Just like Survivors do, Killers have totem countering builds as well.
Comments
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I am a killer main and I generally support boon totems, but not in it's current forms. My 2 main problems with boons are:
1) CoH! So I've played a fair share with CoH and against CoH. My main problem with it is that the best strategy against it is to proxycamp and hardcore tunnel. I have found playing and playing against the hit n' run type of killers very enjoyable, this perk single-handedly removes it from the game, promoting playstyles I don't enjoy. Now, of course, this is a personal preference. My secondary problem: Imagine removing the healing speed boost completely from the perk. Literally, just let anyone heal themselves in 16 seconds. I'd still use the perk. It's just great even without it, which makes me think it's overtuned.
2) This problem is a more serious one because it is about boons in general. There is a serious issue with boons and that is snuffing the boons. Basically, snuffing the boons makes almost no sense. It's not time efficient in any way. In some maps it's not even time-efficient if there are only 2 survivors remaining (talking about maps like RPD, and other multi-leveled maps). If I was the game designer, I'd make snuffing boons more rewarding. The easiest way to do it is to add an X second (I'd say somewhere between 60 and 90) cooldown to the perk after it's been snuffed. This way you can also try to rebless a new totem if you think the killer will try to snuff it, or wait out the cooldown.
Now the fact that the devs did not say anything about boons, makes me think they are fine with them and it's a bit weird. They are actively making it harder to down survivors (making it longer to down someone). I like it, this has the potential to make chases longer and more interactive, however, this way the killers will be 100% snowball dependent and without anything added to killers, or anything that slows down the game more, I'm not really sure how killers will be able to keep up in the long term.
Then again, Boon: Shadowstep, for example, is one of the best-designed perks added into the game in my opinion, and I currently use it every game to test the ######### out of it. It's amazing!
Please share your thoughts
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The issue is that there is basically no reason not to boon when injured. It is literally faster to boon a dull and heal yourself than self care. Your entire team can get quick heals forever until it's snuffed which if it's far away from active gens and the killer doesn't have mobility is ggs. Tag pressure is almost non-existent now as well since if you don't commit to a chase they will run to a boon and heal themselves fast while their teammates crank out gens.
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If you bring a medkit, the base time to heal is 16 seconds. Doing a boon and CoH is 14 seconds, followed by the 16 seconds needed to heal. If you combine a medkit, with doing a boon, it is 22 seconds, still slower than just a medkit. If you boon a hex then self heal, it is 44 seconds. combine with a medkit, it is 36 seconds. Sure, next time you are injured, you will get a faster heal because you don't have to boon, but that is taking into account that the killer will never snuff the boon
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Running hexes means you run less gen defense skills meaning gens will pop left and right faster. Just because 1 survivor is booning somewhere doesnt mean the other 3 arent doing gens.
Some killers struggle a lot more with these boons than others. Slow M1 killers are almost non existent nowdays at least in my games. All i see is ranged +Nurse and Blight.
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Because boons just made it safer to slam gens, the killer either has to commit to chase and lose or leave chase and loose since you can just go heal for 8 seconds and get right back on a gen.
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Some people love to be overdramatic about everything. I've said it from the start and I'll say it again, boons aren't ridiculously over-powered.
It's as simple as that.
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The concept of Boons are fine. You dont see people complaining about Exponential. Boons needs a limitation, though. It's also poorly designed in regards to verticality.
What's not fine though is Shadowstep. That perk can go to hell.
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But that time penalty only applies to the one putting the Boon into place. The other three survivors don't face that initial time penalty nor do they pay a perk penalty for essentially getting free perks.
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I love how people think spending 16 seconds blessing a totem is such a massive net gain for the killer.
That is 4 seconds of killer time. You spent 4 seconds of killer time to grant your team with infinite medkits.
lmfao very balanced and fair
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This ^
Other 2 Boons are manage-able because survivors have to actively run Killer in Boon range to make it work. Though Shadowstep is upper hand annoying because survivors can easily juke Killer, if killer snuff Boon, survivors would leave the title and escape.
