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Why Survivors Have Not More Anti-Camp & Anti-Tunnel Perks?
Question is on title.
BT & DS only viable perks against tunnelling & camping. And both perks released years ago. But killers takes different type perks for against generators with most of new chapters.
So would you like more perks for help against this strategies? Or they would make game more unfun for killerside? And do we really need more anti-camp and anti-tunnel perks? What do you think?
Comments
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Do you want all Killers to leave? If yes, then add new anti-camping and anti-tunneling Perks. If not, then buff Killers to not need to use camping and tunneling
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1. A lot of the new and reworked killer perks are designed to try and keep the killer from camping, by giving info on where survivors are, the new killer is also built to try and move away from camping, by being a teleporting type who makes going for the sneaky hits fun again.
2. Don't forget kindred. Best anti-camping perk in the game by far. Also WGLF definitely doesn't hurt. I think a lot of people tend to overlook them because they aren't perks that stun the killer or provide a health state, but I'd argue that 99% of this game is about information advantage.
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I support this idea actually. Buffing killers to viable on all ranks and nerfing camp & tunnel would save this game.
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both BT & DS is extremely simple as is, one literally gives you free escape because reasons, and one literally makes you invincible because reasons.
There CAN'T be more camping/tunneling perks as those two are the ultimate of all it is.
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Yea Kindred is very good, and Camaraderie is very underrated IMO. It’s helped me out a LOT in solo que. It gives my team more times to do gens when I have that one person who is nearby but too scared to go for a save (rightfully so), and too green to realize they really should be on a gen. At least it gives the other two survivors get value. Then during endgame my team has time to heal and find each other because i also have kindred on that build. Worked out a few times for everyone to escape.
Question, does any one know if Camaraderie gives your teammates the walki-talkie icon to let them know it’s active, if they’re close by?
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Oh, and another decent anti-camp perk is Breakdown. It can be a little situational at times because the killer can just move whoever got downed to another hook, but from my experience a lot of killers tend to panic when they realize the hook is no longer there and make bad moves like drop the survivor & try to chase after whoever got away.
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No; kinship gives no indication it is working to your team. It is strong enough it's used in tournaments but really needs a SWF to get the most out of it.
The strat there is if the killer is camping a survivor to death 1 person just swings by and activates it, then the team secures another 3 gens for the kill.
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Oh ok thanks. Thats too bad it doesn’t show up to let your teammate know. So one player doesn’t need to stay? They just need to run by, activate, and hop on a gen?
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"What we should do is nerf your OP tactics while leaving mine untouched, that'll make things balanced"
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I never said DS or BT need nerfs. I'm saying no player in their right mind will play Killer if tunneling and camping were impossible
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I think one of the best anti-tunneling perks is Devour Hope. You give the killer some pretty juicy and cool buffs and rewards from staying the f away from the hook, without hurting them ... IF Devour Hope stays up, which it seldom does.
Maybe we could build a basekit mechanic on this? Obviously not with exposed or anything like that, but maybe give the killer one stack of "Entities blessing" for each survivor unhooked thats 34m away, and each stack gives a global gen/heal speed debuff to all survivors. Gens getting slammed hard and healing being so fast is one of the main reason that a game is slipping through a killers hands and they must resort back to tunneling, in order to turn the game into a 3v1 asap, or loose miserably.
Another thing that could be tackled is the hold w meta. i dont know, but maybe give Killers one use of the Halloween blight slide when survivor and killer are just running without being engaged in any gym or loop. Just running away in a straight line shouldn't be THAT effective in such a game, yet it is, and its wasting so much killer time, a killers most precious commodity. And same thing as above applies here: if the game is slipping, the killer might feel they have to resort to tunneling, or loose miserably.
So IMHO the best anti-tunneling is making general killer gameplay less miserable and more fun. Killers enjoy some looping too, if they have a reasonable chance to win. I havn't touched the can of worms that is DH, being looped for a long time and then trying to cash in on the survivors second mistake, just to have it taken away without any counterplay (if they know what they are doing) feels very disheartening. But the devs said that they are looking into DH, and I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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Kindred is not good. It is info perk. And SWF already has this info and they don't need to use Kindred for it. Kindred is one of the band-aids.
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Yeah a survivor can just get into range, activate it, then leave. That's exactly what they do when the killer is someone you can't save from. But still, in solo Q it's not going to help that much. You need the coordination for other people to be slamming gens while it's active for it to be any good.
