Trying to solve camping and tunneling/ "game being surv sided"
Let's all address the elephant in the room.
Us survivor mains hate tunneling and camping killers.
You killer mains hate DS, unbreakable, etc.
Either way, this game is surv sided and it isn't fun for killers for the most part. Camping and tunneling isn't fun for us either but people still do it.
(BM people should be punished somehow but I won't include that in this suggestion)
SOOOOO....
I propose a rework.
For survivors:
DS should mainly be a perk to stop tunneling, not charge at the killer when he isn't near you and make him eat your DS so the perk has value if the killer doesn't tunnel you.
DS should remain active even after unhooking someone, doing gens, etc BUTTTT. Last only 20/25/30 seconds. This way, if you don't heavy tunnel someone, you won't have to worry about DS anymore. By the time you down him, you just have to wait a max of 10 seconds before picking him up considering you end that chase quick.
Borrowed time is like a DS in the sense that both are insurance policies, just that one is for your teammates and the other for yourself.
Borrowed time provides enough time for a survivor to get unhooked and run to a pallet/ window so no issues here ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T CAMP OR TUNNEL.
Unbreakable speed isn't much already but if you guys think it's unfair, maybe a small nerf? 15%/20%/25%?
For killers:
We have a problem with tunneling and camping.
Tunneling can only mainly be solved by changing surv perks. So Won't touch on that in this sector.
Camping wise, someone else did bring this idea up before on the forum but I'll refine the idea here.
Anytime a killer is within 12-14m of a hooked survivor, their hook state bar drops 50-60% slower.
Face camping means a ton of space to breathe for survs and at least no bubba face camp where there is no counter play
Proxy camping would now be brought to an ethical level where there is at least space to unhook the survivor and run a short distance away from the killer.
Completely not camping means that the game progresses on like how it is now.
Comments
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Camping and tunneling shouldn't be nerfed, Killers should be desensitized from using those tactics by rewarding them for not doing it. Also, making the timer go slower has been tried and was abused
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Your idea here is that if people are not toxic, they should be rewarded. So doesn't that mean my government should give me pay raises because I didn't commit crimes my whole life? Nope. That logic is wrong.
Good behavior is good behavior. Good behavior is not "not displaying bad behavior". There's a difference.
Punish the bad, reward the good. Not reward the "didn't do bad things" and reward the good.
Abused how? If you camp, of course it will be abused. If you decide to wait right outside the range and proxy camp, people can just show you that they're unhooking but don't actually unhoook to make you come back so the timer gets slowed again. If you don't read the idea and think in depth first before you talk, please don't comment.
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This is a game, not justice/morality irl.
If you want to change a type of behavior, you need to first understand exactly why it is occurring, and then encourage the desired behavior while discouraging the undesired one.
Think pragmatically.
If there is no incentive, no good reason encouraging players to play in less ruthlessly effective ways, why would they ever do it? Why should they? Your response is wrong, you need to give a little to get a little here. I disagree quite a lot with the op's solution, but this is a core concept in design based thinking that is undeniably true.
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This is a game, not justice/morality irl.
If you want to change a type of behavior, you need to first understand exactly why it is occurring, and then encourage the desired behavior while discouraging the undesired one.
Think pragmatically.
If there is no incentive, no good reason encouraging players to play in less ruthlessly effective ways, why would they ever do it? Why should they? Your response is wrong, you need to give a little to get a little here. I disagree quite a bit with the op's proposed solution, but this is a core concept in design based thinking that is undeniably true.
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I'm a survivor main that used to play killer sometimes because I enjoyed it. Now it's very unfun. Yesterday I tunneled one guy and camped with insidious bubba lol. I got my "revenge". They are toxic with or without reason, anyway. Now I give them a reason to be.
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Yeah so what if it's a game? So I can't use real life ways of handling things? If it seems to work in real life, I'm sure we can try it in a game as well.
If you're asking me to think of why killers are camping and tunneling, even when i play a 4 pax party game, my friends and I are all GENERALLY well mannered people. We don't do toxic things UNLESS they camp or tunnel us, yes, being toxic to a toxic person isn't right either, I know. What I'm trying to say here who are you to say that we surv mains started this whole back and forth toxic cycle? The killers started that bad behavior. Not us.
To fix that, add punishment to the bad behavior. Not reward them for behaving differently. If they don't behave toxic and stop camping/ tunneling THEN you add the incentives for not camping/tunneling. Your "why should I" logic is what makes the world more toxic.
