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How are Moris balanced?
Moris reduce Survivor's lives from 2 to 1 and there's no counterplay to them. They give Killers an advantage that Survivors have no answer to, and Moris aren't even tied to a perk or add-on; they're just offerings burnt so Killers don't sacrifice anything using one.
It directly aids in completing the Killer's main objective of the game. Should offerings really allow a powerful advantage like that? Imagine the complaints Killers would have if there were a Survivor offering that instantly set a generator's progress to 25% per offering burnt. There's nothing like that for Survivors, and there shouldn't be, just as there shouldn't be Moris that are tied to offerings.
And don't tell me that a little extra fog or a couple missing hooks are as impactful as being able to outright remove a player from the game. For Survivors, The Shroud of Binding is perhaps the closest thing to the unfair advantage Moris provide the Killer, and I'd gladly delete that from the game if it meant Moris weren't offerings anymore.
You can keep the Moris in the game, but they should be implemented in a different way.
Comments
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The do lose something. They give up the BP they earned on getting it, they give up selecting a map most fitting for their killer, they give up increasing BP gain. It really doesnt matter what the Survivor alternative is, because while there isnt, Survivors can coordinate to have 4 impactful offerings as opposed to 1.
And, yes, Moris do have a counter. Its called not hook rushing, good stealth and lengthy chases.6 -
Well, yellow rarity ones are pretty useless typically, green ones are nice to get a Survivor out of the way quicker so you can manage things better, and pink ones are that of dreams where you slaughter an entire team. But, there are better things to pop as a Killer such as Survivor Pudding and other exp buffs that make the game worth more than a Mori. All in all, only pink ones are worth fretting over and they are pink, which means they're rare. You're not going to encounter em every game.
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@PigNRun said:
They give up the BP they earned on getting it,5,000 or 7,000 BP to gain an advantage that almost guarantees a win in your next game? Sure, I'll take it.
they give up selecting a map most fitting for their killer
When you can cut your match time in half with Moris, lack of map selection will more or less even out.
they give up increasing BP gain
A guaranteed win may be just as good or better than BP gain offerings.
It really doesnt matter what the Survivor alternative is, because while there isnt, Survivors can coordinate to have 4 impactful offerings as opposed to 1.
The only stackable offering that might make a small to medium difference are Petrified Oak, and you'll be extremely lucky to find all 4 survivors that have it. It's much more likely the Killer will have a Mori offering.
And, yes, Moris do have a counter. Its called not hook rushing, good stealth and lengthy chases.
So basically playing the game as a Survivor normally would, but the other team is given a significant advantage against you they don't normally have. Got it.
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At least it's more interesting than getting camped on hook. Or even being hooked.
Enjoy the show.4 -
@aarongai said:
5,000 or 7,000 BP to gain an advantage that almost guarantees a win in your next game? Sure, I'll take it.If you get a single Survivor out of the game early, it means the match will be, in your words, almost longer. Just to get your crappy Dying Light debuff on everyone, or done with your daily on your low tier killer. If you take out everyone on their second hook, that is stronger, but, its an ultra rare. as Aerys said, you wont be finding it in every single match. Same as not seeing instant medkits in every match.
And, a mori in no way guarantees a victory. We now go back to the old debate of "Pro Survivors vs Pro Killers". You know, having to rely on a Survivor's mistakes to do good, blah blah, SWF coordination, blah blah, the Killer only being able to keep one Survivor away from a generator at a time, etc. Not going to go through that again.
@aarongai said:
When you can cut your match time in half with Moris, lack of map selection will more or less even out.Same thing as above. Maps do matter, a lot. Imagine a stealth killer in Lery's versus an open map. Imagine a killer which is less kitted for a chase in a nasty map with loops. Or a bunch of Claudettes in Family Residence with a killer that doesnt have good tracking. Whatever map you get while using a mori will heavily dictate on your playstyle, and such playstyle will not always be the best for your killer.
As you said, the length of the match is different with moris indeed, either shorter or longer. But, there you go, why complain about moris if map selection evens it out? In your reply you are basically saying selecting a map is the same as a mori.
