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Just like Survivors do, Killers have totem countering builds as well.
Just a thought I had, I still think CoH needs a healing boost nerf (more specifically healing in general needs a nerf and has for a while) but I really do not think boons in general are bad, in fact they are a healthy addition to the game. You only see CoH complained about. This doesn't make boons bad design, just means healing is busted (most good players know that anyways).
But also people act like they can't do anything against boons which just feels wrong. Ever since boons have been added, I haven't ever really had a horrible match. I've had tougher matches that is for sure, but I know how to react. I've also realized that in a meta change for survivors, it means you have to adapt as killer and there are certainly builds that can punish boons and make them more of a detriment for survivors.
One of the biggest ones is just a simple Thrill and Undying. Thrill is huge value and it basically means survivors have to cleanse instead of blessing because if they do, it is too much of a time sink. Throw on pentimento, bam extra gen slowdown too. Throw on any gen regression? makes the build more viable. Even throw on haunted and it is huge value.
Just silly seeing so much of the community act like killer is impossible now when players that either have been playing for a long time or practice and try to improve don't suffer or have matches like that. Sure everyone has bad matches, but it is always healthy to see where you can improve and realize where you made your own mistakes.
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Boons just added something else for me to micro-manage as Killer and I'm just not into it.
I enjoy chasing people and mindgaming and strategically outplaying my opponents, not micro-managing 20 variables to have a chance to win.
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I totally get it, I just never saw it as a micromanaging horrible stress on my end.
I see that viewpoint though, I usually see it more as a side objective for the survivor. That is more what it is like after all, especially since it takes time for them to do it, and I can either ignore them or stomp them fast.
Just trying to give some ideas to people who want to worry less about them, I've been using thrill a lot and it is hilarious the amount of survivors that just stop doing boons.
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100% agree. I'm still a defender of boons, they were a healthy addition that is more of a side objective for survivor than it ever will be for killer.
People give examples like RPD or Midwich but are those boon problems or bad map design? I think the main problem with boons is the fact that they highlight bad designs brighter. CoH isn't really op, but healing is MORE op with it, shadowstep isnt op, but bad maps make it so
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The problem with e.g. Thrill is that for some blasted reason it's also a Hex. Why is Thrill not just an effect that applies to totems based on how many are standing?
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Neither did OoO and it was nerfed because it was unfun to play against.
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It doesn't really matter if you think two perks being compared is comparable or not. The fact remains that it is true. OoO was nerfed due to being unfun. Simple as that.
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So, why was it nerfed? Enlighten everyone.
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So it was nerfed because the stats said that those people escaped a lot, right?
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I've seen the screencap a lot of Almo once stating here that OoO was okay because statistically people who ran it didn't have a higher escape rate. Which ignored that it was not fun for people to play against and that it could destroy specific killers like Trapper. I'm not sure the exact time he made the post and don't care to scroll through his post history, though.
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I totally agree, it makes no sense to be a hex lol
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The problem being that Survivors set the pace of the game, and the current meta means Killers have to claw for every second of the match just to kill, never mind having to find that CoH Boon that's giving 3.5 second heals.
On top of that, Hex: Penti was dropped just after Boons, and it's literally the only perk in the game I think of that gets countered by ignoring it. Let me explain:
- Penti cannot be applied if Survivors never Cleanse. Meaning, if Survivors ignore totems, the Killer can NEVER APPLY PENTI.
- Survivors can apply Boons without Cleansing. Meaning, again; Penti can never be applied.
- Survivors can apply Boons OVER Hex totems. Meaning they never have to Cleanse. Meaning Penti can never be applied.
- Killers can Snuff totems, which does not CLEANSE totems. Which means they can't even Snuff a totem, and then apply Penti.
- Unlike Hexes, which are 1 and done (for the most part), Boons can be reapplied forever. A Killer can NEVER shut down a Boon permanently.
- Most Hexes aren't even worth the 1-and-done Hex status they have. Every Boon is. Yet, again; Boons can be reapplied. Because screw Killers.
So this is why I hate Boons: They are stronger than Hexes. They override Hexes. Killers don't have the time to cleanse then repeatedly. And certain perks (cough Penti cough) Show how glaringly weak Hexes are compared to Boons.
Meaning the devs literally took a Killer mechanic, made it 10 times more powerful, then gave it to Survivors.
I don't want to scream the tired old 'Devs have a Survivor bias', but either this is a bias, or the devs have literally 0 idea how their game functions any more. It's one or the other; bias, or lack of awareness.
