that it just makes the match turn sour for everyone. The devs keep trying to add mechanics to reinforce the idea that "camping/tunneling = bad". Those haven't worked for the past year, they're not going to work now. They need to find a new angle. That would be something along the lines of "many chases = good".
Like for my idea of the Crippled affliction, people are being given a reward for playing opposite of the camping/tunneling playstyles. But, if they decide to play those ways anyway - the punishment is already inherent. They're not gaining any benefits from the system.
Instead of trying to just eliminate camping and tunneling from the game (which is bad because you are not only eliminating options, but also because there is such a huge risk of having abusive systems which punish the wrong people), the devs just need to create a system which makes people not want to in the first place. Make the opposite behavior beneficial for themselves, more rewarding and more effective. Afterward, if they really want to, they can try to create systems that do directly punish camping - but they need to be careful.
@Kind_Lemon said:
@Spudbar, Your insight into the problem is excellent and well thought out, but I disagree with your implementation of solutions.The only flaw in your post is that you don’t mention increased ways for survivors to escape a chase rather than elingating a chase. This is another major issue I see in game design. These two issues should be looked at in conjunction if the game is to be better balanced.
This is certainly one of the biggest issues in DbD currently and I have my own opinions on it. But this thread is not about chases, just camping/tunneling. Why the devs current mentality does not work and a better direction for them to take.
That's really the scope of this discussion and this was never meant to be a cure-all solution to DbD's problems - in fact it was only meant to offer a solution to this very specific problem and to make sure it cannot have adverse effects on the rest of the game.
ATM I am convinced my own personal idea should not break anything if properly implemented. Especially not for current the chase/evasion system or any future changes made to it. I'm not saying it's the best idea, it may have flaws I haven't considered. It's more of an example however for the direction I think the devs should be going when considering "How do we stop camping/tunneling?"
The chase/evasion gameplay certainly needs adjustments but I think that's better as it's own individual topic.
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@Mediva said:
@Tiersis said:
I only camp for a few reasons. One of which, I don't even consider Camping.- Gates are open and I need to secure a Kill. I think most people consider that while Gates are open, this is fair play.
- SWF group are being Trolls. If they try to ruin my game, I'll do everything I can to make it not fun for them.
- They're hook blocking, or standing there waiting to unhook while I'm at the Hook. If I KNOW you're right there on the hook, it would be stupid NOT to kill you. Be smart, use stealth, give me five god damned seconds to move away.... something.
- Why would you need to secure a kill? To not depip? A survivor needs to escape. Facecamp is bad even after the gates are open, so should still be punished. There is no reason why you would get a free kill like that.
- There are also people that play solo. I think majority is. And people in my games are most of the times like me. No teabgaiing, just doing the objective. And they still get camped.
3.Only people who bodyblock, are mostly persons playing in swf groups. You hardly ever see it done by solo survivor players.
I get that Playing against a SWF is harder because of communication. But dont ever blame that too on solo survivors. When people camp, its very hard to free them without coms. Most of the time, the rescuer just gets downed and traded in.
The biggest problem with camping is that as a survivor, you actually have no choice then to go in. You can do gens, but that only gives you objective points. Survival points can hardly ever be obtained then by escaping the match, so an entire category that is just wasted. So leaves altruism en boldness. And you get both from unhooking a player that is camped, which i why many people do it even do they know there is a camper. If you dont, you will most likely depip. I have seen that plenty of times when i try to play like everyone suggested. But you just dont get enough points in 3 categories not to depip with a killer camping without trying to free someone. And unless the developers rework points for survivors so they too can actually get points in 4 categories during the match, Camping will always stay.
Because killers know that survivors simpy dont have a choice then to go in, so they can wait. The 4k will be there do matter what.Why would you need to escape? To not depip? A killer needs to kill.
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