Coh however, survivor can make it work as simple as bless a Coh next to a completed Gen, where Killer will never-ever go to that area again. And survivors can simply run the title that not close to the Boon, and it would live forever
-16sec in exchange of +8sec every healing state.
Coh must either remove Self care or We will make it.
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i love how people act like once someone does a boon, all of their healing time and other boon placement times do not exist. While 14 seconds alone isn't a lot, you have to account for snuffing the boon and the survivors replacing it, the total amount of time constantly healing, and the time wasted of a survivor choosing to find totems and boon instead of gens while the killer should obviously be pressuring.
If the healing wasn't stacked so hard, CoH wouldn't be busted. If it took 14 seconds to place and then was always a 16 second heal, I think loads of people would be fine with it, and if you aren't then it honestly is a skill issue that you aren't taking advantage of a 30 second time waste.
Honestly, I wouldn't even mind if it kept the 100% healing boost, just don't make it stack with medkits. Solo healer is always 16 seconds, duo is 8. Nothing should be faster than an 8 second heal, that is what is busted.
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"Everyone on the team gets self care as fast as normal healing" would appear to be the busted part to me. One perk needed on one survivor and now hit-and-run tactics basically get shut down, unless it's put somewhere easy to constantly snuff. No needing two Survivors to heal, no having to stay injured if you just want to do gens.
The one person can heal and the rest of the team is fine.
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Hit and run tactics are hit hard because of how fast the healing can occur. If it still took 16 seconds plus time to set up, it would be strong but it would not be nearly as busted as it is now.
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It'd still be busted in the sense that one perk is entirely removing one of the things that would pressure Survivors to clump up and force them to not be on gens (or risk running around injured).
It's hard, because both of the things it does (super fast medkit healing, negating healing downsides in general) are busted for the investment.
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I don't think if it was 16 second healing it would be as bad honestly. It would be infinitely better than people almost healing faster than 6 seconds.
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Depends what the problem you're focusing on is. Too-fast healing when everyone can bring medkits shuts down hit-and-run from one direction. Everyone having self-care at normal heal speeds but only one person paying a perk cost (or two for security) shuts down people needing to have those medkits or their own perk investment, and nobody needs to get off gens or expose themselves to risk for the injured person to heal.
Both are bad, and having both at once is really bad.
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No matter what narrative you try to take, Circle of Healing is busted and is a win for the survivors.
16 seconds to place, 16 seconds to heal, and let's say another 10 seconds to find a totem to bless. 42 seconds to get a single heal from COH.
42 seconds divided by 4 (as there are four survivors, and your time as an individual survivor is only 1/4 important as the killers) is 10.5 seconds.
You spent 10.5 seconds to give yourself, and your entire team infinite med-kits and the ability to destroy any ability for the killer to snowball. How is that fair? Unless a survivor is dumb and goes down next to the boon, it will always take the killer more time to destroy the boon, than it is for the survivors to place it and even use it.
This perk destroys any semblance of killer pressure. Leave it up? Everyone's fully healthy and you're forced to tunnel people as hit and run tactics do not work. Snuff it out? Enjoy giving the survivors an easy victory as even 10-20 seconds of no generator pressure is enough to spiral a game out of control (because once again, 20 seconds x 4 survivors = 80 seconds).
There is no defending this perk.
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heres the thing, sure you have to set up a boon which takes a little time. do you know how many times ive healed 4+ times by myself with just the boon. that means the next time the killer finds me he has to hit me an extra time wtihout needing another survivor or medkit to heal me. so say you bring in a good med kit thats what 3 heals? ok so 3 heals with the medkit vs unlimited heals with the boon and the availability to bring a flashlight or toolbox to have extra utility. also not taking another survivor out of play for the time it takes to heal. so yes you talk about a boon taking time to set up but you forget to mention it takes away the need for another survivor so your 14 second heal or whatever it is is actually 28 seconds normally of combined survivor time. so in essence the single setup comes out even and every use of it after is gravy.