If you see an old lady who falls on the road with heavy traffic. Are you just going to ask yourself "why should I help her?" It's the exact same thing here.
I'm not saying we're dogs but I've had experience training dogs and if you had any too, let me ask you...
Your dog has a habit of peeing and taking dumps on your bed. Are you going to wait till the dog stops doing it and reward it or punish the dog when it does the undesirable behavior? Again, the exact same logic.
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Honestly, I'm not going to say anything much about this.
As much as 2 wrongs don't make a right but I don't blame you for camping and tunneling THAT SPECIFIC SURVIVOR if they BM you.
Sorry to hear your games are unfun. I really hope you get matched into better ones on your coming matches. Good luck!
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I don't blame nobody for nothing
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Your idea has been tried and it was abused by Survivors, no need to discuss it further.
Camping and tunneling aren't toxic. They're strats, valid strats at that. They're no different than genrushing. It's efficiency. People who want to win will play efficiently, wether the opposition is happy or not. You trying to nerf it due to, as I've stated on other discussions with you, selfish reasons. You want Killer strats removed while barely touching Survivors.
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The comparison is wrong. I do think face camping is not fun to both side but other than that, I can't agree with you.
Tunneling and proxy camping are the counterparts of genrushing and looping. It is just the best killers can do. If they couldn't, then this game would be just 5 players to watch 5 gens fixed quietly.
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Unbreakable is the only viable counter to slugging, there's no reason to nerf it.
DS is the only viable counter to tunneling, it should probably be buffed so it works more than once since more killers just shrug off DS and keep after you.
Borrowed Time is fine.
What you are talking about doesn't address tunneling or slugging at all. Also, your solution for camping has been tried before. I would suggest adding the modifier, "while the killer isn't in a chase".
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Ive seen and probably suggested this one before but I still think it would be a great change to have some kind of positive reinforcement (most likely though bp rewards) to give players who play nicely some form of compensation, since the only form they usually get now is sadly losing most matches, but if there was a bp reward for playing nice it would kinda be like a trade off, play nice and get a massive amount of bp and (still likely) lose some mmr, or play in the unfun (but still intended) ways and have a better chance at winning but forgo the bonus
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I'd love Devour as a compensation lol, aswell as the BP
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DS is perfectly fine, one 5 second stun is plenty. If it worked twice it would probably get abused a lot.
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You can force survivors off gens but you cannot force a killer away from the hook to safely unhook. I never said it wasn't a strat but it is a TOXIC strat at that. If you can't think for both sides instead of being so biased, then keep your comments to yourself.
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How is tunneling and proxy camping the counterpart of genrushing and looping? If you're so bad at the game (sorry for saying this) that you need toxic strats to win then no matter how much logic anyone shows you, you can't win as a killer. I don't have much problems when I play killer. In a loop, it's your ability to end the loop vs the surv's ability to keep it going. Can't compare it with toxic things like tunneling. Yes, tunneling is a strat but it doesn't change the fact that it sucks out the fun for survivors. If you think looping is toxic then how else can the survivor escape you? You don't have to tunnel to win but survs need to have that teamwork and effeciency to win.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
I'm the biased one? I just told you that you're only nerfing Killers because you don't like it, but you're not changing anything on the Survivor side, if someone is biased, that's you
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If you don't read everything and understand it, don't comment. You're making stupid comments. I'm nerfing ds AND adding a punishment for killers that stay too close to hook so people have space to breathe when unhooking?? Stop being a kid like everyone else and reading 2 lines then answering with your personal bias.
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Are you blind? Did you not see DS TIMINGS SHOULD LAST 20/25/30 SECONDS? Stop being a kid and trying to victimize yourself when you cannot win arguments. If you don't know how to be constructive, learn or get out of the forums. I don't think you'll be saying things like these in a meeting room at your workplace in future when you grow up.
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Expect the problem here is that he's right they've tried you anti camping idea before
It was just abused with good survivors looping the killer around hook while others slammed out gens
No anti camping idea you can think I'd gonna work that's why they haven't been implemented
Not trying to be negative Nancy just being honest
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That ds nerf is barely anything, I'd say it's stronger than current DS as it doesn't deactivate when progressing the game but still weaker than old DS. Lmao, I'm the kid as you start insulting me while I'm actually providing constructive criticism
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Ah they have? Well they can always tune it back to that game state and if the killer is in chase, it acts as if the killer was not in the hook's proximity. That way, the running survivor has to lead the killer away from the hook.
