Rework for Monstrous Shrine
It's no secret that Monstrous Shrine is a pretty bad perk. Certainly one of the most useless, though it's saved from being the absolute worst by at least not actively being a detriment...
Still, with the release of Scourge Hooks, I started thinking... what if Monstrous Shrine was reworked to be a utility perk for that mechanic, similar to how Undying and Thrill of the Hunt work for hex totems? Say, its primary effect is now that basement hooks count as Scourge Hooks, as well as every Scourge Hook on the map giving the current effects of Monstrous Shrine- or maybe different effects, since those are pretty useless, but the main draw would be to make the basement count for Scourge Hooks.
What do you think? If the actual on-hook effect should be different as well, what should it be?
Comments
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I actually fully agree with this idea and think it would be a really cool concept to have it reworked as a utility perk for scourge hooks to help incorporate scourge hooks in basement.
would be fun and interesting for sure if executed right
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i feel like basement hooks should count as scourge hooks in addition, as baseline. Having to spend a whole perk slot to do it doesn’t sound worth it.
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Monstrous shrine either needs a buff in numbers or an entire rework. What if instead of monstrous shrine affecting hook stages and unhook attempt penalty it did something else.
rework idea?: for every survivor sacrificed in the basement grants one token for a max of 4. For every token collected, remaining survivors have a 15% penalty to healing speeds for the remainder of the trial.
my reasoning: we already have scourge hooks that affect gen repair speed and hex pentimento affects gen repair speed by 30%. So having an additional perk the lower the speed at which gens are repairs would just be too OP, having them stack I mean.
what we don’t have is a whole lot of effective anti-healing perks. With this rework, it doesn’t revolve around an obsession, and only applies if you can actually get someone on death hook in the basement.
with basement camping being a thing, it’s better that it’s not abused to affect gen speeds which would basically incentivize that play style.
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OR, instead of death hook in basement just A hook in basement (per survivor). This way the 4th token actually matters. A max of 60% healing penalty though seems too OP. How about a 10% penalty increase per token instead of 15%. So a max of 40% for the entire match, is pretty big.
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I’ve made a similar suggestion too. Have Monstrous Shrine read something like
- All basement hooks act as additional Scourge Hooks for related perks
- You can always see the basement hook auras
- (Plus some other boost regarding the basement hooks, such as survivors rescued and/or rescuing someone from a basement hook suffer a condition, or it takes a bit longer to rescue a survivor from a basement hook, etc.)
That last benefit I’ve seen multiple suggestions, the main thing is just that it be better than the useless current “harder to pull yourself off a basement hook” effect. That way the perk can be useful on its own, and also synergizes with the Scourge Hook perks for some interesting possible combos.
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Yeah, I'm also leaning towards just straight up changing the effect as well. I like the idea of it taking longer to rescue a survivor from a basement hook, or maybe having the rescuer get affected with something...
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this was my idea back in September when scourge hooks were first introduced
Scourge hook: monstrous shrine
Your fervent care of the Hooks found in the Basement has aroused The Entity's interest.
at the start of a trial, the basement hooks become scourge hooks: the aura of scourge hooks are revealed to you in white.
while a survivor is hooked on the scourge hook all generators regress automatically.
when a survivor is unhooked from the scourge hook all survivors outside of 32 meters of the hook have there auras revealed to you for 4/5/6 seconds.
the idea behind this was to promote the killer to not camp the basement to get the most benefits
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Suggested a Monstrous Shrine rework back in 2017 on Steam DbD forums, lemme go dig it up:
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So, I've been looking forward to writing down these ideas for a while.
Monstrous Shrine, at one point, was 'useful'. This was when one could make a basement build out of Iron Grasp, Agitation, and Monstrous Shrine. Essentially, from halfway across a map, a killer could hook a survivor in the basement.
However, with the nerf of Iron Grasp, this is no longer the case. IG/AGI nowadays can barely guarantee a single hooking, against a series of bodyblocks on the way to the hook, much less a basement hook. As such, Monstrous Shrine is no longer reliably useful. And there's no point in using a perk that isn't reliably useful.
So, Monstrous Shrine needs a buff and/or rework!
Currently, its effect is to make progression on the hook towards death 3/6/9% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 5/10/15% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 5/10/15%), and to take a 3/6/9% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version.
Now, I've had a few ideas for this perk in the past.