Because no one who has any clue how DBD functions would have said 'Hey! You know what Killers need? You know, the people asking for SURVIVORS to have a time sink because gen speeds can go under 4 minutes? A time sink of their own! Based off a Killer power that we will horribly unbalance before giving it to Survivors, just to ensure Killers are forced to do this time sink! Survivors can chose to not cleanse, but if Killers don't Snuff Circle of OP; they will not win! Oh yeah; and while we're giving Survivors Hexes (but better); why don't we allow them to apply these better effects as many times as they want! Am I brilliant or what?'
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I personally am fine with boons, while 14 seconds isn't a lot, doing it even a couple times stacks up, including travel time when not on gens.
That doesn't mean CoH is fine though but it is more of a factor of healing being ridiculous, and it always has been. I think if healing got adjusted it would be fine. In terms of them not being destroyed upon being snuffed, I think that would make them really weak and people would go back to the usual 4 meta perks they use. After playing for 4 and some years I'm happy they have something incentive to do a side objective now.
Also I always thought people comparing them to hexes were funny when the only comparison they have is being on totems. Hexes are map wide effects that are activated instantly and provide (usually) strong effects that the killer has access too without actually having to interact in any way. It is why Ruin is so good. Boons on the other hand only effect a limited radius and requires the survivor to find the totem and apply it, and while they can reapply it even after the killer snuffs it, it is time wasted if they repeatedly do it.
Again I totally understand the hate of CoH and healing does need touched, but no other boon is really mind-numbingly broken. I don't think boons are a problem, just already existing bad designs.
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The logic behind 'The Survivors spent 14 seconds Booning a totem' is wrong, BTW.
Because the Killer has to spend time finding and Snuffing the totem. So the Survivors did not actually lose time, because the Killer did not gain that time to hunt them down, as he loses time to Snuffing.
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It's worse as a non hex 9 times out of 10. It being a "dummy" hex is part of the slowdown of the perk.
With normal hexes, thrill not being a hex wastes a lot less time then it being a hex.
Only time this doesn't apply is hex:plaything and pentimento cause they can appear after thrill is gone
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I wouldn't really say boons are stronger than hexes, seeing as a good ruin and a killer that is competent can still change a match in a huge way, and killers don't have to even interact with a totem to get the map-wide, instant effects.
Also I thought everyone came to an agreement that Pentimento was a good perk, you just shouldn't use it by itself. Combine it with plaything or even thrill, anything that encourages cleansing, and I can usually get huge value. Also while doing one boon once isn't that huge of a time sink, if people keep blessing repeatedly the time does add up.
I just think saying boons are a killer mechanic but 10 times as powerful is false seeing as killer hexes can still have game-changing or game-ending effects, while only really CoH is good out of all the boons. That doesn't mean Boons are OP, it means healing speeds are busted, and I don't know how long you've played for but healing speeds have been busted for a long time, now people just really see why that is.
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The killer also doesn't take 14 seconds to snuff and finding boons are easy.
If you go out of your way to find boons instead of chasing survivors you are just playing wrong, you should just play normal and take care of boons as you come across them, it is pretty effective and like, no time is wasted. If a survivor even does 3 boons, that is almost half a gen of time. Not to mention again that survivors have to leave gens and find totems too, while killers hear them blaringly loud and can also just, keep playing the game if you need to.
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But the thing is; Survivors don't HAVE to cleanse. They can just apply Boon over the Hex. Boom; no more Hex, no cleansing happened, no Penti can be applied.
That's one of my biggest complaints out of two:
- Survivors literally can override Hexes without Cleansing. This means Boons are 'Stronger' than Hexes because they erase Hexes. This also hard counters Penti; no Cleanse, no Penti.
- Killers Snuff totems, which just makes them Dull again. Not Cleansed. And No Cleansed; no Penti.
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Yeah but if they want to bless over a hex, it takes 24 seconds. Combine with thrill and even if they get rid of thrill first, that blessing takes 36 seconds.
Also again loads of builds incentivise cleansing instead of blessing. If you have penti and something else but they aren't ever cleansing, may as well count that as penti doing something, they are wasting time doing so many boons or blessing hexes. If you just run pentimento and nothing else, don't know why it is surprising they aren't cleansing. If boons didn't exist, they wouldn't cleanse either. Atleast with boons they are doing SOMETHING else other than gens.
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Blessing a hex normally takes 28 seconds (wiki lies)
Thrill has a 50% speed penalty so kt doesn't add time to totems but slows survivors cleansing them down
Which means that blessing a hex with thrill at 5 stacks takes 56 seconds.
So yes thrill extremly discourages blessing hexes
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Are you sure it is 28 seconds? BHVR themselves said it was 24 unless I'm misremembering.
