Nemesis Discussion
General notes/Early disclaimers
I find Nemesis to be quite lackluster and he feels like a lot of missed potential. I thought we might get a discussion going of potential ways to improve him not only in terms of strength but also in terms of enjoyment to play as and against him. I've got some ideas but feel free to post you're own or simply thoughts on Nemesis as he currently exists.
Firstly I think the #1 goal for every killers design should be to have the survivors play differently. We only have one game mode and well designed killers I think ask something different of the survivors. This philosophy keeps the game feeling fresh and unique even when it's still the same game every time. I find that we have too many killers that have their counter play or play style generally speaking identical to others.
Some positive examples of good design would be things like Nurse, Huntress, Plague ect. Keep in mind we aren't talking about power level here, but simply their play style and how you play against them as a survivor. It's unique to other killers. This keeps the game fresh and differentiating one match from another.
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Nemesis
I'm actually not looking to do much in regards to his tentacle as to me it's very copy/paste to other killers and not a unique experience. We want to emphasize what makes play as and against him unique. I also think improvements in terms of a killers map pressure or mobility are also much better design rather than improving on anti-loop. This allows survivors to have their long fun chases while allowing the killers to still be competitive and not have those long/fun chases lose them the entire game.
- For every survivor currently infected zombies gain an addition 25% move speed.
- Every time a survivor is hit with Tentacle Strike zombies move 25% faster for 10 seconds. During this boost period zombies are significantly louder.
- Zombie detection range increased by 8m and field of view increased by 18 degrees. (Admin Wristband basically)
- Reduce the speed boost gained from tentacle strike on causing infection. (basically only when it's used to cause infection, not cause damage)
- Using a vaccine takes 10 seconds longer.
- Mutation rate when hitting survivors increased by 33% (Marvins Blood)
Essentially our main priority here is increasing map pressure through zombies which is his main feature that is unique. Survivors should actually be actively scared and running from zombies instead of what we have now which is just an annoying thing that shows up sometimes and isn't actually effective at giving any map pressure really whatsoever. I understand the devs have limitations with adding additional zombies which is why I have gone this route. If we cannot have more zombies, then make the ones we do have scarier. We want the zombies to be actively pressuring gens much better than they currently are as well as scary moments of speed increases for the zombies when the killer plays well and lands more tentacle strikes. This creates more risk/reward and skilled plays. The killer may try to greed more tentacle hits to increase map pressure but in turn these are much easier to dodge than if he just went for the m1. Survivors should need to draw zombies away and break line of sight to lose them. More active game play with the zombies in other words.
The vaccine increase is to slow the gen pressure down a little more as well.
The mutation rate change is because it's currently too low to where every Nemesis basically feels required to auto lock Marvins Blood every time and limits build diversity.
The reduced speed boost on only infection tentacle strike hits (not ones that injure the survivor) is to make it a tad less punishing in the fact that he requires 3 hits to down survivors essentially.
You'll notice that most the buffs for Nemesis are rewarding for if he plays well. He needs to be skilled at landing tentacle strikes and infecting survivors to see a lot of these benefits.
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Addons
Not focusing here too heavily but just some tweaks to under performing addons.
Iridescent Umbrella Badge - Survivors are inflicted with Exposed status effect for 60 seconds when using a vaccine.
Shattered S.T.A.R.S. Badge - Increases zombie move speed by 100% for 45 seconds after a generator is completed. Your zombies are silent.
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Will be actively updating this post with changes as necessary.
Comments
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That is an issue I agree but that's more bug related than it is tuning. I'm assuming that is something the devs will be working on.
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The zombies JUST need to stop getting stuck on everything and he would be one higher tier, he's still strong as he is, is add-ons are mediocore though
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Even with that issue fixed I think most people (myself included) would put him in B tier and that's being quite generous. B tier in DBD is extremely weak for reference. B tier basically means those killers require the survivors to make lots of mistakes to capitalize on.