This way any nearby survivors camping for the unhook has to wait for the right time as well.
Also, no, you're giving constructive criticism or somewhat along those lines and I appreciate that. Kids on forum nowadays LOVE victimizing themselves to try and win arguments. "Make killer breathing more audible?!?!?! NO. WHY YOU SO BIASED AGAINST KILLER. DO YOU KNOW WE HAVE A TOUGHER TIME THAN FARMERS? BOOHOOO"
but as for you...
YOU MADE A POINT, EXPLAINED IT AND GAVE A CONCLUSION TO IT ALL.
LEARN FROM THIS GROWN PERSON, KIDS.
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Didn't I type the same thing lmao
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I propose such an idea when the killer hangs the survivor on the hook, then he has a buff that will work more than 32 meters from the hook in the form of a kick on the generator with 10% regression for 20 seconds, but if the timer expires, then these 10% will turn into progress on all generators ignoring further regression
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So adding that part that the killer has to be 15m (give and take), When you catch up to the unhooked and down him. That's 20 minimum. You just have to wait for 10 seconds for DS to deactivate. THAT'S CALLED BARELY ANYTHING? LMAO.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Let's revisit your own post for your sake, ok?
Yes you did mention it was tried before. (Make a point)
*missing explaination* (Where is your explaination?)
*missing conclusion* (Where is your conclusion?)
You just said tried before, no need to discuss and shut me down before listening to what I have to offer. You call that constructive criticism? Where did you learn that? The teached or parent that taught you that needs to find a new job.
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I'm ignoring your 15m Radius because it will never exist, because it already did and was abused. Think next time you type. Calling me a kid isn't really an insult, but it's kind of hypocritical seeing the kind of comments you're making
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lol comments I make are of an angry person. Adults are allowed to get angry. The way you speak and carry yourself offers no value to fixing broken things, I hence concluded you were a kid.
Uh huh, did exist, so you try a solution, it fails, you stop and accept the problem as part of your life? Who's going to hire you with that attitude in future?
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To add on, picture this.
If in future when you have a job. You ask your boss if you can take leave to do something, then he answers you with "what's the weather like today? Has my dog eaten?" and whatever irrelevant thing to you taking leave, wouldn't you be angry as well?
You're making irrelevant comments or comments on issues I have already talked about so I don't see why you blame me for being pissed about it. I just hate repeating myself.
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Why do I need to explain everything to you? As someone who thinks they are higher than anyone else, you should've known how abuseable your idea was. If you're going to suggest something, think everything through. Example:
If the Killer is within x Radius, hook timer is stopped. Easily abuseable, Survivors can just loop around the hook
If the Killer is within x Radius, hook timer is stopped, but if he is within a chase, timer continues normally. Easily abuseable. Survivors can wait outside the radius and run away as soon as the Killer starts chase, denying chase
There, here's your constructive criticism
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If camping and tunneling gets you angry then leave the game lmao. It's the only way most Killers can win the game
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imma be real deal here:
Survivors
- ds is (mainly) fine right now. survivors should not be able to do gens or other objectives and be safe from the killer. even if it had a shorter up time.
- bt is also okay. it does exactly what it should do. i could argue against the speed boost, but i won't.
- ub is one time use and is a give or a take anyway.
Killers:
- the anti-camp mechanic as i always say would only have to work if another survivor is not in the radius (if it were made a thing). therefore survivors could not proxy the hook. if the killer got 10 meters, survs get 20 meters. this is the best way to do it this route. killer does punished for camping and survs can do gens. also there of course would be the whole if the killer is within the radius for x seconds it would start, but then if a surv comes up it reverts to normal.
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As mentioned in my previous point, if you even had the brain capacity to process my words, THAT'S HOW YOU SOLVE PROBLEMS IN REAL LIFE. I NEVER CLAIMED TO BE HIGHER THAN YOU. STOP BEING A LITTLE VICTIMIZED KID.
Your first point was already addressed in a comment that you mentioned before. Are you too sleepy to read roor something?
Your second point is invalid. My nerfs punish killers for staying inside the radius. If a survivor camps outside that radius then just chase him normally??? if he comes in to radius and get chased, that's even better because you get to "camp" with a normal timer and lock someone else down in a chase??
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Killers just shrug off DS and continue to tunnel. It needs to be buffed to work twice.
Basically a proxy-tunneling killer downs a survivor. Then they hook that survivor and stay within heartbeat range to proxy-tunnel the survivor off hook. They take the DS, then down and hook that survivor again. Then they proxy-tunnel the survivor off hook and kill them.