Even so, like you said it is HUGE slowdown if they want to bless, running anti boon stuff either means they will stick to gens instead of doing boons but your hexes stay up, they will do boons and give you a huge advantage, or they will cleanse and you lose your hexes but they still waste loads of time and if you have pentimento you get value.
People act like killer has no control with killer can realistically put survivors into a lot of lose lose situations.
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I think the whole argument is null because the killer basically has to dedicate the entire build to potentially and ineffectively counting 1 perk that may or may not exist. It's like telling people to run small game 24/7 because they ate NOED 1 game out of 10.
There are plenty of killer characters who are weak enough they are forced to run full meta perks in order to stand a chance against a good team. Running a suboptimal build will usually result in them getting crushed, boons "countered" or not.
And to clarify that, I don't think adding a few more seconds onto a boon totem (potentially only 1 time for the whole match if thrill goes first) is a "counter" in any way, shape, or form. It's just rolling the dice on a totem RNG build that will be gone by mid to late game and it might not have even done anything for you. Ruin/corrupt/pop/etc will give you way more time back and they are not tied to any perk.
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Last time i checked it was anyway.
Don't have friends that play this game so i can't check it myself but i'm pretty sure it still 28 seconds
If someone could double check it, it would be pretty nice tbh
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Survivors have way more perk slots to dedicate to managing totems than killers do. A survivor running an anti-totem perk dedicates 1/16 of the survivor team's resources to totem management. A killer running an anti-totem perk dedicates 1/4 of their resources to it. That's not a good equivalence when those perk slots were already highly needed for other things.
Add in that every single anti-boon perk is a hex and can be removed, while boons can only be removed by killing the survivor who has them, and yeah.
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”In order to prevent camping, we made killers 1 shot survivors if they are outside of a 25 meter radius of the hook”
I wonder how that would go
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So you are asking me to dedicate Thrill and Penimento (half my perks slot) to counter the possibilty of boons. Is this for real ?
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The wiki also says 28 seconds. I think you should visit it first before saying stuff that isn't true.
This part has been unchanged for at least a month.
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Coh makes Gens safer and faster. You heal in half the time and are injured less on gens as a byproduct.
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Yeah I hate to say this but then you haven't ran into a 4 man with 3 coh repeatedly booning the upstairs macmillan totem or the rpd library totem cause those both take at least 30-50 secs to get to and are a huge waste of time
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First its 24 seconds and at a 50% increase would make it 36 your thinking of a 100% increase.
It takes 14 seconds to bless a boon that anyone on the team can use to remove pressure that the killer had. It's not like everytime someone wants to heal at a boon it needs to be reblessed that's where the problem is if one person spends 14 seconds blessing a totem the rest of the team can use it by themselves to reverse the pressure as many times as they want untell the killer temporary removes it.
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Even killer's perks that effect boons are countered/destroyed by boons. The killer's counter only lasts as long as it takes for survivors to find the hex, then your without perks and survivors have full use.
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It's 28 seconds, the wiki is even correct now
and i guess bolding it in my original comment didn't help so let me make it even more clear
50% speed penalty
Not increased totem times, but slowing survivors down. Slowing something down by 50% is the equivalant to increasing it's time by 100%
And 28/0.5= 56 seconds
Just look at selfcare, it also adds a 50% slowdown to healing. And if a normal heal takes 16 seconds how long does selfcare take then? 24 or 32 seconds
How is it that with self care everybody just accepted this but with thrill everybody gets it wrong
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If they take 30-50 seconds to get too, they take that same time and more to reach as a survivor.
Also again, if there are 3 people doing boons, you are getting a lot of free pressure and should take advantage of it. Even on those ######### maps, you can most definitely turn the game around if you are good
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I am quite aware, but even making one survivor spend 56 seconds on boons is huge slowdown and if you aren't taking advantage of it then you need to rewatch some matches and see where you are making mistakes.
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Even then, a killer does not need 4 gen slowdown to do good, it is why most builds also have 1 or 2 info perks. Replace those with anti boon perks since killers act like they are impossible to deal with, and they arent anymore. Loads of builds have come out to be heavy anti boon perks.
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Expect for the fact that there's one killer and 3 booners they just rotate placing it and 2-3 people are always on gens come on man that wasn't that hard to think about.
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There's slowdown perks, there's chase perks, there's lethality perks, there's info perks. I've experimented with anti-boon perks, but I just don't have the freedom to give up half my build for perks that will be gone within two minutes anyway.
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So in this scenario are you just afk or something? Usually in a match, atleast one survivor at minimum should constantly be pressured, either by being chased or hooked. If someone is hooked, then that should be 2 people pressured (either by you chasing another, or another survivor needing to go to the hook). If someone is also booning during all of this, it is just 1 extra person not doing gens, even if it is for a short time. Learn how to pressure and improve in the game, rewatching your matches can help.