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Yes, but not every killer will be A or S tier.
Nemesis is fine as he is, and if his zombies would not get stuck (let's say we even give him one more) he already would be very strong.
The only problem he really has is that his zombies are often very useless, but the more fun it is when they are actually useful. I would rather see other killers be balanced (except zombies being stuck all the time). I mainly use them as info anyways, only if i can close a tight spot (for example he guards the shack entrance).
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"Yes, but not every killer will be A or S tier."
I actually think that's a problem. A tier should be the baseline for all killers to have a chance at being competitively viable. Anything below A is under performing and should be improved.
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It may not be possible but I feel like just adding another zombie to the crew would make the game more interesting. Nemesis can then farm his zombies for tier 2 in early game or let them roam for extra gen pressure. Of course there would need to be some extra balance for that to happen.
I'd just like to see his zombies be annoying rather than a pushover since there are only ever 2 of them.
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He's a very odd killer. If it wasn't for the incredible popularity of the franchise, I don't think he'd be played much.
- His zombies are amazingly map/RNG dependent. Some maps feel like they need a third zombie, and their AI still bugs out.
- Infection...seems pointless. It doesn't really give much info and a lot of survivors don't even bother cleansing it. This feels like a part of his kit that got nerfed somewhere in development and then they ran of out time to do anything with it.
- His tentacle is quite strong, despite it's janky hitbox, but the DH 'fix' amounted to a pretty substantial nerf to the tentacle, as not only does it give you a free dodge, but it can also prevent it from hitting you *and* breaking a pallet if you time it right.
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I spam primarily Trickster/Nemesis
But this is something i feel like i have to say. Nemesis is sadly the perfect DBD killer right now even with the half functioning zombies.
He is very easy to understand on both sides.
The mechanical aspect of the tentacle doesn't guarantee you hits always that helps to kind of escape the deterministic nature of the game, aswell as opens up the game for new mind games.
Has very good tell when he hits T2 T3 .
Deals well with pre dropped pallets, has random map pressure from zombies that you can also use for info.
He is fairly oppressive in chases but not enough for it to become a problem.
He isin't strong enough to get 4k's constantly but is strong enough to get 2k's most of the time.
Some of the changes you suggest i really do feel like just convolutes the game in unnecessary ways. And they don't really make the game more interesting its just raw numbers just because.
However i will say, His addons are dogshit I dont even know where to start. sometimes i really can't tell what purpose do addons serve. not just Nemesis but for a lot of killers AND survivors too.
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"His zombies are amazingly map/RNG dependent. Some maps feel like they need a third zombie, and their AI still bugs out."
Yeah ideally I would have gone for more zombies, even scaling it by map size, but unfortunately the devs have said that isn't happening which is why I decided to go the second best route which was making the 2 we have as good as having 3 or more would have been.
"Infection...seems pointless. It doesn't really give much info and a lot of survivors don't even bother cleansing it. This feels like a part of his kit that got nerfed somewhere in development and then they ran of out time to do anything with it."
This is actually why I focused a lot on the benefits of infection (increased zombie speed at base for more people infected). I also felt like infection currently feels pointless and as you mentioned, probably lost along the way some where in development. The change actually makes being infected matter and encourage them to want to get it off as removing it lowers your map pressure incrementally.
"His tentacle is quite strong, despite it's janky hitbox, but the DH 'fix' amounted to a pretty substantial nerf to the tentacle, as not only does it give you a free dodge, but it can also prevent it from hitting you *and* breaking a pallet if you time it right."
I agree which is why I wasn't looking to make much of any improvements in this area.
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I never understood why the devs went so light with Nemesis vaccine cleansing time. What's the point of infecting someone if they just easily get rid of what is otherwise supposed to be deadly? Might as well add skill checks to the vaccine box too to keep survivors on their toes.