BT/DS/Kinship/Exhaustion perk would be a great anti-tunnel build on a few members of a SWF. The killer will absolutely get punished with losing the game sometimes off those perks if you are of equal skill to them.
It's so strong that's banned in the tournaments too, at least from being used multiple times. The game is balanced for solo.
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“Tunneling” is a bogus complaint, it’s literally survivors complaining when they’ve been down two or three times in a row. I get called a tunneler randomly in after game chats by survivors who simply happened to be the ones I found and downed first for instance and it’s obvious it’s simply a buzzword built by sore losers.
Literal Face Camping is a more legitimate game issue because, if face camping were a viable strategy to win the game, then it would be a dull game loop of a killer downing someone, standing at a hook for two minutes with no action on either side, and then maybe doing it again even on the second survivor to some extent. The only thing that makes this less prevalent currently is it’s typically more time efficient not to just face camp but to proactively find and chase survivors so that at most one survivor is doing the gens at a given moment. The devs have indicated a couple of times they actively experiment internally with ways to disincentivize face camping but to date hadn’t had luck with a solution that didn’t break something else in the gameplay. They hinted they are considering maybe making Borrowed Time base kit, in which case they would probably pair it with a broad killer buff like slightly increasing the time it takes to complete gens to keep the scales balanced, but who knows if or when that would happen?
Beyond that, other types of “camping” are bogus complaints, it’s basically just complaining about zone defense at that point. I had a survivor complain about me “camping the gens” for instance, even the other survivors mocked that guy.
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I just really dislike the attitude of 'just buff killers to not need camping/tunnelling'. if killers don't need those tactics, they absolutely need to be gutted.
They're also possibly bad balance points, because overall statistics show a kill rate above 50%. If non-tunnelling and non-camping is so unviable, that means that tunnelling and camping are pulling the numbers up, which likely means they're overpowered.
Overall, the game needs a balancing reset by crippling unfun strategies on both sides, like flashlight save bullying, BNPs, tunnelling and camping.
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Ok thanks.
I may not get full value from Kinship (ugh not a fan of the ST DLC Perk name changes at all), but it has saved me a lot. When it came through, it shined really well. Even when I die. I’m just glad when the other 3 make it out.
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Last time I checked, Cama gives no clear indication to teammates that it's active or that the hooked player even has it to begin with. Just another way the game screws over solo players. Why? Who knows.
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The average kill rate stats are useless. They take everything into account, from little Timmy who just got the game, to Hex: Virginity who played the game since beta non-stop and has over 12000 hours. Most players are around Timmy, somewhat higher, and people don't know how to counter tunneling and camping over there. We don't need the game to cater to the people who don't know how to play the game.
Camping and tunneling could get nerfed if Killers didn't need them, but the devs are never going to do that
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The average kill rate stats are useless. They take everything into account, from little Timmy who just got the game, to Hex: Virginity who played the game since beta non-stop and has over 12000 hours. Most players are around Timmy, somewhat higher, and people don't know how to counter tunneling and camping over there. We don't need the game to cater to the people who don't know how to play the game.
All of that is conjecture though.
And it also isn't a solid argument against any balance decisions derived from it. Balancing decisions must take into account the average match that occurs when an average player hits 'play'. Top-down balancing can have crippling impacts on the game outside of that narrow niche of players.
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Average killer players are getting dunked on every two matches, it means survivors should be nerfed hard?
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Did i said anything about my skills? Or did i said i need this perks? This is forum and "normal" people discuss here for game healthy, perks, balance etc.
So maybe you get good at how to talk with people. Clearly you are not good with that.
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I think it's a balance thing. The people at behavior have said several times that camping and tunneling are valid strategies and so it transpires that they don't intend to remove that option. Sure face camping might be a less than desirable outcome but it's part of the game.
There is also the fact that there are more perks that synergize with DS and BT pretty well increasing escaping potential, so what you are really asking for isn't more perks but stronger perks to pile up on top. That could very well cause both strategies unviable, an outcome that the devs have stated they don't want.
I really don't see a problem here. Tunneling isn't easy at all unless the survivor is very unskilled, at which point, well what do you expect to happen?
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I am not complaining about anything here. I asked question to people. You looks like have serious problems and i will leave you with them.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
I had a blast yesterday running Guardian, BT, WMI, Windows (to help myself), with a flashlight. Huntress tried to kill this D. King the entire game and our solo lobby cranked gens. I was the only one who tried to save both times attaching Guardian and BT to him to give a fighting chance (longer he stays up = more time on gens) and ######### you not he made it out with a 3 man body block to the gate. Those are the games that make survivor fun....team work that succeeds. Even got a lovely message from King "I would die for you" GG thank you.