@aarongai said:
A guaranteed win may be just as good or better than BP gain offerings.Depends on the match. Remember killing with moris gives considerably less BP than just hooking Survivors, a lot less.
@aarongai said:
The only stackable offering that might make a small to medium difference are Petrified Oak, and you'll be extremely lucky to find all 4 survivors that have it. It's much more likely the Killer will have a Mori offering.And? Its not about stackable offerings. Its about Survivors being able to use offerings of multiple types without being able to give up anything, unlike killers, who potentially give up or miss out on stuff when using a mori.
@aarongai said:
So basically playing the game as a Survivor normally would, but the other team is given a significant advantage against you they don't normally have. Got it.Well, yes. That is exactly how consumables work. A player brings their consumables to gain an advantage they dont have in every match. Same goes for items, add-ons and perks (to a lesser degree). Lets see it the other way then. A killer (without Franklin's Demise) gets a lobby full of flashlight-ers, medkit-ers, whatever. Survivors brought in those items to gain a significant advantage. And they can, because Killers can as well.
What Im simply saying is that getting good is a counter. We are not talking about something unachievable. You can see it coming when you see a killer using a secret offering (no, Shrouds of Separation arent good). Thus you need to be in your toes. That means that you can try your hardest to not get caught, instead of taking unnecessary risks. And, no, the "usual Survivor playstyle" is not the "most optimal/normal Survivor playstyle".
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Instant medkits that heal from dying to full are uh...pretty frustrating to deal with while they're wiping the blood from an already finished chase. Just to start it fully over. Like a full extra life. If only the killers had something to counter that by removing a life....aarongai said:Moris reduce Survivor's lives from 2 to 1 and there's no counterplay to them. They give Killers an advantage that Survivors have no answer to, and Moris aren't even tied to a perk or add-on; they're just offerings burnt so Killers don't sacrifice anything using one.
It directly aids in completing the Killer's main objective of the game. Should offerings really allow a powerful advantage like that? Imagine the complaints Killers would have if there were a Survivor offering that instantly set a generator's progress to 25% per offering burnt. There's nothing like that for Survivors, and there shouldn't be, just as there shouldn't be Moris that are tied to offerings.
And don't tell me that a little extra fog or a couple missing hooks are as impactful as being able to outright remove a player from the game. For Survivors, The Shroud of Binding is perhaps the closest thing to the unfair advantage Moris provide the Killer, and I'd gladly delete that from the game if it meant Moris weren't offerings anymore.
You can keep the Moris in the game, but they should be implemented in a different way.
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@aarongai said:
Moris reduce Survivor's lives from 2 to 1 and there's no counterplay to them. They give Killers an advantage that Survivors have no answer to, and Moris aren't even tied to a perk or add-on; they're just offerings burnt so Killers don't sacrifice anything using one.This is balanced, because a) survivor are already in such a big advantage in this game, that killer sometimes just need a lift, just to keep their "fun" going and make them keep playing. b) because SWF is in the game and gives the survivor the equivalent of like 5 perks for free with no counterplay c) they are very rare and are used in less than 3% of all kills (all Moris included, even the yellow one).
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The yellow one could use buff to be honest. It's so useless.
They should be
Yellow: kill one after hook.
Green: kill two after hook.
Red: kill four after hook.0 -
@Carpemortum said:
Instant medkits that heal from dying to full are uh...pretty frustrating to deal with while they're wiping the blood from an already finished chase. Just to start it fully over. Like a full extra life. If only the killers had something to counter that by removing a life....Medkits are ITEMS, Moris are OFFERINGS. You can't compare the two. Items are supposed to have a noticeable effect on the game, offerings should be superfluous. You're missing the point. Whether insta-heal medkits are OP or not is a discussion for another thread.
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@aarongai said:
@Carpemortum said:
Instant medkits that heal from dying to full are uh...pretty frustrating to deal with while they're wiping the blood from an already finished chase. Just to start it fully over. Like a full extra life. If only the killers had something to counter that by removing a life....Medkits are ITEMS, Moris are OFFERINGS. You can't compare the two. Items are supposed to have a noticeable effect on the game, offerings should be superfluous. You're missing the point. Whether insta-heal medkits are OP or not is a discussion for another thread.