Also, they couldve went with scarier zombies. Others have suggested the Ne-a zombies, and I think it would've been way creepier.
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I would have gone this route as well but unfortunately the devs have already said it isn't happening which is why I decided on this second best route which is basically trying to make the 2 we do have as good as if we had 3 or more.
"I'd just like to see his zombies be annoying rather than a pushover since there are only ever 2 of them."
I agree. My changes are intended to actually make them scary and have survivors actively worry/look out for them instead of what we currently have now (just an ineffective annoyance)
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It feels like they were originally for a different mechanic that never happened and then just kind left in because. His powers not really strong enough to care about using the vaccine, while it's also simultaneously extremely easy to get and use the vaccine. The whole vaccine and vaccine box mechanic feels kind of pointless, same as infection itself as me and another poster mentioned. That's basically why I tried to have his "buff" be scaled on infected survivors as it gives it more of a purpose and rewards keeping everyone infected. I also tried to give the vaccine/box a purpose in being a little addition gen slow down in having it take longer. The survivors should actually care about using the vaccine now as well since infection will finally have a purpose.
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I think that it should also be an option to force zombie respawns from a distance or to have a built in death timer if they don't move for 15 seconds or so.
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Some killers are very weak on higher mmr, and that's good, because wraith is a very strong "noob"-killer. And i mean that in a good way. When i started playing killer, wraith was funny, because noone paid attention to the wobbly air. In higher MMR everyone will know how to counter him.
Nemesis is still strong in mid mmr. He can be A tier in certain scenarios, but i know what you mean.
but we need below A tier, there always will be. because theoretically every killer can perform, just not high mmr, and not everyone is high mmr.
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I suppose that could work as a fix for their getting stuck issue.
I thought about making changes to an addon that would make your zombies respawn on whatever gen has the most progress. Would be quite hilarious of an addon.
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I actually don't think he plays well whatsoever at high MMR. Would you mind posting a link to your games if you record them?
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As you said you were rusty from being gone I won't comment on your play, but being honest with you man, those survivors were not high mmr.
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I don't mean to bring up your game play but just to make a point. If the survivors still lost after you missed at least 4/5 tentacle strikes you threw that's less a representation of how good Nemesis is as you're saying, but more a representation of how truly bad the survivors were. We're seeing the same thing is my point, just interpreting it differently.
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oh.. idk if it still works, you can't open chests as they close, right. But! you could (or still can) take the vaccine out and lay it in front of it. If that still works, they should change it imo. Kind of pointless
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- For every survivor currently infected zombies gain an addition 25% move speed.
- Every time a survivor is hit with Tentacle Strike zombies move 25% faster for 10 seconds. During this boost period zombies are significantly louder.
- Zombie detection range increased by 8m and field of view increased by 18 degrees. (Admin Wristband basically)
These changes are more directed for Nemesis to use his zombies like moving trapper traps where you can funnel the survivor into zombies and it would give zombies a lot more threat in general in bigger maps where distances for them to patrol are big for them to make any difference.
We had a bit of this going on in PTB for Nemesis, than they weakened zombies detection range and made zombies louder post PTB. The survivors comments regarding zombies if I remember correctly was something like "Zombies are low skill map pressure that auto win the game for killer". I can't remember what precisely the feedback was regarding them, but it was something like that. It increases skill-cap of using zombies, but to the survivor's perceptive, it just looks like PVE mechanic that is defeating them and they don't like that so I doubt they'd ever do that. He could also use an extra zombie so there killer+3 zombies, 1 zombie for each survivor.
"Reduce the speed boost gained from tentacle strike on causing infection. (basically only when it's used to cause infection, not cause damage)"
"Mutation rate when hitting survivors increased by 33% (Marvins Blood)"
This I doubt they'll ever change, apparently they think nemesis's 1vs1 is oppressive because you need make reads at pallets and survivors don't like 50/50's as seen by spirit and deathslinger changes etc. This ironically his biggest problem right now a chase killer is that he almost has negative corrupt intervention because his early game is so bad that he spend first 1-2 minute of the game getting his ability which doesn't do damage therefore survivors are likely to always complete 3 gens before he even hits tier 3 and gets his first hook.
