Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Get all the details on our forums: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436478/sign-up-now-to-receive-a-recap-of-your-2024-dead-by-daylight-stats/p1?new=1
Solving tunnel and camp: shared hook counts
Currently each survivor has to be hooked 3 times (or go through 3 hook stages) to be sacrificed. So it is relatively easy to tunnel a single survivor out or camp them to death (Bubba).
My suggestion:
Each survivor has to be hooked only 2 times to be sacrificed (or go through 2 hook stages), BUT there are 4 hook stages shared between survivors. It means that the first 4 hooks or hook stages will be subtracted from this shared hook count, not from the personal one.
How does this solve tunneling and camping? Tunneling a single survivor would mean that they need to be hooked 6 times! Also camping would take a long 6 hook stages!
Possible balancing options: Limit how many hook stages can a single survivor use from this shared count. E.g. each survivor can use at most only 2 out of the 4, which would mean that some survivors would have 4 hook stages instead of the current 3.
Possible issues: Survivors killing themselves on hook could hurt the team more, but they already hurt, so the situation is not getting much worse. Possibly kobe attempts should be disbaled after 1 hook stage, struggling should happen only at the last hook stage. In the meantime they would just hang.
Let me know what you think. But keep the discussion on point: how to improve this system, what are some other possible issues and how to fix them, etc. I want constructive feedback. I don't care about your personal issues with some tbagging survivors or how to nerf dead hard, etc. Open a separate forum thread for those.
Comments
-
The big problem is not the camping and tunneling, it's how long it takes to down a survivor and hook them. It shouldn't take over a minute to get your first down, and once you get that first down they shouldn't be invulnerable for another minute no matter what. A minute with three survivors on gens is 180/400 completed. Add another minute for the unhook and you get to 300/400 with two survivors staying on gens. It's not possible to pressure survivors fast enough with anything short of Blight or Nurse.
7 -
Yes maybe gen speeds would need to be addressed with this change, because it removes some killer pressure.
Note however that your numbers are just some theoretical worst case scenarios: survivors need time to find and move to the gens, they need to work only on the gens that will be finished, never get interrupted while you chase someone, and assumes that it takes so long to catch a survivor, which is also not true, and gets faster as pallets start to disappear.
0 -
I mean sure, but it also assumes that the person leaves the gen immediately and doesn't let the survivor on hook wait there for a bit which if they're camping they 100% should do.
Also survivors tend to spawn right next to a generator 80-90% of the time. If the team is a SWF they're unlikely to ever run the killer into each other, and SWF tend to be common at mid-to-high MMR.
3 -
I see a lot of sub-par loopers being absolutely tunneled the hell out of should that go live, as killers will pick whoever they can most easily catch. I also see players complaining en masse that they died even though they never got caught once.
It's an interesting concept, I just think it would introduce more issues than it solves.
0 -
Thanks for the feedback:
Subpar loopers are currently tunneled out even faster: they go down after 3 hooks. With this system they would last 6 hooks. Of course if the survivor would always purposefully run into the killer the survivor could really hurt the entire team. But I think these are just some weird cornercases that should happen only occasionally.
0 -
That's kind of my point. Right now if you're tunneled, it's over at 3. I can't see new/bad looper players being thrilled that they spend twice that time in an experience that so many have said they dislike.
0 -
Often the tunneled players complain that the game is too short if they get tunneled out. With this they would get 2x more chances and play time. Also the whole team benefits, it is generally better to have 4 survivors alive then to only 3 alive: 2 repair gens, one is tunneled, one is unhooking.
Also if the survivors notice that the killer is tunneling, they don't need to go for unhook immediately. The survivor can hang there for some time before reaching the next hook stage and possibly wait for a moment when it is possible to do a safe unhook.
0 -
With the state the game is in currently, I don't think survivors need more second chances. If anything they need to die more quickly so that they have at least some respect for the killer rather than clicky-clicky t-baggy.
7 -
This is a huge change that would absolutely wreck the balance that this game has. That being said, I really like the idea. I do think that other balancing changes would need to happen for it to go live.