The killer is solo and uses one offering for a powerful effect.
The survivor are 4 player and all of them can use offerings.
Have you ever seen multiple mist offerings stacked?
Compare that and we are on a similar level of "unbalanced".8 -
Pig is amazing in the mist. Its perspective. What would you prefer, an offering that removes basement hooks? Or completes a generator?Wolf74 said:@aarongai said:
@Carpemortum said:
Instant medkits that heal from dying to full are uh...pretty frustrating to deal with while they're wiping the blood from an already finished chase. Just to start it fully over. Like a full extra life. If only the killers had something to counter that by removing a life....Medkits are ITEMS, Moris are OFFERINGS. You can't compare the two. Items are supposed to have a noticeable effect on the game, offerings should be superfluous. You're missing the point. Whether insta-heal medkits are OP or not is a discussion for another thread.
The killer is solo and uses one offering for a powerful effect.
The survivor are 4 player and all of them can use offerings.
Have you ever seen multiple mist offerings stacked?
Compare that and we are on a similar level of "unbalanced".1 -
To summarize yet another "I don't understand this killer feature" - response from killers "BECAUSE SWF!"
Y'all need to get over SWF. Its here to stay, it won't be "balanced" ever. They're not going to change it.
To answer @aarongai original question though - The counter to Mori are instant heal medkits.
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Yes, i understand.
Nobody likes the mori offering.
The devs showing us stats, but i think this stats prof nothing.
DC=Death.
When the killer use the mori=DC
DC=Derank
Derank= more fun
So yes, the stats are useless.
The Mori offering is only good, when you use Dying Light.
But the mori animation is pretty nice.
And the survivors have a bullshit item.
The key.
Mori offering and keys arent good things.
My opinion:
Fix game mechanics.
Gens are boring.
Games are too fast over.
Fix or delete the hatch.
Fix or delete mori offering and the key.0 -
They give a sense of satisfaction for playing the most stressful role. A full team mori is rare and smart play negates the lesser ones. Be glad they changed from the original setup. Besides, how many hooks do you need to survive? If its 1 or more, your pretty much at end game anyways.3
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@aarongai said:
Moris reduce Survivor's lives from 2 to 1 and there's no counterplay to them. They give Killers an advantage that Survivors have no answer to, and Moris aren't even tied to a perk or add-on; they're just offerings burnt so Killers don't sacrifice anything using one.It directly aids in completing the Killer's main objective of the game. Should offerings really allow a powerful advantage like that? Imagine the complaints Killers would have if there were a Survivor offering that instantly set a generator's progress to 25% per offering burnt. There's nothing like that for Survivors, and there shouldn't be, just as there shouldn't be Moris that are tied to offerings.
And don't tell me that a little extra fog or a couple missing hooks are as impactful as being able to outright remove a player from the game. For Survivors, The Shroud of Binding is perhaps the closest thing to the unfair advantage Moris provide the Killer, and I'd gladly delete that from the game if it meant Moris weren't offerings anymore.
You can keep the Moris in the game, but they should be implemented in a different way.
Insta heals increase survor lives by one or even by two in the ultra rare case. How is this balanced?
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@Master said:
Insta heals increase survor lives by one or even by two in the ultra rare case. How is this balanced?Again, insta-heal medkits are items, while Moris are offerings. That would be like comparing Huntress Iridescent hatchets with Survivor Petrified Oak offerings. Two completely different categories of things. It makes no sense to pair them.
My point remains that an offering is giving the Killer a major advantage versus the Survivor team, and Survivors don't have an offering of equal impact. I propose that either Moris be removed as offerings, or Survivors are given an offering that immediately completes 25% of a generator's progress when the game starts.
Sound ridiculous? Good, because that's basically what a Mori is, an offering that allows the Killer to complete his main objective significantly faster.
And to be clear, I play both sides. Moris have never felt balanced regardless of which side I played on. The game is a breeze on the Killer side with a Mori, but an almost certain loss on the Survivor side.