"Using a vaccine takes 10 seconds longer."
Another aspect they'll never change about him. His ability to give free stypic needles as item in a chase just double down on giving him a bad early game. Very few survivors even utilize this mechanic against him. I'm pretty sure the reason why its like 4 seconds to heal is because they want survivors to have extra health states vs his "oppressive" power 1vs1. Allows them to shift+W longer, makes his early game worse so its easier to genrush him before his anti-loop becomes remotely relevant.
They'd never change any of these mechanics for nemesis because they do not want killer's skill to be expressed in any killer. Nemesis has probably most potencial out of new killers they've released. He's just bold down by a bunch of negative mechanics that make him purposely underwhelming so that survivors won't complain about him.
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It is reasonably likely, from the fragments of info we have, that his infection mechanic was originally supposed to spawn more zombies when it hit T3. This is why the benefit of T2 is way, way better than the current T3 one, why his daily quest was to hit T3 four times in a match, why survivors got a huge speed boost (so he couldn't farm infection points), why they tested multiple zombies beyond just the two, why so many of his addons effect zombies despite there only being two, why he's so weak at the start of the game (so that he could snowball in late game), and why survivors even have the vaccines to remove the infection in the first place.
The DBD code being what it is, they couldn't get more than 2 zombies to work without crashing the game (and it had tons of issues at launch with only just the 2 anyway), so they had to scrap the "zombie horde" mechanic. Trying to fix the two zombies you DO get would be a great start.
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Pretty much agree with everything you've said. Them balancing around low skill survivor is inevitably the root of the problem.
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I like your ideas for zombies but if they were to get all those changes I would remove their collision after a successful hit.
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To make Nemesis really solid you just have to remove the speed boost on infection (or drastically reduce it), make zombies respawn if they get stuck for 10 seconds and improve his addons (most of them only affect the RNG part of his power, which are zombies and vaccines, more addons should affect the Tentacle).
I understand your idea of improving the zombies but instead of scary they are just going to be even more annoying. Nemesis is already really not that fun to go against because of when you get "outplayed" by a zombie.
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I'm totally fine with that.
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"I thought we might get a discussion going of potential ways to improve him not only in terms of strength but also in terms of enjoyment to play as and against him."
I'm sure survivors enjoy him as he is now. so expect no changes.
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Yeah I'm not expecting, just attempting to remain optimistic.
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When you run nemesis on nemesis and nemesis's nemesis goes off than nemesis has a new nemesis.
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Facts. It's true!
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How long would your reduced speed boost be? One of his biggest problems is that speed boost allowing the Survivors to get so far. I was thinking about removing the speed boost completely because of how much that extra speed boost can hurt Nemesis.
Also do you think his tentacle hitboxes would still need to require perfect accuracy if you can't/don't drag them?
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Well I wasn't going completely in on removing the boost entirely because of how much I'm attempting to boost his map pressure to slow gens down. Maybe cutting the speed boost they get by like half.
I think the dragging of his tentacle is an intended feature and without it he would be much weaker.
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/289123/give-nemesis-a-rush-ability#latest
I think what he really needs is a chase ability, Nemesis is literally called The Chaser / Pursuer for a reason.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/267106/nemesis-buff-suggestions#latest
As for his Tentacle, since they don't want to remove the speed boost on Infection (Not Dmg Hit) a Rush would be the perfect.
However his T3 Tentacle IMO should be able to damage / infect & break pallets.
Currently it feels like if Michael's T3 gave him an extended lunge with no Insta Down
I do agree that the Vaccine should take 10 seconds longer.
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"I think what he really needs is a chase ability, Nemesis is literally called The Chaser / Pursuer for a reason."
