Legion is not *that* weak
Don't get me wrong, he is by no means a killer that overperform or anything, But he's not the bottom of the tier list, worst killer in the game.
The fact that you can inflict wounds so fast and keep the survivors busy mending themselves up is great, the fact that he can synergize this base kit delay with thanatophobia is great.
I believe his base kit just needs a change in numbers, the power takes a long time to recharge, fatigue is very high, the fact that you get fatigued if you miss a hit during frenzy, Or that hitting a survivor with the basic attack reduces his power meter doesn't help either. But if these issues are fixed (and his addons have a complete change) i believe that Legion can become a solid killer. Maybe not good, but just solid.
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I personaly think the worst killer is Trapper since he has so much counterplay, SWF destroys him more than any other killer and he needs to waste lot of time setting up traps during the game.
But I think Legion is in top 3 worst for sure.
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Legion isn't weak it's just that they're power is pretty pointless.
Their power is super hardcore countered by survivors playing the game the most efficient way possible aka splitting up and doing different gens around the map.
Survivors doing this not only add more places that the killer has to pressure because they're all fan out so It reduces the chance of them all cramping on one side of the map and giving the killer a three gen strat unintentionally.
if they play like that the Legion can't chain their power so they literally become a M1 killer with no power
Post edited by Volfawott on8 -
Legion is the only killer in the entire game that does not have a power to help actually down someone. They're awful. Even if we compare to Myers in the sense that Legion can keep people injured, at least Myers has an extremely small TR to down people.
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Ghostface is the worst imo
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I would honestly agree if it weren't for Circle of Healing (which shouldn't even be a perk to begin with).
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Yeah Legion is quite underrated. Mostly cause people are godawefull at them.
Entering fatigue in front of healthy survivors, not using their power anymore once everyone is injured, 2 hooking everybody despite the fact they have a litteral sonar locator to find the survivors closest to death.
For a killer that's suppose to be so "braindead" a lot of people are playing them so wrong
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Legion literally takes 5 seconds to learn. Find person, frenzy, look around for shiny red things and go to them. I don't think you can even be bad at Legion, they're just bad themselves.
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I'm only irked by the long fatigue. Once that's dealt with, he's decent.
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He’s pretty terrible, but I think ghostface is worse.
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Circle of Healing actually doesn't hurt Legion near as bad as anyone thinks it does.
Think about it. Legion can take Survivors from Healthy to Injured in 5 seconds pretty consistently. They also inflict Deep Wound. So you leave them be after that, they go recover at CoH. Not including travel time, they've still spent 28s recovering from something that took you 5ish seconds. You're still massively coming out ahead there. In fact, CoH can actually help you as Legion because it encourages the Survivors to waste those 16s healing up when you barely care if they do instead of staying injured, slamming gens, and playing super cautiously.
Now if you said Wraith was getting wrecked by Circle of Healing then yes. 100% agree with you.
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unrelated, but are you scott for real?
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yessir, as noted by my very low opinion of Legion
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That's a fair point, but at the same time, if you're going against survivors that are able to consistently loop M1 killers, Legion will be ran by them for more of the duration the other survivors mend and heal with CoH, and then they can do a gen while you pick up the surv, carry them to a hook, hook them, etc. Due to the inconsistency of their power being incredibly map-reliant and easily countered by splitting up, if you have happened to only injure one survivor, there will be 2 other survivors doing gens, one of them getting chased, and the other mending and healing on a CoH totem. Even if you injure 2 survivors, those two would probably heal each other up with the CoH bonus, and then immediately do a gen while the other guy is doing a gen.
Outside of CoH I do believe Legion is a lot stronger than given credit for, having built-in game slowdown and guaranteed first hits, as well as somewhat of an instadowning ability. However, I believe they would still be bottom 5 even without CoH due to being reliant on balanced maps as well as not having anything to help them down survivors while injured, but CoH really seems to have affected them.
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@Veinslay Well they're changing both ghostface and Legion. both of them are true bottom of barrel. I hope they play unsafe killer changes with these two killers for once.
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You are correct that not having anything to help get downs is Legion's main weakness... But anyone playing Legion should know that and bring perks to help with that. If you don't... Well... What are you doing?
Also, Frenzy is not what I would call a map dependant power. It is instead dependent on the Survivors positioning. The map can influence that, but I've had Survivors group up against my Legion on Mother's Dwelling. No idea why, but they did.
Also, for me personally, Legion works just as well as before CoH came out. The only difference is that Thana isn't in my builds anymore.
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After putting maybe 300 hours into Legion alone, I can for sure say they are the worst Killer.