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Why would survivors need an item of equality? Killer is the "power role" and the mori still requires the work to be done. Both sides don't need to be equal, its an asymmetrical game. They add to the sense of pressure and are gone after use. Lastly, I thought the bnp gave 25% when successful since the rework.5
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@aarongai
If a Survivor pops a map with cornfields they've pretty much mori'd me. Also I played a round earlier with a Green Mori and forgot to kill anyone with it (much to my dismay since that really would've helped me out that game). As far as your logic goes I'd say it's fairly solid, a Mori is an offering that no Survivor can match with an offering of their own. But like Wolf said, there are four Survivors, each able to pop something, and there's 60s in which they can coordinate that via the chat box. If everyone pops the best luck offering they add 12% to the 4% base of unhooking yourself, so they'd have a 16% over 3 tries (which is around a 40% chance to actually getting off the hook on average), which is still crap but it's crazy better than before. Or like Wolf said just popping thicken mist together and making it a sea of clouds lol. What if the Survivors all popped remove 1 hook together? I feel like that'd have a rather large effect on the Killer.1 -
Alright, so I both agree and disagree with you. I don't feel that mori offerings are a problem at all, but I do have some frustrations with perk/add-on related moris.
The offerings are one time use and half the time don't even work out for the killer that played them. I view them as hard earned rewards for my opponent and if they manage to meet all of the requirements to mori me, then that's totally fine with me. They won fair and square and I won't take that away from them (it doesn't matter if I think they played scummily, camped, slugged, or whatever else)
The perks on the other hand... with the recent addition to rancor is kinda getting over the top. Moris are meant to be a rare and hard earned end to the survivors they play against, but I was sick of the Spirit's mori very very shortly after she came out. I'm starting to see other killers use it as well and it's just tiresome. I know many conditions need to be met for the perk and add-on related moris to be accomplished, but I feel like I see too many moris (especially from certain killers).
Do I think anything should be removed or reworked? Not really. Do I think they should tone down the flow of new mori enabled perks and such? Definately.1 -
@aarongai said:
Moris reduce Survivor's lives from 2 to 1 and there's no counterplay to them. They give Killers an advantage that Survivors have no answer to, and Moris aren't even tied to a perk or add-on; they're just offerings burnt so Killers don't sacrifice anything using one.It directly aids in completing the Killer's main objective of the game. Should offerings really allow a powerful advantage like that? Imagine the complaints Killers would have if there were a Survivor offering that instantly set a generator's progress to 25% per offering burnt. There's nothing like that for Survivors, and there shouldn't be, just as there shouldn't be Moris that are tied to offerings.
And don't tell me that a little extra fog or a couple missing hooks are as impactful as being able to outright remove a player from the game. For Survivors, The Shroud of Binding is perhaps the closest thing to the unfair advantage Moris provide the Killer, and I'd gladly delete that from the game if it meant Moris weren't offerings anymore.
You can keep the Moris in the game, but they should be implemented in a different way.
Survivors are not balanced, they are BROKEN AS HELL! But somehow, they still exist, so why would the devs bother about Moris in the first place???
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@aarongai said:
@Master said:
Insta heals increase survor lives by one or even by two in the ultra rare case. How is this balanced?Again, insta-heal medkits are items, while Moris are offerings. That would be like comparing Huntress Iridescent hatchets with Survivor Petrified Oak offerings. Two completely different categories of things. It makes no sense to pair them.
My point remains that an offering is giving the Killer a major advantage versus the Survivor team, and Survivors don't have an offering of equal impact. I propose that either Moris be removed as offerings, or Survivors are given an offering that immediately completes 25% of a generator's progress when the game starts.
Sound ridiculous? Good, because that's basically what a Mori is, an offering that allows the Killer to complete his main objective significantly faster.
And to be clear, I play both sides. Moris have never felt balanced regardless of which side I played on. The game is a breeze on the Killer side with a Mori, but an almost certain loss on the Survivor side.
You are asking for old BNPs.
They had been nerfed for exactly that reason.
First Moris AND BNPs got a nerf, than the BNPs got another nerf, because of … guess what… BALANCE.
Now the offerings are more balanced than before, because the killer NEEDS the better offerings.
Because the game is ASYMETRICAL.
