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How to make Legion balanced and more fun for both sides
Currently, Legion is a mending simulator with no real means of downing someone, and an ungodly Frenzy Fatigue. The fact that he is so boring to go against yet still a very weak killer needs to be fixed.
To start, let's incentivize them to Slash only 1 or 2 survivors instead of constantly chasing all 4 to make them Mend all over again:
- Reduce Frenzy Fatigue to 2s, but increase it by 0.25s for every survivor Slashed, up to 3s.
- Increase Frenzy movement speed to 5.6m/s and Frenzy Fatigue movement speed to 2.6m/s, but reduce both by 0.15m/s for every Slash, up to a maximum reduction of 0.6m/s.
These changes will make them stronger in the 1v1 chase should they choose to focus on 1 or 2 survivors in a Frenzy, as the reduced cooldown and increased movement will help with catch-up and bodyblocking. The movement speed also helps with larger maps and spread out survivors, which Legion struggles immensely with. While it is still possible for them to spread pressure out amongst all 4 survivors, it comes with drawbacks now.
Now, let's give them a couple of straight-up buffs that they need:
- Do not reduce Frenzy charges when hitting a survivor with a Basic Attack.
- Reveal survivors even if they are Oblivious.
These changes will solidify their basekit, so now for their add-ons:
- Change Frenzy fatigue add-ons to reduce Frenzy fatigue by 10, 15, and 20%.
- Change the Frenzy duration add-ons to 10, 20 and 30%.
- Buff the Ruler add-ons to 10 and 20%.
- Buff the Blade add-ons to 20 and 40%.
- Change Susie's Mix Tape to increase movement speed by 0.3m/s during Frenzy.
- Change Frank’s Mix Tape to increase movement speed by 0.6m/s during Frenzy.
- Change Never-Sleep Pills to show Pools of Blood and Scratch Marks during a Frenzy.
- Change Stab Wounds Study to inflict Exhaustion on survivors for 10s when Slashed.
- Buff Iridescent Button to also increase Vaulting speed (Pallets and Windows) by 15%, even when not in Frenzy.
- Change Fuming Mixtape to reveal the Auras of survivors within the Terror Radius during Feral Frenzy. Increase the Terror Radius during a Frenzy by 8m.
Now Legion is looking pretty solid, so let's finish up by tweaking 2 of their Teachable Perks:
- Buff Mad Grit to also reduce Basic Attack cooldown duration by 15%, and increase movement speed by 3%.
- Buff Iron Maiden to expose survivors for 60s and reveal their Auras for 4s when exiting a Locker.
Tada, Legion is viable, and hopefully a little more fun!
Comments
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I wouldn't mind most of those changes. Can't be bothered to look up the details on all those add-ons since I never really use them when playing Legion, but here's what I have to say on the other stuff.
Reducing the Frenzy meter when you m1 someone never made any sense to me, I agree that has to go. Especially considering how if you m1 someone, you need to m1 them again, if you frenzy hit them afterwards, it'll only put them into deep wound, not down them.
No to your Mad Grit suggested changes. Unrelenting already gives basic attack cooldown duration, and I see no reason for an increased movement speed on top of its current effect. (would that be regular movement speed, or carrying speed, or both? because there's already Agitation for extra carry speed, no need for a perk that does what every other carry perk does all in one to free up perk slots.. yes i know agitation's speed boost is much bigger than just 3% but I feel like it's not required considering what the perk was for in the first place)
I agree with the proposed Iron Maiden changes though, 30 seconds of exposed is worthless. Better than nothing, but a bit pointless when most of the time you're halfway across the map and even if you make a beeline, won't get there in time for the insta-down. Not sure about the aura reading part, it already gives killer instinct for 4 seconds.
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Reduce Frenzy Fatigue to 2s, but increase it by 0.25s for every survivor Slashed, up to 3s.
Increase Frenzy movement speed to 5.6m/s and Frenzy Fatigue movement speed to 2.6m/s, but reduce both by 0.15m/s for every Slash, up to a maximum reduction of 0.6m/s.?
So you're punished for survivors making mistakes and grouping up against you? That's how you'll usually get 4 frenzy hits. If the survivors aren't making mistakes, then you're just getting punished for playing well.
The other changes are pretty solid though.
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Buff Iridescent Button to also increase Vaulting speed (Pallets and Windows) by 15%, even when not in Frenzy.
Iri button is Legion's strongest addon in my opinion, I don't think it needs this change. Instead, just run Bamboozle.
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Feels like a bunch of his suggested changes is just tossing in different other perks' effects into Legion's add-ons/perks to give them more perk effects without requiring more perk slots.
I don't mind the way they've been doing add-ons for newer (or reworked) killers though, have some add-ons mimic the killer's perks in some way, like how Bubba now has a chainsaw that procs Franklin's, Nurse has some that proc nurse's calling and stridor, among others.
