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New Dead Man's Switch + Artist is an unbeatable combo
So the new Dead Man's Switch perk now activates on any hook, not just the obsession. This will be a healthy buff for some of the weaker killers where it takes a significant time investment to force survivors off a generator, such as lower mobility killers who have to actually walk there to force them off it. What the devs seemingly forgot to remember was that there are killers who can force survivors off generators so easily that they can effectively lock the survivors out of ever getting the generators done fast enough to win.
(Literally) unbeatable artist strategy with new DMS:
- Get hook.
- Fire off 3 crows to gens.
- All active generators are blocked for nearly 45 seconds. If they don't let go to clear the birds just fire another one and they're injured as well as forced to let go.
- Use this time and the artist's strong anti-loop to get another down.
Then just repeat:
Hook just after DMS expires, then fire off 3 crows to gens again. All active generators are blocked again.
Some people below have been mentioning that you can just tank the first swarm. The artist can just stagger her birds and double bird, though, which means if you don't get off, you get injured and are forced off anyway.
This is literally unbeatable. Artist's 1v1 is so strong she can get hooks almost as fast as DMS's timer, sometimes faster, at any loop in the game. She can also force you to stop repairing generators from anywhere on the map, making that generator get blocked for 45s and making completing 5 gens literally impossible.
Devs, please address this on PTB or before live.
Comments
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Getting hit with a swarm does not force you off a gen. If the Artist is firing 3 crows (which survivors can see) then her CD is long meaning there's no rush to hop off the gen after being hit.
Artist also can't fire crows immediately off hook, because she has to first move away from the hook before she can even place down crows.
Not to mention, survivors can let go off gens before the hook, wait for the artist to fire her crows and then hop back on.
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What if:
You see you are against the artist at the beginning of the game.
You see another surv is downed and you see she is about to hook.
You leave the generator before for 5 seconds, going in a locker avoiding avoid both BBQ and DMS.
You go back to the generator.
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@Crowman If you read the post properly, you'd notice that if you stay on the gen and don't clear the swarm, she can just recharge her crows, which takes 12 seconds (not a long time), and get an injure, which is still about 30 seconds of slowdown on all active generators every single hook, which is still ridiculous, and she's also getting injures for it.
You could also dodge the 2nd crow, avoiding the injure, but the point still stands that you're forced off the gen.
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@Zolfo16 Doesn't work I'm afraid.
DMS isn't a single-use thing
It activates if you let go of the gen regardless of whether you were on it when DMS was triggered. Even if you weren't on the gen when the hook went through, if you tap it then she birds, you're still forced to let go of it.
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30 seconds of blocked gens isn't a big deal.
Blocked gens are immune to damage and can't regress.
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Also fun fact about DMS. If you hook survivors too quickly, it does not refresh the duration.
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@Crowman 30 seconds of no generator progress every single hook isn't a big deal?
I mean, I don't mean to be rude, but that's just straight wrong. That's 30 seconds the killer can spend doing whatever they want while the survivors can't progress the generators. For a killer like the artist, who has a 1v1 good enough to get downs in under a minute at worst consistently on pretty much any map, this is insane. Even if you tank the first crow, you're losing up to 90 seconds of collective gen time every hook. Compare that to pop, which saves you 20 seconds per hook, is harder to activate than DMS artist, and is still a strong perk. See the problem?
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Keep in mind that this is the same time as Deadlock at Tier 3, and Deadlock is like... arguably one of the best Killer Perks on some Killers... and it only activates 4 times. This can activate over twice as many times and is in the Killer's control rather than the Survivors' control like with Deadlock.
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Survivors are still in control of DMS activations. Since they have to let go of gens in order to trigger it the effect and if they know a killer is running it they can play around it.
People are just overreacting to the perk, but it won't be nearly as good as people think it is. I've run the perk in meme obsession builds and as nice as blocking gens, that's all you are doing. The 99% gen is still 99% done.
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If you are about to complete the gen you endure it. Dodging the fisrt murder of crows should give you enought time before the second will arrive, if the second hit you, you still have some time to finish before the third. If the gen is just started you hide or search for a different one.