0 -
I feel like this would actually increase tunneling and milking the weak link? You can essentially pull hook stages off other survivors by going after the easiest one to catch, and then continuing to go after them when they're already injured and right in front of you. It takes longer to delete a survivor from the game, but then everyone else only has two lives instead of three. The thousand hour loop god Nea would have bought way more team time out of her eventual hook state than the Claudette who made it ten feet away from her hook before she got downed again.
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would go over well in practice.
3 -
Bubbas been doing nutso pressure for me recently
0 -
This will never happen for one reason.
The developers have stated many times that tunneling and camping are legitimate strategies. In fact, I won't name names, but one of the developers is a Nemesis main (or was) and tunneled and facecamped a streamer friend of mine. When we realized he was actually a developer (we looked at his Steam profile and found out he was actually streaming at the time himself.)
So, yeah. IT sucks as a strategy when you are a survivor, but it's not changing.
EDIT: Also to be clear, my intent in mentioning that developer is not direct criticism, but just to illustrate why as much as survivor mains hate camping and tunneling, you have said many times it's a legitimate strategy.
3 -
If you hook 5 times with 4 survivors remaining, 5 gens will be done 100% of time since every survivors can waste 180seconds of time safely with just shift+w and safe palette with dead hard each time.
game just doesn't work without tunneling/camping since it's fundamentally broken, you can't really fix it.
0 -
Somebody needs to try pig with pentimento plaything DMS pr.
0 -
Survivors will have bad time even now if there is a weak link. The weak link gets tunneled out with 3 hooks and usually it is a very hard situation after that.
With my proposal: If there is a very weak link, survivors can decide to not unhook the person. Or they could wait until it becomes really safe to unhook. The weak links need to learn to play extremely safely and stealthily.
1 -
The thing is, even when there's a weak link who gets sacrificed early, if the other three survivors are very good loopers and are overall better players than the killer, they can still escape - probably not all of them, but one or two can make it out the gates. I've had it happen on both ends.
I think this change would kill that. While you are correct that this can be bypassed by choosing not to unhook... is leaving people to die on hook because they're not good enough at running away from someone who's tunneling them really something that should be incentivized? Think of what that'll do to solo queue. MMR already incentivizes people to bail instead of saving each other at the end; now you'd make it where the correct decision is to leave players on hook early on if you didn't think they were good enough, or they don't have chase perks. If the killer tunnels, unhooking teammates that looked kind of dopey becomes a liability as well as a necessity. And that's another kind of awful, because you can't really tell if someone is bad at the game or if they got caught off-guard in a bad area based on one chase. Was someone a doofus who ran into the killer, or did they intentionally throw away a health state to distract the killer from something else? If I see someone who isn't the obsession get injured and then go down ten seconds later on my HUD - did they get spotted and immediately go down, or had the killer been chasing them for a whole minute and then everything fell apart really quickly for them? Or maybe you can see that David has been occupying the killer for two minutes, but then it turns out he did that because he predropped most the pallets on the map and he's a potato without them. You can't make the right judgement call on your teammates based on what little you observe. By the time you've seen enough, it's probably too late. But people are going to make judgements off the first things they see - I know I do. But I'll still go unhook the players I'm going full SMH at because no matter how questionable their decisionmaking is, I'm probably still worse off without them. If that changes...
The whole thing is super cutthroat and I think a lot of people would make decisions other people disagreed with. Overall I definitely don't think this would disincentivize tunneling. Camping, yes - it would make facecamping unviable. But tunneling was always more powerful than facecamping anyway.
0 -
Survivors should be punished for having weak link though, they are team.
0 -
My proposal does not remove the possibility of camp or tunnel, just makes it a less viable strategy at the start of the game. Mid and end game (if the killer already has some hooks) it becomes again a viable strategy.
1 -
They should be punished, but I am not sure if quickly tunneling that single person out is the most fun way of punishment. Also in my opinion it is not a fun game where early on it is decided that one side has no chance of success. 3 survivors have drastically less chance then 4, if this happens early on, the survivors have 0 chance of success.