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The issue isn't the concept of a boon totem. The problem is that infinite medkits is every bit as powerful as a hex perk, but boons lack the downsides of a hex perk. Basically COH is just blatantly overpowered. You really could consider it similar to a ruin that can't be cleansed, as both perks are designed to undo the damage one side can do to the other.
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I completely wholeheartedly agree with everything you have just said. Words of Wisdom
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Yes because instead of actually addressing the problem directly they just added more ######### to deal with boons as a concept is fine but in execution showed it wasn't ready yet.
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While you are correct in that COH is the main culprit of the mechanic being broken the mechanic as a whole needs to be reworked cause as it is now there is little to no justifiable countermeasures and if you boil it down boons now can no joke be considered a legit reason to tunnel and camp someone cause at the moment there's only two scenarios that can be done with boon totems waste time in snuffing them out (Which yes can be longer but it doesn't get rid of them) or ignore it and go after the one spawning it (which again some people can see as a reason to tunnel and camp).
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The killers time is worth the number of survivors on gens. Not a constant 4.
You can't say that a killer who goes around breaking walls while all survivors are on gens and a killer who has 2 people hooked and in chase with another one both's time is 1/4 of the survivors.
Agree the perk is overtuned and warrents a nerf but i've seen that reasoning of killer's time=1/4 of survivors time quite a lot recently and it's so very flawed
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Honestly, Thrill is a useless perk because it no longer tells you when someone is working on a totem. Undying is only used when you have other hexes and one use, meaning once it's gone it's gone. But survivors, have boons, small game, maps, etc. that help deal with hexes and totems in general. Killers literally need to listen or tunnel the boon user out so there would be no more boons on the map.
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I would not be fine with it if it took only 16 seconds to heal. They need to remove that 100%. That boon is busted. Shadowstep is busted on maps with 2 or more layers. Survivors know this since ive gotten multiple SWFs sending me to gideon or RPD just to abuse those 2 boons.
Nothing is ok about them. Fact that multiple killers have stopped playing and you barely see some killers should already get your alarm bells ringing.
When i play survivor i dont even have fun because its so damn easy to win. Theres no challenge unless the killer is someone with 5000+ hours in the game. Only killers that give me little challenge are blight and nurse. This to me isnt enjoyable gameplay. As a survivor i should be afraid of the killer and be careful. How many of us can say we are actually afraid of the killer nowdays? Hell im more afraid of the toxic SWFs nowdays with boons and flashlights.
Also boons have increased the tunneling and proxycamping/camping in the game. I think many of us can say its not fun gameplay for survivors or the killers, but when you see you are against a booner team its just easier to tunnel people down. I hate tunneling people but ive had matches where i've had to tunnel the people down just because of boons.
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The fact a lot of killers have stopped playing proves people dont want a balanced game, they want easier games. It is that simple lol same thing happened with spirit nerfs. Loads of spirit players left because she takes a slight amount of skill now, but that means she is useless because they couldn't stand still anymore and win.
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I think, my problem with Boons, is that Survivors set the speed of the match, not Killers. So now Killers need:
Anti-Genrush builds AND Anti-Boon builds AND Anti-Loop Builds AND Anti-Altruism builds.
All at the same time, in order to combat Survivors.
And Survivors, being 4 people & 16 perks in the same match, can literally bring all 3 threats. Survivor 1 can have Boons. #2 can be for genrushing. #3 can be a looper. And #4 can be the unhooker.
And a Killer has to counter those 16 perks with...4 perks, plus a Killer power that has built-in perk-free counter-play.
I swear; Survivors have so much control over how a match flows, that you could reskin DBD as 'Tucker & Dale Vs Evil', and It'd almost no changes:
The Killer are now just normal rednecks trying to enjoy their cabin in the woods, and Survivors are psycho college students who THINK they (the rednecks) are killers, and keep killing themselves trying to kill the 'Killers'.