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@Zolfo16 You can't dodge the first murder, or the gen gets blocked. You have to tank the first one, and then finish the gen in the short window that you have before her power recharges and she flings them at you again. Even if the math lines up for you, which relies on your generator being at about 85% completion, or about 75% if you're doubled, you've still neglected to clear the swarm, and she could just launch 3 crows in your direction for the injure. She could also single crow, which gives her only a 5-second cooldown if she knows time is tight.
If this relies on your gen being nearly done, that still doesn't change the fact that in most situations it's not going to apply.
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You can if you move from the gen BEFORE the guy is hooked. Like you already do with BBQ. You can't dodge the second.
And you have to finish the gen between the first and the third.
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My god, why don't we wait to TRY something before calling it 'Op' or 'Broken'?
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@Zolfo16 Not gonna happen though. She can delay her bird until she knows you're on the gen, which she can find out by using info perks or just looking at you. She can also just single crow each gen so her cooldown's less, then blast you only 5 seconds later or so. There's still way too much an artist can do against this sort of thing, and you can't exactly just sit there forever dodging multiple singles.
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@AngyKiller Because this really doesn't need a field test. With what the new buff is going to do, and with how the artist's power currently works, this is unequivocally broken.
This is my first ever forum post, and I'm only making it because if I do nothing and this ends up going to live I'll regret it.
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How does she know you are on the gen? BBQ? As i said before, if you hide in a locker you are going to avoid it. Maybe there is noone on the gen. If she KNOWS there is someone on the gen (Maybe with Tinkerer?) you have to move out because she is 100% coming and she will not send the crows to you in order make you prepared.
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Except it's not 'unequivocally' anything. Your theory does not take literally anything into account but how the two powers interact; not map layout, Killer skill, Survivor skill, any other perks, etc.
This what people DO around here; assume anything is broken before it even lands on the PTB because of how it sounds 'on paper', so to speak.
Wait and try it before you call it OP. Your theory exists in a vacuum.
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Not sure if I'm missing something here but if Artist hooks someone and then fires a crow there is no opportunity to avoid a hit before the hook. I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea to actually fire a crow to get someone off a gen and then hook, though that's an interesting strategy I think it's more reliable to hook first then fire your crows. They then either have to let go or suffer the effect which further leads to a damaging hit. If a gen is close to being finished you can just do it through the damage sure but that's kinda conditional on a lot of factors. If Artist runs say Tinkerer or something they would know when a gen is close enough to power through the Crows and fire single Crows at that gen in particular. That leads to a very short cooldown and makes it extremely hard to finish the gen through the crows.
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@AngyKiller And what you're doing is disregarding this on the basis that it's "on paper".
On paper, if I throw a ball up in the air, I would expect it to come down. I don't need to actually go and do it to know what's going to happen, because I know the rules and conditions that determine what it's going to do. I know that gravity will cause the ball to decelerate and fall to the ground.
The exact same thing is true here. I know that artist's power can quickly and easily force people to let go of generators from anywhere on the map. I also know that artist can get fast downs. Ergo, I know for a fact that in its current state, Dead Man's Switch on this killer will be broken, unless the perk is tweaked. The whole point of this post is to get that to happen.
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I already explained how you should behave:
You know you are against an artist and you see the artist downing a surv and picking him up.
You go and hide in a locker BEFORE the surv is hooked.
You stay in the locker counting till 5 after the surv is hooked, you will avoid BBQ and probably the crows. She must have other perks in order to know you are there for sure!
You go back to the gen, if the artist still not sent the first murder of crows wait some more seconds, then start working the gen again.
The second murder of crows may arrive, you have to endure it. But only if the artist is sure or seriously worried someone is working there.
You should finish the gen before the third murder of crows.
If the gen cannot be finished in the time between the first and the third murder, well maybe you should go elsewhere if you see is target of crows. Even thou i dunno why, we have a gen where noone is working and not so close to be finished.
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You're right, I am disregarding it because, on paper, you're ignoring literally every outside factor to cry chicken little.
