Any proposed changes to Ruin + Undying + Tink?
Now that its become a debate topic in the community due to some videos recently being made, it would seem like Small PP killed edition is the next on the nerf meta block. It will probably go the same as DS+ UB where the combo gets utterly destroyed, but I would like to see what you guys think some cool nerfs would be to the combo.
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A buff would be nice. Especially to Undying, which was nerfed to hard.
So maybe reverse the change?
EDIT: Before i forget it. Why did you do another thread on the same topic from yesterday?
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not the same thread or even topic, last thread was about the general thoughts on the build after someone's video started debates over it and this thread is about what changes the community would make to the perks.
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My guess is the combo will be nerfed as more killers use it. Plus it's a Blight and Spirit combo, it's buffing fast killers who already over-perform and hardly doing anything to the slow killers who under-perform. Blight and Spirit kill rates are so high right now, that perks that improve them will probably go on the chopping block. Just look at the Strider nerf. It was caused by Spirit.
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Omg. I knew it. Now that "the Youtuber" (im not allowed to mention his name) made some videos about it, its the thing to talk about again. Imo Undying needs a small buff and ruin and tinkerer are completely fine.
Anyone who thinks this is a "smoll pp build" is out of their minds, but thats just my take.
I hope this comment doesnt go over the line, idk how many more warnings i can take before a ban....
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where have you seen the current kill rates for blight + spirit?
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It's not to oppressive on immobile Killers like Clown, PH, Slinger etc. But it becomes pretty oppressive when combined with movement Killers like Blight, Nurse, Spirit etc. Even on Billy it can be quite annoying to go against since he can also zoom from A to B within seconds, and Wraith as well.
That's the big problem. Meta Perks will always be stronger on top Tier Killers and necessary on immobile Mid/Low Tier Killers, so they can't really nerf the Perks. I'd rather buff the Mid/Low Tier Killers to a higher level and then nerf the Perks.
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I wouldn't change them at all. Unlike the old Survivor 'small pp' build, the Killer 'small pp' build has meaningful counter play. As Survivor, you can:
Run detectives hunch or small game. (This will become much more viable once inner strength becomes a general perk)
AND / OR
Split up on gens. Seriously. The Killer can only pressure one person at a time if you split up.
When both of these are used, it is entirely possible to beat this build consistently.
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I would just change back the aura reading of Undying for dull totems. 4 seconds seems more than enough to locate a survivor, i don't think as killer you should be able to see a survivor cleansing a totem for the entire 14 secs. Especially since Undying doesn't transfer to Dull totem anymore ;)
Tinkerer i would just slightly nerf the duration of the Undetectable from 12/14/16 sec back to the 8/10/12 sec.
Ruin could be tweaked bit : it actually has a 100/150/200% regression right now. I feel like it should be 100/125/150% but if the gen is left untouch for 16/12/8 secs the regression increase by additionnal 50% up to a maximum of 150% bonus regression (so 300%) every 8/6/4 secs. So it actually rewards you for pushing survivors away from gens to get away from you or saves others. Like they really will have to make a choice.
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Glad to see people are realising the underlying issue. It´s the breathtakingly huge disparity in killer power levels. The top 3 are so strong that in their current state they should honestly have their own qeue.
The killer smol pp build does deserve nerfed just because on them, it´s insane. All the other killers, which are for the most part very underwhelming to begin with, basically need perk combos of that caliber to stand a chance against half decent teams but they can´t have nice things in order to not break the game even more for the top killers.
If Killers were at least somewhat in line with each other in terms of viability, changes could be proposed more easily. I´m kind of at a loss at how to change the combo honestly. The better solution would be to nerf Blight and Nurse and buff some killer base mechanics.
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The underlining should be more WHY killers use 3 gen slowdown perks.
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From my experience, this ties in with the weak kits of the majority of killers. I´d never blame a Legion or Ghostface, for example, to run even 4 slowdowns bc without them, they´d get juiced beyond belief 10/10 games against good teams. People who run these kinds of builds on the select few strong killers just need to gid gud though, they really shouldn´t need it.
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A tooltip in the loading screen how to cleanse totems.
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Undying is fair now, it guarantee's your first totem broken is never ruin (which is what the main complaint was about totems before undying asides from crappy spawns). What it did at release was just stupid, vision on all totems allowing you to see when exactly a survivor tried breaking it was just dumb. Let alone the inane comments "It makes killers play healthier".
It didn't. I had match after match 99% of the killers during this time (September-February) slug at 5 gens and play like sweatlords.
TLDR; Reversing the nerf is a bad idea, the months during ruin undying tinkerer were some of the most miserable games I've played in solo queue ever.