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You won't hook anyone tho because they all just run to the boon and heal it's hard to explain unless you played vs it
Let me put it like this if you played a 4.4 killer like hag or DS or trickster vs me and my squad we would always have a boon you would never be able to snuff them all
How is that so hard to imagine
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It isn't hard to imagine lmao I've been a killer main for 4 and some years. I guarantee they aren't healing in a nanosecond, because so far the fastest that is capable is close to 4 seconds and that is only with an entire build dedicated to healing.
If you are playing a killer like Deathslinger or Trickster, than your power is based around getting quick downs. Boons should especially not be a huge problem to those killers, since your playstyle tends to be chasing a survivor until they are downed, not hit and run. With Hag, you are a strong defense killer and while they will be able to heal after each hit, your defense will be hard to break if you have a good web perimeter set up.
Not hard to imagine, I'm fulling getting what you are saying lmao it just sounds like a newer player having struggles. If you'd like to drop some gameplay of yours I'm totally willing to watch and give pointers. Even drop your hours or anything and I can help
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and that is totally fine, I'm not saying that this is the only way to deal with boons, just a pretty standard and easy way. I honestly play like I always do, I just have my gen defense and like some slowdown and I still do fine, it is all about practice.
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Defs not the issue I have more hours then you lmaoo
Just play my 4 man come on bro what are you afraid of if it's that easy
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I don't mind if you have more hours, that is sweet and I'm happy for you, and I'm not interested in playing KYF, just wanted to know why you have such a hard time, other long time players really aren't :/
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Also if you have more hours I would love to see what you are at, you can drop images
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I find I usually don't have issues dealing with one boon, but when there's several boons across the map, or the survivors bring a map offering with a boon spot that can be abused, I'm just super screwed and I can't keep up. (Unless I'm Vommy Mommy, then everything's coolsies.) But I can't sacrifice half of my perks on the chance that survivors are going to send me to RCPD and play a hell game.
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eh then those aren't really boon problems, those are just bad game design problems. Bad maps will be bad maps
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That's just completely false. The idea of boons is that survivors now have another objective they can do instead of gens. But first of all, it's optional, not a mandatory second objective.
And second of all, it still arguably wastes more time of a killer to get rid of the boon totem than for a survivor to boon a totem, depeding on where the boon totem is located. Because there is only one killer but four survivors.
However, the big problem here is Circle of Healing. The time wasted to boon a totem is nothing compared to the time it saves for survivors when they heal each other. CoH buys survivors so much more extra time and takes a lot of the killers potential pressure away, the extra objective of booning a totem is nothing compared to that.
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The multiple CoH issue kills me on every map, though. They set them up before touching gens, so I don't find them before the game starts in earnest, and I just have to deal with survivors healing at warp speed everywhere because there's no way to handle the boons.
Multiple Shadow Steps can be pretty insane too, but only on indoor maps.
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I guess i just play different, I always see that as a positive thing for me, it means in the first 20 seconds of the match people were doing boons instead of gens.
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The problem with that is that since you (...or at least I) patrol gens, don't know where non-hex totems are, and blessing has a very quiet and short-distance sound cue, you generally don't find anyone when they're off on totems and it ends up being a dead 15-30 seconds for you - the exception being on maps like Autohaven and MacMillan where most of the totem spawns are right next to gens or herp derp exposed. It's the Corrupt Intervention issue all over again, except it's way shorter and the benefit is better.
The way boons were designed implies they're supposed to have dynamic counterplay by killers, but I just find that doesn't pan out in practice and they can be much too oppressive. I don't think you're going to change my mind on this - Thrill hasn't done enough for me, and I've had a slew of matches where I got throttled and could not for the life of me figure out what I was supposed to have done.
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It's still unbalanced for two reasons:
1) You're suggesting a killer bases half their build (two perk slots) on countering Boons. Remember, if just one survivor brings one perk to counter Hex's, that's a benefit for the whole team who then don't need to bring any Hex countering perks.
2) Boons are infinite with no cool-down. Let's say a killer brings Ruin+Undying and they get cleansed within the first minute or two of the game (pretty common in higher rank matches), they have two useless perk slots for the rest of the match - they're essentially wasted. If a killer snuff's a Boon, the survivor can just bless another totem straight away. Comparing Hex's and Boons is completely futile because they're simply incomparable.
I agree Boons have added a new dynamic to the game and are really cool, but I can't help but feel they're way too OP - particularly CoH. There needs to be a cool-down, and I think the healing speed should be slowed down a little.
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