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"Reduce Frenzy Fatigue to 2s, but increase it by 0.25s for every survivor Slashed, up to 3s."
This is ridiculous. Legion is in concept, according to the devs is "a high-speed killer capable of inflicting partial damage to multiple survivors." So WHY is his fatigue increasing for chaining hits? Ignoring that this goes against the concept, why is the killer being punished for playing well? If you got a 4-man chain, you DESERVE to be rewarded, not punished.
"Increase Frenzy movement speed to 5.6m/s and Frenzy Fatigue movement speed to 2.6m/s, but reduce both by 0.15m/s for every Slash, up to a maximum reduction of 0.6m/s."
Two things. One) Again, punished for playing well which is asinine. Two) It's a non-lethal power, he can move at 6m/s
"Change Never-Sleep Pills to show Pools of Blood and Scratch Marks during a Frenzy."
Just make it base. Removing the ability to see blood was asinine and a relic of when they were (rightfully) panic nerfing Legion.
"Buff the Blade add-ons to 20 and 40%."
Okay, this would be.... ugh. 40% means around 5-second and 20% is 2.5-seconds (unlike most add-ons, the blades give flat numbers so it's easy to do the math on). That's 19.5 seconds of mending. I would despise you on a personal level for using that, holy hell...
"Buff the Ruler add-ons to 10 and 20%."
Oooor just revert the nerfed recharge from 20 seconds back to 15 seconds. It made no sense to nerf it then, especially when the ability to Frenzy with a partial gauge was removed.
The problem
None of these addresses Legion's core issue. The problem with Legion is that while he is the best killer in the game in terms of injuring survivors, he has nothing afterward. He is an M1 killer with no power. It's not like he gets bonuses for injuring survivors like an extended lunge or increased action speed like Myers, nor does he build up tokens for some super Mayhem mode or something. He's just an M1 killer whose most redeeming factor is that he's short, (ideally) always chases injured survivors), and can have good map awareness with Killer Instinct.
So while I appreciate the clear effort you put into this post, I vehemently disagree with the direction you went with in regards to Legion.
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ooh, an extended lunge or other reward like that for having survivors injured is an original idea, and not one I disagree with.
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Faster recovery from coming out of Frenzy the more people are in deep wound at any given time would be a good reward. If you go for 4 hits, and pull it off, you deserve a near instant recovery, vs only stabbing one person and getting out of frenzy right away, then you'll get full recovery.
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I think Instant recovery would be abusable, however I completely agree that the fatigue should be reduced for doing well in frenzy.
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Well I used the wrong word.. faster recovery, not instant.. yeah instant would be overpowered, but a slightly faster recovery would be good.
Base recovery is like 3 or 4 seconds? half a second faster recovery for each person in deep wound would be somewhat good. 4 seconds if you manage to hit no one, and shave 2 seconds off of that if you manage to hit all 4. (I'm saying half a second because it's easy to calculate, but you get the idea)
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yes, base is 4 seconds.
I think it should be changed to 3, and then to 2.5 if you hit all 4 survivors.
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Hitting all 4 in a single frenzy is a rare thing though, so that would be as useless as Trickster's Main Event.
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Note that the Mad Grit cooldown is for hits and misses, and that along with the speed bonus is even when not carrying.
Also for Iron Maiden, the Killer Instinct would be removed, the surv would juts scream and be seen for 4s
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Agreed. This is both fairly useless and only encourages mending simulator
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I think a lower recovery for less Slashes gives players a choice between better 1v1 or better 1v4. Slashing many survs isn't very common, and it takes too much time to constantly spread out that pressure if you're forced to do it for a shorter recovery.
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I'm particularly amused with how you started out this post complaining that I've increased Fatigue even though I literally reduced it by up to 50%. Reducing for hitting more survs just encourages a 20-minute mending simulator. If you want to call it punishment for playing well, go for it, but it's entirely canon for someone to get more fatigued after sprinting across an entire farm and hitting several people or something lol.
And you could just remove the movement speed debuff, whatever. I've already buffed it by 0.4m/s though, that's plenty for a PTB. I do believe they should have a much lower base Fatigue though, and the devs will never go for a simple 2s flat, nor is it viable to only give it if you Frenzy a ton of survs.
Do what you want with Never Sleep Pills, idc. You're complaining about an awful lot though, make your own concept instead of shitting on the absolutely minute details of mine.
And for the Ruler add-ons complaint, you're once again ignoring the fact that Legion making survs mend even more is not fun for survs. My goal is to make them fun for both sides. A mending simulator is freaking boring.