[h1]Idea #1[/h1]
One such idea was to scrap all of the effects of the perk, and replace them with a basement hook being immediately into the struggle phase. Except, the struggle phase would last the full duration of the hooking, the full 120 seconds. However, being hooked once more, even if unhooked before going halfway through the 120 second struggle phase, would result in the death of a survivor. If a survivor was already hooked elsewhere on the map, and was hooked for the second time in the basement, which would normally put them in the struggle phase, they would die instantly on hooking. I'd call this the 'fear the basement' perk.
{EDIT} In response to unknownman016's question of what Idea #1 will do in its 3 separate tiers:
"Survivors being hooked for the first time in the basement would be (given 2 chances to attempt escape, or 40 seconds of 1st hook stage/given 1 chance to attempt escape, or 20 seconds of 1st hook stage/put immediately into a 120-second struggle phase). Survivors hooked for the second time in the basement would die instantly on hook, regardless of when they were previously unhooked, regardless of which tier of MS is being used. This is with the respective t1/2/3 versions of MS."
[h1]Idea #2[/h1]
Another such idea is something I had wanted to suggest for a while, but there was no precedent for the perk that I wanted to make. It would have a large benefit, balanced by a large detriment. It would also change the flow of the game and how the killer played it, entirely.
However, No Mither is now a perfect precedent for this kind of perk, and I won't be laughed out of the forums for this kind of suggestion.
Outline of idea 2:
-Perma sabo returns while this perk is equipped
-Basement hooks become breakable, circumstantially
-5 objects, relics for the Entity, are scattered across the map
-These 5 objects must be brought to the basement by survivors, otherwise exit gates will not be openable, nor will the hatch be able to open (including by key). However, to prevent griefing or cheesing, this effect would only last for 5 minutes after the exit gates were powered, or for 2 minutes after the second to last survivor in a trial dies. This is so the basement entrance cannot be bodyblocked to prevent people entering it indefinitely, and the hatch standoff/'slug 2nd to last survivor to hunt the last survivor' situation is prevented as well.
-Upon bringing the 5th item to the basement, the basement hooks would break, and the exit gates/hatch would immediately be able to be opened. However, this action would also put all the non-basement hooks on a 1-minute respawn timer.
-Potentially, bleedout timers would be extended while slugged, or survivors would be given 1 free Unbreakable. For balance reasons. The latter option is because survivors probably wouldn't enjoy being slugged for twice as long, based on how much they don't enjoy being slugged now.
[h1]Idea #3[/h1]
Idea #3 is essentially Idea #2, but instead of perma-sabotage returning, the infinite first hook stage would accompany the following previously mentioned things:
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-Basement hooks become breakable, circumstantially
-5 objects, relics for the Entity, are scattered across the map
-These 5 objects must be brought to the basement by survivors, otherwise exit gates will not be openable, nor will the hatch be able to open (including by key). However, to prevent griefing or cheesing, this effect would only last for 5 minutes after the exit gates were powered, or for 2 minutes after the second to last survivor in a trial dies. This is so the basement entrance cannot be bodyblocked to prevent people entering it indefinitely, and the hatch standoff/'slug 2nd to last survivor to hunt the last survivor' situation is prevented as well.
-Upon bringing the 5th item to the basement, the basement hooks would break, and the exit gates/hatch would immediately be able to be opened. However, this action would also put all the non-basement hooks on a 1-minute respawn timer.
-Potentially, bleedout timers would be extended while slugged, or survivors would be given 1 free Unbreakable. For balance reasons. The latter option is because survivors probably wouldn't enjoy being slugged for twice as long, based on how much they don't enjoy being slugged now.
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[h1]Idea #4[/h1]
Upon each time a survivor enters the basement, 1/1/2 of that survivor's perks will be disabled for the remainder of the match, by Monstrous Shrine tier 1/2/3. The disabled perks would be selected at random with tier 1 MS, but with tier 2 and tier 3 MS, they would be selected based on a priority list.
The perks would be removed in this order, from highest to lowest priority: Self-Care, Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, Bond, Empathy, Iron Will, Dead Hard, Lithe, Unbreakable, Balanced Landing, Plunderer's Instinct, Urban Evasion, We'll Make It, Lightweight, Quick & Quiet, Kindred, Object of Obsession, Saboteur, Technician, Botany Knowledge, No Mither, Adrenaline, Sole Survivor, Up the Ante, Hope, Ace in the Hole, Streetwise, Premonition, Spine Chill, No One Left Behind, Small Game, Slippery Meat, Leader, Prove Thyself, Dark Sense, Resilience, Calm Spirit, This is not Happening, Left Behind, Alert, and Open Handed.
As an example;
-If I were running Self-Care, Plunderer's Instinct, Up the Ante, and Slippery Meat, and entered the basement when the killer was running MS, I would lose the use of (a random perk/Self-Care/Self-Care and Plunderer's Instinct), depending on which the killer was running; MS t1/2/3.