There are too many factors in-game to see how two powers will interact. Your theory:
- Ignores the skills of the Killer, which includes aiming through walls across the map
- The size of the maps. Which means the birds may have to fly farther and thus, aim being off by 1 inch can mean a miss over 500 meters whereas it would be a hit at 5 meters. Also; the Killer's ability to GET to the Survivors if they are across a large map.
- What other perks the Killer is using. IE: BBQ could give them great situational awareness, but only if they're using it.
- What perks the Survivors are using.
- The skill of the Survivors. If they know the Killer has Dead Man's, they then know to release gens BEFORE the hooking. Hell, some Survivors can keep a running count in their heads nad know if it's safe to let go for the final few seconds, or when it's safe to go back if they previously let go.
To use your ball analogy; You know the ball will fall straight down...While ignoring that there's someone nearby who might hit it, so it falls to your left. Or that you're doing it on a very windy day, with sporadic wind gusts of 35 MPH that may push the ball around.
Instead, you're ignoring every single other factor in the scenario to say 'This ball will fall straight down, and you can't tell me otherwise'.
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Nothing really stops her from periodically sending crows to gens she's already sent them to before. It doesn't cost anything and as the gens that are being worked on get blocked she will have fewer to send crows to.
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@AngyKiller Sure, I'll address your points
"Aiming through walls across the map" - yeah no this requires extremely limited skill, you just line it up with the generator and click launch. This is irrelevant
Size of the maps? Again, see above. Have you ever played artist before? It's incredibly easy to hit a generator regardless of the distance. If you think this is actually difficult then I'm convinced you haven't actually played the killer, or you have very minimal experience with her. This might not be true, but the point still stands that this is stupidly easy to do. Also, the whole reason why this combo is strong is because artist doesn't actually have to go there to get them off the gen anyway.
As for other perks, even with no perks this combo is good because good killers have the game sense to know what generators are likely being worked on. Plus, as you're playing artist, you'll be able to get on-demand accurate generator information by launching birds at generators when you have the time. Any info perk will just boost its effectiveness.
What perks the survivors are using? Well, which perks would make an impact here? I can't think of any that would change the fact that artist can still get fast downs on them and get them off generators easily from anywhere on the map.
For releasing before hooking, that's not how DMS works lol. DMS blocks the gen if you let go at any point, not just if you were holding on at the time the hook went through. Survivors can do some stuff, like tank the first bird or try to dodge the first bird, but if the artist just staggers her birds to force the injure, or plays safe and goes for singles they have to let go very early.
There are no variables you or anyone else here has mentioned that could mean the artist's synergy with dead man's switch wouldn't be problematically strong that I have not refuted.
Believe me, I haven't "ignored" every single other factor. I've actually accounted for them. Reading this reply will show you that. If you still think I'm wrong, I'm open to any argument you can actually present that challenges what I'm saying, but if you're going to continue dismissing what I'm saying because it's untested, or because I've "ignored every single other factor" when I clearly haven't, then we're getting nowhere with this.
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Bro you don't even need bbq
There are 7 generators on the map, you can fire 3 crows and there are 3 survivors working those 7 generators, even by completly guessing there's a good chance you'll block a gen
Fact is with some game sense you're likely to block more gens than that. There's usually 1 or 2 gens nearby the hook you won't even need birds to pressure even if they are being worked
On top of that you may know from your patroling across the map 1 or 2 gens that you know for sure aren't being worked.
That leaves only 3-5 gens you even need to bother firing crows at, and there are 3 survivors who are usually all working on different gens so chances are most of the time you're forcing at least 2 survivors off of their gens and wasting their time.
Virgin deadlock, block 1 gen for 30 seconds 4 times in a match
Chad deadman's switch, blocks 2+ gens for 45 seconds 6+ times a match
Getting off the gen early to hide only gives the killer EXACTLY what they want, for you to waste time not doing generators.
Honestly it will probably be a pretty strong strategy to throw 1 survivor on the hook, sit there and camp them for 45 seconds and just spam crows at gens to basically completly stop gen progress for 45 seconds while you camp someone to stage 2 then leave them to chase someone else.