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Yeah, but shouldn´t killers be able to play builds as they like? Instead of being forced to play with so many gen slowdown perks?
I mean, even the devs said, that gen slowdown perks do not synergize. Yet using 3 or 4 gen slowdown perks is currently seen as normal.
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I wouldn't change perks that are perfectly fine because a bunch of bad survivors can't figure out how to cleanse totems removing half the build.
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No one would have complained, if they kept Undying the way it was, but removed the aura reading.
But they removed the respawn and kept the aura reading, which doesn´t seem like a problem now. At least no one is complaining about the aura reading of Undying.
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None, they are fine and have counterplay, the counterplay to old ds was slugging and with unbreakable on top it removed all counterplay, break the totems you removed half of the killers build, unlike the survivor build which didn't let the killers build any pressure through slugging or getting someone out early while they were still able to progress their objective, survivors can still progress their objective while the totems are up and have a pretty easy time when they are down since they are now versing a killer with 2 perks
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Plus the weird addition of a notification telling you there's undying when you go near a dull totem, they added that for some reason as well.
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Red rank killers can't play this game without 3-4 perk slowdowns whenever killer they play. The best one or the worst.
Imagine using the training wheels build and thinking that you're good at the game.
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Every gen slowdown perk that is added to the killer side of the game has to be balanced on the survivor side. Gen speeds have to be fast enough to account for a killer using the best 4 killer slowdown perks.
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Oh those killers don´t think they are good. They struggle to get hooks/kills because the game balance went over board.
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Honestly I don't think it needs a change. The build is as strong as the player, if you can't constantly push survivors off the gens while at the same time getting downs, those perks do little to help you. Besides, Tinkerer is counterable since it makes the killer's behaviour quite predictable.
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The notification doesn´t make any sense. It feels like hand holding from the devs.
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I kinda liked the old Tinkerer. Not the old one, I mean the old old one, the one that made add-ons that affected charge speed faster.
Not sure if it was busted though. I'd just make it work without add-ons, but allow it to stack with them as well.
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This has been said before. Do the totems.
Unless you are playing against me, please stay away from my totems
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Have you try to bring a map, counterforce, small game or detective hunch those thing can help against totem related perk. Or have you try learning the totem spawn so you dont have to waste a perk slot i cant speak for other but for me i know more or less where the totem spawn on most map
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If Killers are using the training wheels in red ranks, then Survivors are on an autopilot.
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Make Tinkerer a token perk, lets say 6 tokens.
After a proc (same requirements as before, 70% on a gen) you will lose a token.
That way a killer can’t have unlimited procs with Ruin and Pop regression.
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Make it so that Tinkerer doesn’t proc over and over again on every gen unlimited times with no prerequisite, I guess? Maybe a small cooldown (and I mean small, nowhere near other killer perk cooldowns). That wouldn’t affect lower mobility killers much since they can only get to one gen at a time anyway, but would stop a killer like Blight from going gen to gen every time the perk lights up.
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It’s because your aura is visible to the killer, that’s why the game tells you undying is in play.
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Also, I would like to add that when you know the killer has this combo, you can harass him.
Repair to 70%, hide, see the killer losing time, he goes, you go back. It works more if the killer is a brain dead that always comes when Tinkerer rings the bell. This is annoying if Ruin is still there, but the killer will loose more time than survivors by searching people and stopping chases.
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There's no reason Tinker needs to be limited in how times it can proc. If the killer can regress a gen below 70% they should be able to get their perk to proc again.
And so what if a blight is running to every gen that procs tinkerer? They are dropping chases and not getting downs if they can do that. Which survivors can counter by splitting up and forcing multiple tinkerer procs since the blight will have to give up gens since even with his mobility it's impossible for him to stop 3 gens at once.
If you are having an issue with Tinkerer + Ruin, find the totem since manually kicking to get gens below 70% takes quite a while and wastes the killer time if a survivor stops the regression before it gets below 70%. Pop only works on a single gen at a time and only gets good value if the killer is getting quick downs.
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How do you even "change" a combination of perks? Ruin is fine, Undying is fine, and Tinkerer is fine. Sure, the combination is dreadful and I really dislike it, but you can't really do something about it. I mean, you could nerf one perk out of those 3 in that combination. But in my opinion, none of those perks deserves it.
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Yeah it's called bring Detectives Hunch and win the game. There are perks that counter totems. Use them.
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There are a million perks and even an item that directly counter totems. Ruin undying doesn't need changes survivors just need to take one map or perk out of the 4 and 16 a team gets.
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What’s the problem with Blight going from gen to gen? You mean other than tons of regression with Ruin, the Undetectable status granting quick hits, he gets a dropped pallet here and a dropped pallet there which makes the gens much less safe for next time Tinkerer goes off, and he can pick the gens he wants to defend and just let go of any far gens and keep regressing close gens over and over, dragging the game out for a long time.