-Upon entering the basement a second time in the match, I would lose the use of (a random 2nd perk/Plunderer's Instinct/Up the Ante and Slippery Meat), depending on which the killer was running; MS t1/2/3.
And so on and so forth.
The mechanic for this perk's activation already exists, in the form of Territorial Imperative. It would be a simple matter for its activation to be implemented, and would not be terribly difficult to give these listed effects.
{EDIT}: Originally suggested by sturmwolf74: Survivor perks will not function in the basement.
I think this would be a lovely addition to the t3 version of this idea of the perk.
[h1]Idea #5[/h1]
The killer would be able to sacrifice a basement hook to reactivate a broken Hex perk, on an unlit Hex totem on the map. This would be done by performing a 5 second animation on an unlit Hex totem, and would break the basement hooks farthest from the basement staircase first. It would trade 1 hook per re-lighting a totem.
[h1]Idea #6[/h1]
A survivor beginning to open the basement chest will result in them being: hit for 1 health state once per trial/sent immediately into the dying state once per trial/sent immediately into the dying state, with a cooldown of 2 minutes per activation. This would be the respective effect of MS t1/2/3.
[h1]Idea #7[/h1]
Just a direct numerical buff to MS, suggested by Larcz.
"Currently, its effect is to make progression on the hook towards death 3/6/9% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 5/10/15% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 5/10/15%), and to take a 3/6/9% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version."
In other words, currently:
-This takes 3.5/6.8/9.9 seconds off of the total time on the hook for 116.5/113.2/110.1 seconds of time in total spent on the hook, or 1.75/3.4/4.95 seconds off per each hook state for 58.25/56.6/55.05 seconds in each hook state.
-This decreases the 4% chance to successfully attempt escape by 0.2/0.4/0.6%, giving a chance of 3.8/3.6/3.4% to successfully attempt escape.
-This increases the penalty for a failed escape attempt by 0.58/1.13/1.65 seconds' worth of hook time.
I have no idea how the rounding of seconds and charges happens in DbD with cancelled/altered actions, but this math assumes that there are 120 charges on the hook and that charges are lost at a rate of 0.01 charges per 0.01 seconds on the hook, normally. It also assumes that 20 charges of hook time are consumed per failed escape attempt.
The reason that I bring this up is that I don't know if, say, the 0.58 seconds, or 58% of a hook charge, is rounded down to zero hook charges, so that MS t1 actually has no increased penalty for failed escape attempts, and the penalty for MS t2 and t3 is actually the same.
But, disregarding this, let's move onto the actual rework portion of Idea #7.
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In the buffed version, its effect will be to make progression on the hook towards death 10/20/30% faster, to make attempting escape off the hook 20/35/50% more difficult (by decreasing the odds of successfully attempting escape by 20/35/50%), and to take a 10/20/30% extra piece of the remaining time in the first stage of being on the hook for a failed escape attempt. This is only when someone is hooked on a basement hook, and the stats are at the perk's tier 1/2/3 version.
In other words, in the reworked version:
-This will take 10.91/20/27.69 seconds off of the total time on the hook for 109.09/100/92.31 seconds of time in total spent on the hook, or 5.455/10/13.845 seconds off per each hook state for 54.545/50/46.155 seconds in each hook state.
-This will decrease the 4% chance to successfully attempt escape by 0.8/1.4/2%, giving a chance of 3.2/2.6/2% to successfully attempt escape.
-This will increase the penalty for a failed escape attempt by 1.82/3.33/4.62 seconds' worth of hook time.
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This is as high as I think these stats can go, without making them unreasonable.
I considered increasing the penalty for failed escape attempts to only allow a total of 2 escape attempts, but with a 2% chance to Kobe off the hook, I'd say it'd be more hurtful to a survivor to even attempt escape in the first place than it would be helpful, because it takes about 1.5 seconds to attempt escape, and with an added penalty of 1.82/3.33/4.62 seconds, it would waste (3.32/4.83/6.12):(6.64/9.66/12.24):(9.96/14.49/18.36) seconds of hook time to attempt 1:2:3 escapes against MS t(1/2/3). And that's a significant penalty, on top of the 20/40/60 seconds wasted per each failed escape attempt.