They have probably the lowest skillcap, the only power that can't down people (or result in them being downed) and they actively encourage Survivors to spread out and do gens separately, which not only CRIPPLES their power, but is also THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO HAPPEN AS A KILLER.
They are a poorly deisgned Killer at a fundamental level and they need to completely rework him.
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No that is not true at all. Legion is not weak because he cannot get more than 1 hit with Frenzy, or of the fatigue or anything else. Legion is so weak cuz he has no ability to down survivors, this is the most important aspect of any Killer... to down and therefore end chases quickly.
You can slow down and injure as many survivors as you want, it will mean nothing if you cannot down and hook them.
Legion needs something like a second ability OR frenzy should be able to down somehow survivors.
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With that logic trapper takes 3 seconds to learn. Place trap, hope someone steps in it.
Myers wouldn't even take a single second. Look at people, stab them
It's always easy to oversimplify things.
Judging the amount of distance you can make, knowing when you should or shouldn't use FF on injured survivors and actually processing the information you get instead of " look for nearest red shiny and go to it" are all mistakes i see Legion players make and are things that make a difference once you start paying attention to them.
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You'd have made a better case if you wouldn't have mentioned Trapper. You've got a point with Myers, but Trapper actually takes some knowledge.
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I know trapper takes knowledge that was the point. That you can always oversimplify things but that it doesn't mean there isn't some nuance to it.
Even Myers needs to know where he can stalk and where he can't cause some places are a huge timewaste to stalk in
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I look forward to his rework, the camera will probably be locked into place during frenzy and control like a tugboat.
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There's really not a lot to learn with Legion that you wouldn't already be applying with other Killers.
He's purely M1 with slightly better information gathering.
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They are the only killer in the game whose power doesn't help in downing survivors. Even Wraith has a lunge, Trapper has traps, Myers can vault insanely fast with Bambozlee, etc. Their entire kit is countered by simply playing efficiently (aka spliting up) and they take a stun longer Nurse and Blight for using their power. In fact just describing Legion's power sounds dumb: you get to run slightly faster for 10 seconds and get to have some information you can already get from perks like Discordance and Tinkerer.
Edit: they are also among the most garbage killers to play against. Every game against Legion is a snoozefest because looping pure M1 killers is boring and Deep Wounds have to be one of the most annoying mechanics ever added. Definitely needs a total rework.
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legion's strength depends on survivor skill and the map. if survivors group up and spend time healing they pay for it, but that's not a good playstyle if you're wanting to win games. large and multi-floor maps are hell for legion.
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And yet there are so many Legion players who misjudge their distance causing them to fatigue in front of healthy survivors , who don't utilize their information gathering at all and just go to the nearest red blimp and who never use their power again once everybody is injured even when they are chasing in the strongest unmindgame-able structures of the map.
I agree that Legion is among the easier killers to learn
I disagree with the notion that there is nothing to learn.
A Legion who plays their first match is not going to play the same as a Legion's 1000th match who bothered to put the effort to learn them. Regardless of how many m1-killers they played before
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Finally someone who perfectly thinks
+1
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It still does hurt him tho. It's still better for him than survivors who just never heal and do gens, but it is way worse than if they would heal normally (no self-healing).
If they use CoH, it's 16 seconds of 1 survivor instead of 2.
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Problem is that Legion is noob stomp killer in my eyes.
New players are going to have problems with him, because they can't split well, they are not used to stay injured, waste pallets while healthy etc.
but that just doesn't work against decent players.
I had games where I just never got any chain hit with Frenzy and his power is just bad 1v1, yeah you have free first hit, but then you are m1 killer without a power after 4 seconds stun.
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If that’s Scott Jund, I’m Queen Elizabeth. Even if the real Scott posted it probably be pretty something stupid still.
Also regarding the OPs statement, I actually agree that they aren’t the WORST and I would put them above Clown, Trickster, and even Plague. But ofc I wouldn’t say they’re stronger than Blight, Ghost face, or maybe even Death Slinger.
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Did you just try to tell Plague is a bad killer?
And Ghostface, Deathslinger are supposed to be good?
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I said Plague is worse than Legion and that Ghost face and death slinger are better than Legion. Re-read. But anyways Plague is a bad killer yes, and Death slinger and Ghost face while also not the best are good.
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I kinda expected you are kidding...
Plague is way better than any killer you listed. Plague is better than most killers in dbd since CoH and her buffs.
Deathslinger got way worse since nerfs.
Except plague, all killers you listed are just bad and probably only clown is worse than Legion.
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Think about it this way.
Which of the following sounds better for the Killer?
- Someone spending 12 seconds to mend then they just hop on gens again while injured.