It’s funny that you think most Blights aren’t just running Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/Pop, lol. So survivors have to hunt and cleanse totems, then once they’re gone and the survivors have taken hits and hook states and there are few pallets left the Blight can just Pop gens over and over.
So all you have to do is just find and cleanse totems, split up on gens, know where the killer is at all times and don’t go down. Easy when you play solo and have no way to coordinate with your teammates of course.
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The killer being undetectable doesn't stop Blight from making noises when he slams into walls or prevent you from seeing the blight heading towards your direction. Or you can run Spine Chill to know when the killer is looking at your direction without needing to pay attention to your surroundings.
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I’m not talking about gen grabs, obviously you can hear him when he’s close but that gives you a lot less time to react to his approach than the terror radius would. Which is the point of Tinkerer granting the Undetectable status effect, surely? It cuts down significantly on the head start a survivor can get.
Spine Chill is a good pick against Tinkerer but unfortunately I don’t have space for it in my build because I have to just run BT to help my team against campers, just run Kindred to allow some coordination when saving, just run DS so I don’t get tunnelled off hook, just run an exhaustion perk to allow me to survive longer against killers with strong chase powers, just run Iron Will to counter Spirit, just run Small Game/Detective’s/Counterforce to cleanse totems, just run Unbreakable so I don’t get slugged, just run Bond so I don’t lead the killer to my teammates on gens… I’m sure you get my point.
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Blight can't grab out of Lethal Rush and if he's not rushing at you when tinkerer procs then he was likely already close by beforehand and you were already hearing his terror radius.
If you miss hearing blight ending his rush nearby and let him grab you, then you just need to pay more attention.
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I guess all the complainers of "Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer" that have seen the Scott Jund video about it forgot something important : this build is not OP, even on Blight, the game is just transforming into a stall game, and in a stall game, patience is needed.
Only Nurse with double range of Spirit with movement speed during phase are problematic with this combo. But, I'm sorry, if a combo is nerfed to the ground because of only two killers, this is absolutely wrong. That would be the same thing as buffing Iron Will and nerfing Stridor, just to nerf Spirit but the lazy way. The result : one perk destroyed, and one perk god tier, and the main issue is not solved....
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Ruin/Undying have already been nerfed, tinkerer was actually buffed to make it better because before it was actually worthless.
The answer is to do bones, without Ruin the killer gets no passive pressure and base regression is so hot garbage as to not even exist.
Its really telling how bad survivors are that if you stall the game out for even a little bit of time outside of their genrushing window, they buckle like dried wheat.
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People find it boring, but the issue is that the meta is so constricted, on both sides. What are you gonna run, Distressing, No One Left Behind? The best fix for this is to just fix all the weak perks so we actually see the meta disrupted a bit.
Besides that, Ruin is fine, Undying is definitely fine, and Tinkerer is fine. Two can be cleansed, all can be countered by spreading out on gens, which is the most efficient way to do them anyway. It's not like they reward being bad either, you have to apply pressure to the team to make use of them. Nerfing any of them would make them too weak. The meta needs to be disrupted, not torn down.
The true issue is a lack of alternatives to run and a bad ranking system that forces sweaty players onto people still just learning
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They're made up lol. Blight is one of the hardest to play in the game
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@ThanksForDaily Both of you are biased if you think this isn't the case on both sides. What else are you going to run when half your matches are against campers or sweat squads? Most of the perks in this game are garbage, so really, what else should you run?
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That's okay, if you feel that way. Personally, I feel like I've much more space when it comes to fun perks as a Survivor, same with the various combinations you can make. Are they always meta? Of course not. But I can still have a good, solid game despite running Flashbang and Head on. While as a Killer, the pressure to have certain perks, such as Corrupt and Pop is much higher. And that's on top of BBQ to help with the general grind of the game.
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Undetectable isn't why people run tinkerer it's because of the gen notification. If they were to nerf tinkerer by reducing the time you are undetectable people would still use it
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Actually, I'm pretty sure Scott also mentioned Blight with Nurse and Spirit, plus I think he also said to a lesser degree Billy. My guess is that the developers will nerf the perks just like they did with the Strider/Spirit combo.
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Of course now another round of threads about this build because some guy thinks it's too strong. Can killers not have strong builds? Which btw can be countered by destroying totems. So no I don't think it should change it should stay the same.
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And as I said, nerfing some killers by nerfing perks is a terrible choice.
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I think with this perk combo being a problem on multiple Killers, then it would be better to nerf the perks than the Killers. If that is the direction the developers want to go. It might not be outperforming to warrant a nerf.
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