(BTW: If you have not seen Tucker & Dale Vs Evil; go watch it. It's gory, but it's a dark comedy. It's great!)
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Thrill is amazing, it completly stops people from booning your hexes unless they want to throw the game by afking for close to a minute.
The only times i have lost so far with a all hex totem+thill build is when survivors weren't running boons
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CoH is very strong. Which is why i use antihealing builds and a very aggressive playstyle.
Now before you spout "what a killer main" i play both sides. Lil more survivor side due to friends but both sides non the less.
CoH when i play survivor is a godsend. I am a sabo MoM gamer. If a random brings CoH, it changes the whole game. Cause less time healing. More time saboing and taking hits and using break out. Which means killers cant do their job all that well, which buys my team so much time.
As a killer. Sometimes you really just cant break chase to go cleanse a totem. Not to mention its a bit wonky as well. You have to like keep moving forward on it just so you can cleanse it? Idk. Which is why i love antihealing builds.
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With thrill, people will sit on a totem, must likely dull and cleanse thrill. It's a no brainer play. But that doesn't take away that all the perks you can use as a killer can be destroyed in the first minute of the match, leaving you with nothing to defend. On top of that, you lose perk slots to use meta perks(different topic). It's a waste of space with perks and it isn't buyable in the game anymore
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Yeah, pretty much this.
The major issue isn't even that I have to snuff the bloody things.
It's that:
- They can be relit.
- They can be set up in certain positions where you lose more time snuffing it than they do (proportionally) relighting it, even if you know where the thing is.
- COH is bonkers overtuned.
This.
I know that CoH has artificially restricted my build choices as killer, simply because it exists - and that's not good.
No.
Think about it this way.
What you are describing (TOTT+Undying) means that killers need to dedicate half their perk slots just in case someone brings COH.
Beyond this, TOTT is, itself, a hex. This means that it's fragile at best and at worst vanishes 10 seconds into a match because the survivors spawned on top of it. If TOTT was just a passive (as several hexes should honestly be), that would be one thing.
But it isn't.
There is no realistic way to counter a COH in the RPD library, as just checking it is such a time commitment that you're falling behind even if it's there, and it covers half the map. Pantry, Haddonfield, Badham and other maps have similar positions.
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Hex totems will always be inconcistant that's true, the possivility of them all being gone very fast is there.
But in my experience that worst case scenario rarely happens. More often then not it will take them so long to get rid of the hexes that i don't need any other perks to close out the game anymore.
Especially on killers with information abilities like doctor Legion and to an extend demmo you can make it pretty difficult for people to get rid of the totems with thrill.
Thrill is a very underrated perk now. Sure the loss of the notification sucks but the buff to the speed penalty is no joke
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However, you have perks that counters Thrills speed penalty and makes it useless. Killers and do nothing to counter boons because they can get then back up in no time. And yes, you have doctor and legion to try to stop but the low chance that it will is not worth it
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What perk are you talking about?
The only perk i know that buffs totem cleansing speed by any significant amount is leader and counterforce.
Both aren't run very often and counterforce only starts going after you started cleansing totems and leader requires 2 survivors to be around the totem
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You also have spine chill, resilience and the two you listed
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Spine chill is a measly 6% when the killer is looking at you from 36m. It will barelly save you half a second if the killer is walking towards you
Resilience is only 9%, it changes a thrill cleanse from 28 seconds to 25.7 seconds. Like 2.3 second difference
If that's your idea of countering the speed debuff and making it useless then i don't know what to say. You just want to believe it's bad
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Except you are negating to mention the fact that setting up boon totems across the entire map usually results in a net gain in time efficiency for survivors. The good bit of time you spend setting boons up, it usually pays off massively.
It is a problem when the survivor boon perks are literally better than the killers hex perks.
Also nobody asked for boon totems, what killers asked for was early game collapse.
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Again i was never defending CoH, i still think healing has been busted for a long time and needs touched, doesn't mean that all boons are broken though.
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