Also there are cases when someone doesn't need to be a weak link to get tunneled out of the game. And even a great survivor can be camped out the same like a noob - they both hang the same way on the hook.
And if you want to say that "But killer is also not fun", yes I agree they need changes as well, but it can be handled separately, and this thread is not here to discuss that.
0 -
I mean BHVR could fix it, but they'd need to balance for competent survivors and SWFs, but they seem to only balance for fresh install survivors.
A camping killer has no pressure. It takes two minutes to die on hook. In that time survivors get roughly 360 seconds of generator time, out of 400. That's basically the entire game right there.
0 -
All it takes is one player who wants to die, or one weak player who is bad to screw it up for everyone.
0 -
Yep, it's a team based game.
0 -
I think something like this would be great!
1 -
Sorry but this would make the game be even worse. If you have played any killer and if you have ever gotten good teams against you, you know even getting 2 hooks in games is sometimes difficult.
How would you balance this to killers?
0 -
How many hooks you can get against good players is not related to this change, so bringing it up as some counter argument doesn't make much sense. If you can get only two hooks with my proposed changes, you would get only two hooks in the current system as well. So my proposal is not making it worse.
0 -
I mean it'll go one of two ways with the proposal: Either one player gets farmed for all their hook states, or survivors can never be down a player no matter what.
0 -
If one survivor gets farmed that's the mistake of survivors for not doing safe unhooks even if they have enough time for it. Or it is a facecamping killer in which case the survivors have plenty of times to do all the gens, so killers would get used to not facecamp, because it is boring and they lose.
0 -
Anyway it could be tried to see how it works out. It is easy to balance with the parameter that determines how many shared hooks can a single survivor use out of the total 4.
Setting it to 1 would result in the same system as we have today, each survivor would have 3 hook stages.
Setting it to 2 would mean that some survivors could have up to 4 hook stages: (4, 4, 2, 2) or (4, 3, 3, 2).
Etc.
0 -
This will start a psychological war.
The killer will camp not because camping is cost effective but because IF the survivor decide he do not want to wait 6 whole stages on the hook before dying and start to committ suicide it is a free win for you.
In a SWF killers will be stomped, not only it is the worst possible match but you neither can camp neither you can push a survivor into committing hook suicide.
Against solo killer will stomp survs because a solo easily do not want to stay SIX MINUTES on the hook, not farming ANY POINT to allow complete strangers to win!
Not only this is wrong but the strong will take advantage on the weaks thanks to this change!
0 -
Yes, suiciding on hook could be an issue, that's why I mentioned in my post, that Kobe is allowed only at the first hook, and struggling starts only before you die.
Yes, you will not be able camp for SWF, but that's intended. The purpose of this change is to remove early camping in game.
Yeah, solo on hook for long time would not get many points so maybe that should be changed somehow by giving more rewards while you are on hook. But also killer would not get many points for camping the whole game, so it is possible it would not be that common behavior. It has to be tested and if issues arise then addressed.
We can start gradually, i.e. first allow that a single survivor can get at most 2 hooks from the shared hook count. This would mean that some survivors could have at most 4 hook stages.
0 -
Solo on hook for long time then will DC!
Are you going to stay SIX MINUTES looking the face of the killer in a challenge of patience with no reward?
Early camp is useful against SWF because SWF only have one weakness, their altruism!
If you clearly see it is a SWF what are you going to do? Let them drive you crazy or grab one of them in the basement and bait the others?
Until strong cohordinated teams will be such powerful you can't take away this strategy from killers.
0 -
As I said, it has to be tested how frequent that situation would be that the killer would facecamp for six minutes.
Camp against coordinated teams is not useful, because they tell each other to rush gens.
This change is here to discourage players like you to basement camp early on the game. If you can't otherwise handle good teams/players than you should just simply lose and get to a lower MMR.
0 -
Camp with cohordinated teams can be useful, it depends from the level of their altruism and confidence.
If they often take hits for each other and never let you hook without disturbing you can be 90% sure that if you bait they are going to come.