Edit: Oh and also she has an addon that lets her fire 4 crows at once, throw that on and now you can stop repairs on 4 gens at a time instead of 3
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You know that using DMS means that you don't have to deal with pop, right? Ruin also doesn't work while DMS is active.
It's just a good alternative slow-down now. What's your problem with that?
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I'm wondering if it'll work with Pain Resonance, because in theory it should. You hook someone on a scourge hook, a survivor working on the gen that gets popped screams causing them to stop working on the gen, and then the gen immediately gets blocked.
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Yeah it will be fun.
Thing is that when you use DMS, you are not going to use pop or ruin. So we are going to see more diversity in killer's perks, isn't that good thing?
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Well, killers could still use ruin as a pressure perk for when they haven't gotten a hook yet. So there's still the potential that some players might still run ruin with it, But yeah, Pop will be useless.
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The problem with the way DMS will function is basically it's just way over-tuned here. The impact of 45 seconds where no gens can realistically be worked on cannot be overstated and it's repeatable for every hook you get. You can imagine a good Artist player that gets a down every minute or so is going to be using this effect very often leading to a very significant percentage of the match where survivors just can't do gens at all.
Beyond that there are still other issues. Like how this promotes camping and throwing out crows to simultaneously deny the unhook/force a trade and still block gens. Or that unlike other regression perks like Pop and Ruin the killer doesn't actually have to go to the gen and pressure it, they get to just fire crows and it gets passively pressured for them. This of course feels pretty unfair since the killer isn't actively doing anything but still being rewarded.
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Hmm, ultimate camping build?
Corrupt, Deadlock, DMS and Pain Resonance
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You can already do this with artist using nemesis. They will let go of gens before you hook which counters pain resonance from triggering DMS. They can wait for the artist to fire crows then depending on how many she fires it's a longer cool down. Or just work on a gen that has different elevation compared to the artist like a hill or a lower floor. Maps like the game will counter this strategy.
I've been running corrupt, nemesis, DMS, and pain resonance. So the only thing that will change in my build is nemesis
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I am not saying there is nothing you can do about it, but it will be hard for soloQ. Decent SWF can probably deal with it after you use it once...
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It's only "overtuned" because they added a long range damaging killer that ignores walls, but surely they expected artist would be good with it. If they lower the time to even 30 seconds most killers won't get any insane value out of it besides the initial pain resonance knock off
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Let it be broken, just like what they did to boons.
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Couple issues with your math here.
First, she fires 3 crows, 4 with the right add-on, and there are 7 gens, so there's no way she's blocking all of them. Even in a 3 gen, she's going to have to pick the side of it a survivor is on, through a wall, without being able to see them. (Seriously one of the best counters to artist so far is just working the front or back of a gen instead of the sides, makes so many of these shots miss)
If she shoots 2 crows at the same gen (as you described) that only leaves her with 1 other gen she can try to hit. Then she has a cool down (and slow speed) to try and pick 1 survivor to capitalize on (while the others keep working)
So yeah, if you are 3 genned, and she hits every crow, and nobody is smart enough to let off the gen when they see their teammate picked up, she'll get to block all 3 for 30 seconds, while preserving their progress.
That's not really the same thing as being able to block all gens easily.
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She can easily block all gens the survivors are working. If she blocks all 3 gens the survivors are working, that's 90 seconds of time lost. That's massive.
I'm not too worried about it, because it's got hotfix written all over it.
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She can
if she picks the right 3 gens
if nobody let's go before the hook
if she gets the right side of each gen.
That's 3 ifs without even bringing up the map differences.
It also doesn't account for just going to the next gen that wasn't blocked because nobody was working it when the survivor was hooked.
I'm not worried because it's a very clearly niche situation where the stars will align well enough for DMS to do more than be a minor annoyance, and definitely doesn't do enough to change the killer meta.