They simply aren't going to do things like this. It's too much work for them and essentially redesigning the killer. His strongest feature is already his chase as well, so making that even stronger makes no sense.
"However his T3 Tentacle IMO should be able to damage / infect & break pallets."
This would be a good change. I do however think buffing his map pressure would be the better route for improving him though. Strong chase killers aren't fun for survivors to play against. Strong map pressure killers can allow them to compete while also giving fun chases.
Maybe hitting T3 could also buff the zombies more. Faster, further detection range ect.
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The best thing about Nemesis is his ease of use. He's not the greatest, but his gameplay is very comfy. He just needs some adjustments to the part of his power you're going to rely on the most, Tentacle Whip. The whip needs to be applying a debuff, preferable exhaustion or hindered so that survivors are driven to want to cleanse with a vaccine. Right now one of the biggest ways to slow down Nemmy's snowball potential is to get infected once and never cleanse. Being infected doesn't carry any downside, but it you're infected that means Nemmy can't get the big bonus to mutation rate on first hit. It's better to just walk up to a zombie and left them infect you can then Nemesis himself has a much lower mutation rate build.
You basically deny him quick tier 2 with that strat and the only downside is you take two hits to down instead of three which is...perfectly normal as if he'd not been using his tentacle at all!
Zombie pathing needs more adjustments and AI needs more adjusts, but giving them big jumps in movement speed is probably never going to make it out of the drafts. The most realistic thing is increased detection range.
Increasing vaccine usage time would be a nice to have, but it isn't mission critical considering there isn't a real reason to cleanse to start with.
Maybe 30-40 seconds of Exposed is more balanced for vaccine as it does give killer instinct to Nemesis when someone uses one.
Silent zombies would be interesting, but not having audio cues for things almost always results in a nerf call so I would drop this part. Maybe take the speed boost down to 75% so its more realistic. Again, giving zombies large jumps in movement speed for that long isn't going to make it out of the drafts.
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The problem with this is it's just improving his anti-loop, which is already his only redeeming quality. Anti-loop killers aren't fun for survivors to face. You're essentially taking something that's already not fun and making it even less fun. Map pressure killers are fun for survivors as they still get to have their fun chases without it costing the killer the entire game.
We need to improve him through his map pressure essentially.
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Yeah I wouldn't mind Nemesis getting a charge or the ability to globally reposition zombies by pressing ctrl at tier 2/3. In a chase with someone? Summon zombies will make them appear at the two closest hooks and you can use that to bully whoever you're chasing and also solve the issue of them getting stuck.
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"They simply aren't going to do things like this. It's too much work for them and essentially redesigning the killer. His strongest feature is already his chase as well, so making that even stronger makes no sense."
Forgot to add in my previous post that his 'Rush' ability would just make it so he actually HAS map pressure. Being able to down/hook a survivor then rush across the map to find a new one kind of like Blight / Hillbilly. It would also be useful since infecting survivors gives them a Sprint Burst and allowing him to 'Rush' and catch up to them. And really? Too much work to put in a secondary button and increase movement speed. This won't 'redesign the killer' it would actually make the character feel more like Nemesis in Re3.
"Maybe hitting T3 could also buff the zombies more. Faster, further detection range ect."
The problem with Zombies is that they are completely RNG. Even if they were to fix their pathing they would still be lack luster. So buff em' however you want but at the end of the day they will more likely be useless.
The best comparison I can make is Pinhead / Cenobite, he has;
- Anti-Loop
- Passive Map Pressure (Chain Hunt / 4v1)
- Teleport / Mobility (Find a Survivor (Even if rarely used))
So in comparison the Nemesis I envision and what we should get is;
- Anti-Loop (T3 Break & DMG)
- Passive Map Pressure (Zombies (Fix pathing))
- Rush (Find a Survivor / Catch up after Tentacle Strike)
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