The way you see and adress the situation is misleading (you. Is misleading you!).
Players "like you" to "early camp"? What is a player "like me"?
I never early camp, against a sweaty SWF team you must be very luck to even have the opportunity to "early camp"!
Your change is not making difficult early camp! AT ALL! It is making difficult bait camp!
If i lose 4 gens after the first chase because they rush the only strategy is bait camp!
If they have 6 hooks of time this strategy will not be available.
This means the genrushing will be a strategy without consequences!
0 -
And again an idea to get rid of camping ( wich should be done atleast face camping) that is just: here a system that only punishes the killer and makes the game even harder for them. Try to come up with an idea so killer don't camp because they actually get something from not camping instead of hitting at them with a club. But one thing Is sure with your idea if this would be live you won't be camped anymore cause you would sit in q for an hour+
2 -
If you don't camp or tunnel early game this change does not really affect you as a killer.
If you camp or tunnel early game because that's the only way you can get kills then maybe you are just going against too good survivors and your real place would be in a bit lower MMR.
0 -
Wait maybe I got your idea wrong. You want to give extra hook stages to survs right? So no matter if I camp or not I have to get mor hooks over all. When I don't camp I have to make more chases wich eat a ton of time right now.
And yes you are right I think my place should be lower in mmr to but the whole mmr system isn't working when I go against players with 3khours and more regularly and I have only 200 something is wrong I have many games I go out with 0k sometimes not even every survs sees a hook cause they are simply better wich I know but I can't controlle wich survs I get so sometimes I just need to get nasty or the game is just a beat the killer till he cry party
0 -
The issue is you think every killer that camp is an ######### that want an easy win or to piss you off.
There are games that can be recovered from the killer only camping.
And these games and these situations are NEVER about the last hooks.
If i managed to reach the second half of the 12 hooks it is not really a gam where i need to camp.
The game where i am pushed to camp are the cursed ones where you have an awful RNG, wrong map, wrong SWF, 3 gens lost in 2 minutes, jungle jims connected and so on...
You want to solve the face camp? First thing you must do is ask yourself "why do killer camp? Do they always camp because they are noobs or frustrated idiots? Or maybe there are some situation where the system force them to camp?"
0 -
There would be still 12 hook stages in total like currently. But you would not be able to tunnel out the first person with 3 hooks, because 4 hook stages are shared between the players. So in early game tunneling and camping would be less viable. Mid game and end game if you already have hooks, camping and tunneling would feel the same.
Matchmaking needs a fix, but that is a separate topic.
1 -
Mid and end game if you already have some hooks you could camp or tunnel the same way. My change makes early game tunneling or camping less viable.
If tiles or RNG are broken then they need a fix, but the fix should not be allowing early game tunnel or camp, because killers can do it regardless of how good the RNG and tiles actually are.
Also if the survivors outplay you, then it is also possible that you got matched with a lot better survivors than you are and you simply don't deserve a win in that match.
0 -
Literally the only reason killers camp or tunnel is because it's a SWF (already really strong and does not need buffs) or the gens are flying too fast because all the survivors spawned on the gens and the gens are all socially distancing from each other.
Tunneling/Camping is what one might call a "Symptom" of a problem, not the root "Cause" of a problem. Perhaps addressing that there's still near-infinites in the game for M1 killers like double LT, or LT into Shack Window. Maybe addressing the killer's lack of map pressure and how ineffective M1 Killers are due to all the second change perks, healing, etc.
Survivors already have plenty of time to do gens? It only takes 400 seconds without a toolbox, great skill checks, or perks to complete all the gens, divided by 3 is only 133 seconds for both hook states. That's assuming the killer instantly downed and hooked the first person. If you gave them a third, fourth, or even sixth hook state, the survivors could do all the gens, open the doors, still get the unhook, and the game is basically unwinnable for killers.
Not to mention how badly you could get screwed if you're a solo queue and you're with a 3-man SWF, and they decide to let you stay on hook and t-bag the killer for the 5 minute experience of being hooked and doing literally nothing. The griefing potential is already bad for solo queue.
0