This isn't a perfect buff because the tunneled survivor still gets killed without really playing the game but at least it gives them a 2nd run.
DS right now is suppose to be an anti-tunnel tool, but it doesn't really work as that since the Killer just shrugs it off.
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*laughs in 2 Survivors being at the hook, which happens a lot when camping*. Also, how do you want me to use my brain when it's melting due to someone constantly whining about game tactics. You don't see me crying about genrushing, tunneling or camping. Wonder why? Because I know why they're being used
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Your idea on the killers side are great.
The surv ones tho. If you play killer you'd understand how annoying it can be when survs abuse the 4ds thing. In my server, toxicity is a norm. I've seen 4DS 4DH 4UB and it really is too much for a casual killer to deal with. So nerfing the timer on ds would be good. In return, don't deactivate it on doing objectives. That way, DS becomes just an insurance if the killer camps you and you get unhooked in front of the killer. The other changes I made already pressures the killer away from hook so when they work together, I think it makes a better game.
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In all honesty, there's no reason to reply to this thread. After reading several replies from it, I've realized the OP is a Karen and believes "shouting aka all-caps" is a valid way to debate other people. OP calls other people kids, yet has a tantrum anytime someone says something counter to what he is saying. Sad.
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yeah the better killers can shrug off DS, just look at ortz fighting 4 rank 1s. I'm trying to improve the casual gameplay. Imagine being just decent at the game, wanting to enjoy it, get genrushed and feel pressured and now you have to face 4DS. kind of unfair especially if it works twice. There has to be a balance.
Right now, I very commonly see people getting unhooked and straight rushing into the killer's face and take chase. Hop into a cupboard and the killer just watches it knowing that if he opens it, he eats ds. People are using it aggressively to waste the killer's time and that's really not how the perk is supposed to work.
On the other hand, if you don't get tunneled, DS is just an insurance in case you did.
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That's the best way to explain it, thank you. I didn't want to get screamed at so I didn't say anything
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I didn't know trying to fix problems that people actually face is called whining. Ok I'm sorry for making you feel that way. Get your mommy to buy you ice cream later, yeah? Be a good boy.
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If you're truly casual, you won't reach high MMR
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I've been providing constant counter arguments but you keep ignoring them. I'm going to pull a "You" move and READ EVERYTHING AND THINK BEFORE TALKING. JESUS CHRIST.
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Caps is a mode of emphasis, not just screaming. There are certain words that need to be made clearer than the rest to project a point.
How about you go post something and then let the angry mob comment after not reading your posts properly and understanding what you mean but writing a stupid comment anyway? You can clearly see that when you carry yourself properly (as clearly shown in your first reply), I reply you properly.
If you want to think I'm a Karen based on the other posts from kids and expect me to be patient about it, then sorry you feel that way but I'm not going to change that behavior for those people.
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Ignoring stupid or irrelevant comments is bad? I didn't know that. You didn't read and understand my points then go ahead and make stupid comments but you expect me to acknowledge you? Oh grow up. Go read how I reply to other OPs. I never talk to them like the way some kids *cough cough* reply to my post.
Anyway I already addressed the issue with your counter arguments. point, explain, conclude. If your boss gives you an idea in future and you disagree, are you just going to tell him "Nope, that's not going to work." and not provide a solution or contribute to solving the problem he had?
If you want to use my words, know what you're saying. Jesus christ, you don't even read and understand your own words. You're way below the age range I expected. How is someone the age of 4-6 using forums?
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maining killer i definitely am in the know.
i go out of my way to eat ds's some times. dh is used to it's best ability some of the time, plus you can bait it out easily enough. ub is just a gamble, wouldn't waste my time keeping it on my build for surv. plus, surv shouldn't be able to negate a unsafe unhook since they unhooked in front of the killer.
the ol' ds and ub is completely useless.
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Stop with the real world arguments. It's a video game. You have to bring arguments that have nothing to do with our actual conversation to feel like you're providing something to it. I provided actual counter arguments:
*laughs in 2 Survivors being at the hook, which happens a lot when camping*
It's worded as a joke, but is an actual argument, seeing as it's a fact that is a Killer is camping, atleast 2 Survivors will come for the rescue, pleas counter it
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Stop with the real world analogies? If you don't use the mindset of the real world then problems never get solved.
Here's another one for you,
If your partner wants to break up because "reason" and you disagree.