- Someone spending 28 seconds to fully heal before getting on generators, but you can just injure them again in about 5 seconds flat regardless of where you find them again.
It's #2. #2 is better for the killer. #2 gives the killer more time to put some other survivor in the dirt and on a hook. Sure, a theoretical #3 where someone spends 44 seconds to fully recover is even better but that just didn't happen most of the time. On the other hand, that 16 second heal from CoH looks good enough to do it against Legion even though it isn't. Hell, a lot of people on here have claimed that holding a 3 gen against Survivors armed with CoH is impossible... but the thing is, I've done it as Legion. How? Simply because they actually can injure fast enough to make CoH's ridiculous healing efficiency not matter.
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What? Are you trolling? Plague is one of the worst killers in the game. If you don’t cleanse, she’s an M1 killer. If you do cleanse and the team has an IQ higher than 30 it’s after most if not all gens are done away from gens/exit gates making her helpless. I’m sure your trolling so I’m just gonna resume what I was doing.
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Which of the following sounds better for the Killer?
- Someone spending 28 (12+16) seconds to fully heal before getting on generators.
- Someone spending 40 (8+16+16) seconds to fully heal before getting on generators.
I am not saying CoH is super bad for Legion compare to Hag, or Wraith. But most survivors just can't play whole game injured and have to heal at some point, where it's just better for you if they heal with someone else than self-heal.
Also if you find them healing together, easy chain hits, but that is not going to happen when everyone can self-heal.
and if those survivors split, you are going to waste more than 5 seconds on that. You don't really gain that much time, if you never get chain hits.
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lol... you really are serious, funny.
So if you don't cleanse, she is m1 killer. Hmm, no stun anywhere, 0 time wasted, iron will doesn't work.
Seems like already better version of Legion. If survivors don't heal he is m1 killer too, but he gets stunned for it and they get speed boost.
Plague is basically better version, if she finds survivor in open = dead, survivors don't get any speed boost, so she is basically exposed killer at that point.
Survivors can't work together on gens, can't unhook if they are healthy and want to stay that way and she starts with 1 fountain + addons, where if she gets bloody puke, it's really good. Also CoH and medkits are useless.
No matter how I look at it, she is just way better Legion.
Btw good luck trying to convince soloQ to not cleanse...
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Yeah... here's the thing. 80% of the time Survivors just would never heal against Legion before CoH came out. The only time you're going to get that 40 second delay is if you've stacked your perk loadout with obvious perks that heavily punish staying injured. I'm talking something nutty like my old main Legion build with Thanatophobia, Trail of Torment, and Monitor and Abuse. With that build? Yeah I could pretty reliably convince Survivors to heal or punish them if they didn't... so much so that my 4th perk in that loadout was Nurse's Calling and it was 100% worth running that.
How many Legion players are going all in on getting Survivors to heal in spite of it being a terrible idea? I don't know exactly because I don't end up against Legion all that often, but I'm going to go out on a short limb and say very few do that.
To be honest, I would argue that Legion handles CoH better than the majority of killers. The only ones who handle it better are insta down killers who don't let survivors hold W after the first hit or hyper mobility killers who can catch up so fast to someone holding W that it doesn't matter much.
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Shorten the fatigue. Increase power duration. Remove the power gauge reduction on normal hits. Then maybe he will get close to C tier.
Also make scratch marks visible again just to give him some QoL.
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######### duration, I want speed! I wanna be Legion the Hedgehog.
but otherwise yes.
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So, one thing I do want to mention...
Overall Plague is stronger than Legion, but Legion's M1 game is actually stronger than Plague's. They're shorter, quieter, inflict deep wound which darkens the Survivor's screens, and don't leave a trail of incense smoke behind them at all times. That makes pulling off M1 mind games as them quite a bit easier than doing similar mind games on Plague.
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You must be baiting, nobody actually thinks Plague is anywhere near bad. You CAN make a case for average, but most would disagree.
My theory is either you've never played Plague or are like all the people that are saying Artist sucks right now: You're very bad with her.
You may also be ignorant of her qualities. I'll name some:
-You start with one pool of red puke by default, which means whether they cleanse or not you have the potential to sweep if they're all sick in one wave.
-Addons allow you to have 3 red pukes by default.
-Have a free NOED on everyone which means unless they cleanse they can't safely unhook and can be easily intercepted for a swift snowball. Legion cannot do this as they can just heal and go save without consequence.
-As mentioned by someone else, No stun, no crappy cooldown, far superior tracking, downing power with insta-down in the open and red puke anywhere else, nullifies a wide range of perks and items.