And you're saying I've done nothing to help them down survs but I literally halved the Fatigue and increased Fatigue movement speed so survs get very little distance if you only Slash one. These changes also allow you to bodyblock, much like with Wraith, but even stronger. Legion is already incredibly powerful for getting injuries, they don't need an overly strong downing power too. Survs will go from gaining just under 8m during a Fatigue to only 2.8m if you use the Frenzy without Slashing, and bodyblocking is more effective with the increased movement, so I dare you to tell me that's not effective lol. For reference, that's over 50% less distance loss than Wraith gives when uncloaking, even accounting for his speed boost. You'd down them in less than 3s with a full Lunge, and that's without even considering bodyblock plays where the surv isn't just holding W away from you, AND Fatigue add-ons aren't even factored in. With double Fatigue add-ons, you barely give up 2m of distance even holding W in a straight line, meaning you'll down them in under 2s with a Lunge. Do the math and think about it before dumping all over my post.
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So... your starting position is fundamentally flawed.
I personally happen to very much enjoy the fact that Legion has a good 1v4 game but a not great 1v1 game. So... from my point of view, all of the changes you proposed to their base kit are beyond garbage and should never happen. If you want Killers with a good 1v1 and meh 1v4, there's literally plenty to choose from.
The only exceptions are these two changes. Do not reduce Frenzy charges when hitting a survivor with a Basic Attack. Reveal survivors even if they are Oblivious. Those changes are nice. I like those.
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You literally didn't even read the post. That's pathetic.
I didn't nerf their 1v4 at all. Everything is buffed considerably actually, even factoring in the debuffs you get after Slashing 4 times, with the exception of a negligible difference in movement speed (and I might just do away with that particular debuff anyway!). But the more you Slash, the longer your Fatigue, which hurts the 1v1 (also buffed, but still just M1), forcing players to choose strategically with each Frenzy, and thus hopefully reducing the constant "mending simulator" feel to their games. Try reading before you call my rework "fundamentally flawed" and "beyond garbage".
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I did read it. Doesn't mean the place you started from isn't fundamentally flawed.
You don't seem to realize why Legion is set up the way they are. Let's think about this for a second. Frenzy doubles the speed difference between them and Survivors, it allows them to vault windows the same as a Survivor medium vault, it allows them to vault pallets, and Legion maintains standard movement controls for the duration. Legion has no lethality because Survivors have no counter to getting injured by Frenzy. They just don't. That's why its non lethal and should remain non lethal.
For that reason, buffing their fatigue to only be 2 seconds or 1.3 seconds with add ons is a TERRIBLE idea. That would make them a lot more lethal overall, and their lack of lethality is the thing that is preventing them from being beyond broken and overpowered.
Does Legion need buffs? Yes absolutely. Should any of their buffs be to their lethality? NO! Never ever.
What they should get is stuff like this:
- No more losing the power bar after a successful M1 and when you pick someone up in Frenzy.
- Total Charge Time buffed from 20s to 10s and Franks Mix Tape nerfed to increase total charge time by 10s.
- If Legion ends Frenzy while not in chase and at least 8m from all Survivors, the Fatigue is only 1s. That would allow Frenzy to be used for mobility.
- Each successful stab in Feral Frenzy increases their speed by... 0.2? 0.3? m/s. This is primarily to make chaining hits with Frenzy a bit more reliable.
- Add on pass. Legion's add ons aren't bad, they're no Pyramid Head add ons. But most of them aren't very interesting or transformative. I'd like to see more interesting and useful add ons and a few less that are just flat number buffs or ones that inflict debilities.
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I offered my honest opinion, said I disagreed with the direction you took, yet still said I appreciated the clear effort you put into the post, despite my negative opinions on it.
I had thought you would have nerfed the cooldown add-ons to compensate and perhaps forgot to mention because 1-second fatigue that you don't even need to earn is... just ridiculous. With that, you charge like a bull, let them drop a pallet, frenzy, vault, catch up, recover in 1 second, and get a down with little counterplay depending on the loop you're at. Frenzy should never have its recovery under 1-second. Heck, Old Legion's ability to have a 1.75-sec cooldown was argued as being too short.
When you make a post asking/suggesting changes to a killer that has the capacity to make players have to change/adjust their playstyles, there will be disagreements. Thus far, your responses to these disagreements have been ranging from rude, "don't like it, make your own" and downright insulting, "You literally didn't even read the post. That's pathetic."
Nonetheless, I wish you a good day,
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Hi, Legion main here since he launched, this is really terrible, doesn't fix his issues, makes his current ones significantly worse, and blatently ruins the fun on him for both sides. Lets go over why
Base changes
Get rid of the chain thing, he should be rewarded for chaining, not hurt for it. The entire point of Legion is to be a chaining, obnoxious killer.
Addon changes: Not going over each, but all don't fix his already pretty bad addons, the buff to Iri button doesn't fix its issues and doesn't save it from being a mediocre addon to begin with, Stab Wounds Stufy is absolutely unhealthy for the game, and would make even me want to cry, the Blade family is attrocious.
Perk Changes, specifrically Mad Grit: What on earth is this??? You do realize this is insanely strong.
Please revise this heavily.
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