Are you going to talk it out a find a compromise? Or just be like "nope I disagree" then let it end there because it's "just a relationship"? Finding reasons to dismiss actual concerns is the kind of mindset that break things, leave it broken and never create any new amazing thing.
If the people that invented planes stopped at the first problem they faced, would planes still have been invented?
They saw a problem, the made a solution, they fine tuned it and they created something amazing called planes.
I'm not bringing irrelevant things into this topic. I'm telling you your mindset needs to change in order to address concerns people have and FIX PROBLEMS (which is more important in your daily life).
It's just a game? Ok so let's buff DS to a 20 second stun and being able to use it twice in a game. If the devs ever do that, how would you feel if you post on the forums that it's a problem and I comment " Nope not a problem. I don't have issues with it. I've also tested it before and it's not a problem. Nope. no no no."
Annoying isn't it?
Anyway for your argument, word it better so I people can understand. So what if 2 survs come for the rescue??
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Real wold analogies don't fit in a game like dbd. You're playing as a Killer, trying to appease a God by sacrificing 4 teens, so stop.
If 2 Survivors come for the rescue, and we use your 15 Meter Radius, the Killer can either chase 1 Survivor and lose the hook, or remain in the Radius, making it go slower, allowing for more time on gens.
Also, why should I change the way I talk? Is it hard for you to understand? Maybe you should READ BETTER!!1!!!!
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You can "use real life ways of handling things" but if your understanding of the issues is flawed and your metaphors don't fit the topic at hand, as is the case, then you'll be frustrated when your ways of handling things, fail to produce the results you want.
There is no "back and forth toxicity cycle" or some sort of ancient history from which the people of the killer main nation are responding to all perceived transgressions of the nation survivor mains, or vice versa. No one "started" anything, you're viewing this from too abstract a level, when you need to be dealing with it on a specific, individual level.
Your real life metaphors don't accurately relate to what you're attempting to describe. My "why should I" logic is mere pragmatism. Perfectly reasonable for this issue, and for designing gameplay systems. Old lady falls in the road with heavy traffic, you help her because you have a moral duty to not see others come to harm when you can prevent it. Because it is morally good and virtuous for you to care for others.
This does not apply in a game where your goal is to have fun, and to competitively attempt to win. You have no moral duty to make the other side happy about losing, there is no virtue in refusing to utilize the most ruthless and effective strategies. Your metaphor applies more to survivors on the same team, when a teammate is hooked. Not to killers, trying to kill all of the survivors.
I actually have trained dogs. If you have trained dogs, then you know that dogs differ from humans in that dogs live entirely in the now. They have little to no understanding of the past or future. They don't understand yesterday, or even much of the concept of the previous hour. If they do something wrong, and you wait 5 minutes to admonish them, they won't connect their actions to your corrections. They won't understand, and will merely react to you punishing them in that moment. You have to give treats immediately for good behavior to encourage the correct association, you have to admonish quickly so they understand the negative behavior. This is why if you baby your dog for several minutes any time you accidentally step on their foot, you are training them that whining is rewarded with attention. If you look at what dogs do to other dogs when they are injured, they come look and see what the noise is about, and move on. So for dogs, you need to do the same. Quick attention and concern, but don't linger on it.
There is no "waiting until the negative behavior stops to reward the player", you're making a lot of weird assumptions about what I'm saying, so I'll try to make it clearer. There is no waiting for anything. Again, you're viewing it from too abstract a level. You need to think about why the player tunnels. Ignoring purely toxic players bc you can't ever fully mitigate human evil, imo killers tunnel/camp for some combination of 3 reasons:
- They don't know where anyone else is, and this is their best bet at getting another hook. (information)
- They're not confident in their ability to act on the info of where other players are. (fear, lack of confidence)
- They believe that focusing 1 player down and getting them out of the game asap is more effective than switching targets and allowing the team to recover and reset. (ruthless efficiency)
So if you want to discourage players from tunneling as much as you can, you need to design around mitigating each of those factors by de-incentivizing the negative behavior around each one, and incentivizing the behavior that you do want, for each point.
How you go about that is a fun and interesting challenge, but you need to understand this approach for problem solving before you can actually solve problems at their roots. This is derived from something called Design Thinking, and it's extremely useful. I recommend doing your own research into it.
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There is no good fix to this. Every anti-camping measure that has been tested was immediately abused by survivors, and the game simply isn't balanced enough to remove camping/tunneling, especially for weak killers like Legion or something. For any anti-tunnel or anti-camping measure implemented, gen speeds should be slowed. That's the only way to ensure balance
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