In what possible universe is Plague worse than Legion? Plague is better than probably 3/4 of the roster right now. I personally think you're baiting but I'm sure some naive people will believe it, so my time probably isn't entirely wasted.
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Yeah, she is super tall vommy mommy.
Thing is, Legion is just M1 killer against injured survivors, nothing more to it. That is when survivors don't heal, if they heal, then he will just use his power again to gain little bit of time, that's it.
Plague always have a chance for Corrupt Purge and that is just really good. You have decent range, you can down even healthy survivors really fast, you can down multiple of them, just huge snowball potencial.
Also she starts with 1 pool + addons, so she just always have chance to use it, every game.
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yes, 6.0 or close would be great.
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You also can puke on objects, so free detection at start of the game.
You can basically injure survivors across the map. Not many killers can do that...
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Legion isn't a good Killer by any means, but Trapper and Pig are way worse
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I mean... yes but also potentially no. Because Legion has a lot of built in slow down and information, you can absolutely afford to bring multiple chase perks as them and they work so much better on them because you'll be using them vs injured Survivors. End Fury, Coup De Grace, Bamboozle, Play With Your Food... most killers are kinda iffy running all of those perks because... sure they can give you a hit, but that's not amazing if you need 2 and the info and regression you can get from the standard killer meta is usually more useful.
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I’m assuming your mmr is either EXTREMELY low or your trolling like the other guy. I’m leaning towards the Latter because the mental gymnastics you were performing in these “points” made 0 sense. I’ll address them quickly then move on from this thread.
-Starting off with a red pool isn’t a game changer. It’s a gamble if you will even get value out of it depending on its spawn and if you get stunned, your done.
-So you are trying to say Add ons are needed to make this killer good????? Lmao yikes. Shot yourself in the foot on this one.
-You don’t get a free NOED. That isn’t NOED. As I’ve stated previously tho the reading comprehension skills may be lacking, the survivors can cleanse away from the hooked survivor and exit gates forcing her to either walk across the map or camp while the other survs get the save and leave with more than likely a 4 man. Another horrendous point.
-What tracking? She has 0 tracking. Legion does circles around her tracking wise. The only tracking she has is an IRI add on. Not to mention she has NO map mobility what-so-ever unlike Legion. She doesn’t “nullify” anything. The mental gymnastics you are performing are getting even worse.
In what possible universe is Plague better than Legion? She’s a D tier killer at BEST. As I said I’m pretty sure your trolling but I wanted to address just in case any naive people actually think you were in any way correct. I’d suggest raising your mmr and gaining more game knowledge. Moving on.
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Trapper is map dependent though. The new artist map is terrible for trapper
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Being injured is not that scary against legion.
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So you're pulling a "No u" on the fact that I called out your bait and now calling my post bait. Your wit clearly dwarfs anything I can dish out, truly. The only jab I had toward your skill is your knowledge of Plague, which the only explanation is either you're terrible at her or don't play her (ignorance). Both reasonable when people have such low opinions on killers widely considered strong by good players. You have nothing to work on regarding my skill beyond maybe pulling a second "No u" regarding Legion. Which you wouldn't be half wrong, I don't have as much experience with them. Mostly because they don't need much to get good with them, unlike Plague.
-Yeah no, you're not going to get pallet stunned as Plague with red unless it's your first games. Next.
-No, I did not say that. You are lying if you are portraying my argument in such a manner. I said addons only further cover this weakness your emphasized on your post, but it is already covered anyway by default.
-The scenario you present is an endgame one. What about when they cleanse when there are still 4 gens left? Sure, cleansing at the edge of the map is a good strat. But now she has at least 2 red pukes. More than enough to steamroll a game if she has pressure. The cost of cleansing is obvious and refutes your argument of 'If survivors don't cleanse ...' well if they don't, unhooks are difficult. If they do, they risk a very, VERY dangerous red puke.
-Tracking can be: Auditory via sick noises countering iron will entirely. Visual by the green 'air' they leave around, a keen observer can see it in the air briefly. Blood trails are permanent if they don't cleanse, making stuff like shadowstep useless. She has an addon that allows to see auras ANYWHERE when they puke (Sure it's an addon, but in that department too, she outshines legion so hard). Infecting items allows you to also determine if survivors interacted with an object, such as a generator or an exit gate which can be used to determine where survivors are.
Also Legion's Mobility is mediocre. I will say they do have more than Plague does. But that's it. That's all they have over her. That and maybe light tracking they can barely put into use since they won't be downing good survivors often.
100% Bait with that 'raise your MMR' line. But you're blatantly misinforming people in the process (especially in the tracking part), so I'm definitely going to correct you despite my better judgement.
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