I'm not sure how much I can reasonably fiddle with the stat of the increased rate of progression on the hook, or even any of the stats, as the devs designed them. This is because Monstrous Shrine is a perk that has long since been abandoned by the devs. When IG was buffed from when it used to be in its current state, to 3x its effectiveness, in response to sabometa and the need for basement builds, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When IG was nerfed back to its current values, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When the amount of time on a hook recently was increased by 30 seconds, an increase of 15 per hook stage, from a total of 90 seconds on a hook to 120 seconds, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No. When new maps such as Lery's, the Red Forest, Fractured Cowshed, Grim Pantry, Groaning Storehouse, etc were introduced, where it is nigh on impossible to carry a hooked survivor to the basement unless they are downed right next to it, thanks to long walls and convoluted pathways throughout each map's signature buildings/basement areas, was MS ever tweaked to compensate? No.
Here's an example of how difficult it is to tweak these stats: looking at my calculations, you may think that taking 27.69 seconds off of how long a survivor is on the hook in total before they die, as opposed to the current 9.9 seconds or the old 7.43 seconds (from when a survivor only had 90 seconds on the hook), is good, right? You'd be mistaken if you agreed with that statement.
MS was rarely even used at that time, when it would give a survivor 82.57 seconds of total hook time. What makes anyone think it will suddenly start gaining usage by giving a survivor 92.31 seconds of total hook time? And all of this, with the condition of a basement hook.
Here's the answer, and why I didn't include a direct numerical buff in my original list of 5, or even the updated list of 6 ideas: the concept of the effects of MS is outdated and dead in the current meta. There's simply no reason to take a perk that decreases hooking time, with the condition of requiring a basement hooking, with the disparity I noted previously in this paragraph, when there are perks such Thanatophobia, Hex: Ruin, Dying Light, Brutal Strength, Agitation, BBQ and Chili, Enduring, Iron Grasp, Hex: NOED, Hex: Huntress Lullaby, Overcharge, Knock Out, PWYF, STBFL, SFTS, Tinkerer, and Whispers that can decrease time spent hunting, chasing, and hooking, as well as decreasing the rate at which survivors progress at completing all 5 generators and escaping. Any of the perks on that list, in almost 99/100 cases, be more effective than the buffed version of MS, even if those perks are not being used to their full potential.
On top of that, I face another dilemma: how low can I lower the odds of successfully attempting escape before it's nothing but a waste of time? There needs to be some form of hope of successfully attempting escape, even with this perk, otherwise it's pointless, because the Entity will have no hope to feed from. It can't just be a case of 'Oh, this hook progression is too fast, it must be Monstrous Shrine, there's no point in even trying to hang on or attempt escape, I'll just suicide on the hook'. Sure, it's good for the killer, but it doesn't make for a good match, and would never be allowed to be created, thanks to the backlash that would come from survivors.
So, that's my take on MS and direct buffs of it, as well as why I believe that it not only SHOULD get a rework, but it REQUIRES one.
[h1]Idea #8[/h1]
This idea is based on a suggestion originally from ☆Im Bad☆, that MS would be fixed, if only it were to put survivors hooked in the basement into an unhealable Weakened State for the entirety of 1 minute after being unhooked from a basement hook.
From that, this idea will consist of something slightly similar.
MS t1/2/3 will:
-(slightly/moderately/considerably) decrease the action speed of survivors that were formerly hooked in the basement, for the remainder of the match.
-(not allow a survivor to heal for 1 minute after being unhooked/not allow a survivor to heal for 3 minutes after being unhooked/not allow a survivor to heal for the remainder of the match after being unhooked) from a basement hook.
Additionally, it will give the killer (0/5/10%) increased movement speed while farther than (52/46/40) meters from the survivor hooked in the basement.
The goal of this idea is to provide a lasting effect from being hooked in the basement, making it worth running as a perk when the condition required to activate it, is hooking someone in the basement, which is easier said than done. It also promotes not camping the hooked survivor in the basement for the speed boost to hunt someone else down with, and synergises well with BBQ and Chili. Additionally, it gives Territorial Imperative a purpose. It also promotes not tunneling the survivor who was basement hooked, and going for the unhooker in the interest of looking for another basement hook for another permanent debuff, without having to worry so much about the genrush or having to do a 2-hit chase from the basement escapee.
[h1]End[/h1]
I'll be updating this thread with more ideas as I think of them or as they are suggested, but this is what we have so far. So, what do y'all think of these? Keep in mind, this thread is a WIP, and any and all input is being taken in for consideration.
[h1]Side Notes/Free-Floating Ideas/Effects[/h1]
-Having multiple basements
-Increased movement speed while carrying survivors
-After unhook, suffering from debuffs (Exhausted, Mangled, etc)
-Auras not shown while hooked in basement
-MS spawns a basement totem that 1st totem perk equipped defaults to, takes longer to cleanse
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