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If they consistently need those things that's an issue with their skill.
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Not really. Most Killers straight up lose when playing "fairly"
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Me when I can't read
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Most players aren't that skilled. So yes, alot of them would lose without those things because they never developed beyond that. Of course that can easily go for survivors who can't do well without DH and old DS.
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Are you pulling a 50% winrate out of thin air and saying that means it's UP?
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Who's talking about Killer players? I'm saying Killers themselves can't win without camping and tunneling. Nurse and Blight might be the only exceptions
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Whereas I think the weakness of alot of killers is massively overstated.
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Even if you did, it wouldn’t stop the basement bubbas or this. Would just make it easier for them
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There's plenty of anti camping and anti tunneling perks. Take fewer meta perks and fill your build with guardian kinship and kindred if you have to
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Not at all. Nurse Blight and a few A tier Killers are the only ones who can deal with the current CoH meta. Everyone else deals with it by camping and tunneling
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Survivors don't need more anti-camp/tunnel perks than they already have. Players must accept that even if they personally don't like these tactics its a part of the game. Like I get that being camped sucks but what else do you expect the killer to do? Not everyone is gonna make it out just because you want them to. Wanting more anti tunnel/camp perks is just saying that you don't want the killer to every have any kind of advantage and want easy escapes.
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I don’t think the issue is not having enough of these, but rather making the ones we have actually worthwhile. Looking at you, Camaraderie.
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Cause they don't need any more.
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Survivors already have 30+ second chance perks
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This is actually a very simple answer. There aren’t more, because there is not supposed to be a counter to those strategies from perks alone. The counterplay is meant to be done through smart gameplay of the other survivors.
If someone is being camped/tunneled, the other survivors who are being pressured absolutely zero power out the generators. Also things like taking Protection Hits/hook trades as necessary to further waste the killer’s time.
Perks like BT/DS are meant to de-incentivize it by making the killer have to waste some time to do those strategies recklessly, thus making it not worth it against good survivors unless there’s a specific situational benefit from doing it. They are not meant to hard counter it, and were never meant to.
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Do you want all killers to leave?
Yes. The ones who piss and moan about anti-tunneling and camping perks can vanish into thin air for all I care.
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I hope you realize BHVR is the one that explicitly acknowledges tunneling and camping are valid strategies that they balance this game around.
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So you don't want to be able to play the game anymore?
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Nemesis is doing his own job, it was your mistake to dare play as Jill against him.
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nemesis players are weird. They either give me hatch because I’m Jill or they tunnel and camp me out of the game because I’m a Jill. No consistency lmao
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This may be an unpopular opinion but hard tunneling and camping is a trap. It allows people in the short term to 3 or 4K more but that places you against people who are more likely to escape (ergo your matches get sweatier). In the long term, you end up in matches you have to tunnel and camp in because otherwise you would get stomped.
I avoid tunneling and camping and I get escapes in games I could have had kills but my games are pretty chill overall. Also, the level of survivor toxicity I see has diminished greatly from before MMR (possibly since there are now more people tunneling and camping so a killer that doesn't is more noticeable). I still get toxicity at times but it's far less.
I don't care about gaining in MMR though and actually view rising quickly in MMR in this game to be a punishment. I care far more about pips which gives me more BP and is something I can actually see.
Also, the part which makes my position more viable for me is that I don't derive the majority of my fun from winning. For the people who do, the current state of killer is abysmal. Also in my opinion, Otz was completely correct when he said this game is balanced if you use the dirtiest tactics. However, those tactics imply doing something that diminishes fun for the other side.
Overall, I think the best thing would be for BHVR to make facecamping and tunneling really difficult and, at the same time, buff Killers enough that people won't need to camp and tunnel to win.
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If they are giving you hatch, they are not real Nemesis. Real Nemesis know they have to destroy STARS.
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Most of the people who camp do it out of spite imo, your time could be used elsewhere pressuring gens, I understand it's situational, but I guess it's just for me I've just never done it, I've always felt like my time is well spent elsewhere
Can't really say the same for tunneling because while they might do it out of spite, it's less noticeable i feel, idk, not trying to come off rude, just my take
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I’m not a real nemesis either lmao. I meme around with the Jill’s
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