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It's hard not to pick the right 3 gens since BBQ exists. (Which, btw, is part of the DMS combo)
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Bbq, the perk than can be beaten by a locker, or just being on the opposite side of the gen from the killer? That bbq? Still not worried. I mean, don't get me wrong. Bbq is a good perk, but it has insanely easy counterplay that doesn't even require a perk or item
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DMS requires to you get off a generator for it to activate, so going into a locker just plays into the Artists/DMS/BBQ combo.
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DMS requires you to let go of the gen AFTER the hook in order to take effect.
The counter to bbq is going into the locker BEFORE the hook.
So no, no it really doesn't.
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I didn' t see this reply. So I'm going to reply back to you. Why this is abusable is because survivors lose 45 seconds of time if they play everything perfectly and lose 2 minutes and 15 seconds if it goes wrong. A 45 second penalty for doing everything right is massive. (A survivor would need to find a locker after the killer picks up the survivor which is ~5 seconds at the least, ~5 to hide in the locker for BBQ and another ~5 to get back to the gen and start doing it again).
This is an amazing amount of coordination for 3 survivors to do while all the Artist has to do is stand in front of a survivor and shoot off crows. And even with this amazing amount of coordination, the team is losing 45 seconds of gen time.
And you have to also realize, the first time the Killer does this, no one is going to know to do this to begin with, so they're going to lose 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
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1. What you are describing isn't coordination, it would be if one survivor had to open the door for another to hide. Each survivor doesn't have to coordinate, just act as they already do for bbq. As long as just 1 of the team hides, the survivors don't all fall victim to the tactic. They don't have to coordinate anything, just hop in a locker, something literally every survivor learns how to do during the tutorial
2. Absolute time invested would be misleading even if you had a source for your numbers, as the matches aren't timed, the calculation should be time spent vs advantage gained or lost. In this case it takes less than a minute for a survivor to completely negate 2 different killer perks at the same time without having to bring or equip anything different. That's a major advantage for the time taken. As a matter of fact I can't think of any other simple environmental interaction that can negate half of another player's perk loadout on either side.
3. Of course they'll know how to do it as A. They'll learn in the ptb and B. It's literally the same tactics already used for bbq.
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- When I say coordinated, I mean all 3 survivors have to be doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. That's extremely coordinated for a group of players. Almost all survivor I play with don't do that for BBQ, but instead elect to work on the gen, then after ~5 seconds, they walk away from the gen, this is a different tactic.
- The survivors aren't completely negating 2 different perks. In fact, if all 3 survivors are being perfectly coordinated, they are still losing 45 seconds every hook, so those perks are hard at work.
- Survivors won't know what perks the killer has. Do you expect survivors to just randomly start using a tactic to counter a specific perk setup without knowing the killer has that perk setup.
Finally, I'm not calling for a nerf of the new DMS. I'm predicting that DMS will be nerfed because of this tactic, before it is released from PTB. If it isn't, I'll be playing DMS all day on Freddy and even though Artist isn't one of my mains, I'm planning on playing DMS on her too. I have nothing invested in DMS being nerfed or not being nerfed. I kind of hope DMS gets out of PTB like it is so I can use it, just because I feel it's pretty broken on certain killers. However, I just couldn't imagine DMS getting out of PTB in it's current state or heck, maybe the Artist will be nerfed instead.
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Dms OP #8
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I expect a smart survivor to figure it out, just as they do with bbq now. If I'm working a gen, see someone get hooked and pop off only for the gen to be blocked, I know what's up. Luckily each survivor has to be hooked multiple times, so I can learn and do better at the next down. Same way I try and figure out if a killer has bbq now. (Didn't feel like I needed to explain that before as I know you are a versed player who's been playing long enough to know how to play the "what loadout does the killer have" game.
I'm sure it will be strong, but people are acting like it's going to single handedly win games, (see: thread title claiming somehow it's "unbeatable") and that's just not the case. At best it will change up the meta a bit, while barely denting the kill rates. (And I think we can all agree, the meta needs to be changed up, on both sides, just to keep the game from getting stale)
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I think it's exploitable by the Artist in particular, other killers it will work like the developers intended.
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