You have to compare 1 green Mori with 4 yellow mist offerings.
"Oh the killer can kill one person after he got hooked once, IF he can ever find someone in that mist!"4 -
He's coming for you.2 -
While I get what you're saying, I could give the EXACT same argument for multiple things the survivors have.
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@Blueberry said:
While I get what you're saying, I could give the EXACT same argument for multiple things the survivors have.We're not talking about multiple things, we're talking about one thing: Offerings. There is no offering for Survivors that matches the impact a Killer's Mori offering has on a game.
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@aarongai said:
@Blueberry said:
While I get what you're saying, I could give the EXACT same argument for multiple things the survivors have.We're not talking about multiple things, we're talking about one thing: Offerings. There is no offering for Survivors that matches the impact a Killer's Mori offering has on a game.
Offering = 1 use
Non offerings = multiple/unlimited usesIs the offering really the issue? I don't think so
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Someone got mori’d and didn’t like it :^)3
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I'm gonna bump this because Moris are still an issue (and will be until BHVR addresses it).
One idea might be to take Mori offerings out of the game, but allow Moris once the Exit Gates are powered.
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Moris are balanced because Survivors don't magically appear on the hook. The Killer has to waste time to get them there, allow for a rescue, waste more time chasing them down, and only then can the Survivor be killed. They also have to sacrifice an offering slot that could've been used for something else.
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@Orion said:
Moris are balanced because Survivors don't magically appear on the hook. The Killer has to waste time to get them there, allow for a rescue, waste more time chasing them down, and only then can the Survivor be killed. They also have to sacrifice an offering slot that could've been used for something else.Survivors don't magically appear on the hook regardless of the offerings burnt. Killers have to waste time in chases regardless of the offerings burnt. Moris just let the Killer skip the hooks and the chases, which are, you know, extremely significant time-consuming activities that help balance the game.
And again, no Killer offering has as large an impact on a game as a Mori offering. You can burn a map selection offering, but Survivors could negate it with their own. You can burn a Putrid Oak offering, but Survivors have their own version of that as well. But Survivors don't get an offering anything like a Mori. Nothing they have directly impacts generator repair progress (their main objective), so how is it balanced that the Killer gets an offering that aids in their main objective (killing Survivors).
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@aarongai said:
@Orion said:
Moris are balanced because Survivors don't magically appear on the hook. The Killer has to waste time to get them there, allow for a rescue, waste more time chasing them down, and only then can the Survivor be killed. They also have to sacrifice an offering slot that could've been used for something else.Survivors don't magically appear on the hook regardless of the offerings burnt. Killers have to waste time in chases regardless of the offerings burnt. Moris just let the Killer skip the hooks and the chases, which are, you know, extremely significant time-consuming activities that help balance the game.
And again, no Killer offering has as large an impact on a game as a Mori offering. You can burn a map selection offering, but Survivors could negate it with their own. You can burn a Putrid Oak offering, but Survivors have their own version of that as well. But Survivors don't get an offering anything like a Mori. Nothing they have directly impacts generator repair progress (their main objective), so how is it balanced that the Killer gets an offering that aids in their main objective (killing Survivors).
It's almost like ultra rare things are supposed to be powerful or something...
Survivors have Brand New Part. Given that they primarily use one of two items (Flashlight and Toolbox), they either have to "sacrifice" an add-on or "sacrifice" use of an item. Then, that Survivor can still put up a map offering that could effectively render the Killer's Mori worthless depending on how much the map favors the Survivors. That's without taking into account the three other offering slots, one per Survivor.0 -
@Orion said:
It's almost like ultra rare things are supposed to be powerful or something...
Survivors have Brand New Part. Given that they primarily use one of two items (Flashlight and Toolbox), they either have to "sacrifice" an add-on or "sacrifice" use of an item. Then, that Survivor can still put up a map offering that could effectively render the Killer's Mori worthless depending on how much the map favors the Survivors. That's without taking into account the three other offering slots, one per Survivor.Sure, ultra rare things should be powerful, but in that case, where's the Survivors' ultra rare offering that gives them 25% instant generator progression? Or even just an offering that prevents them from being Mori'd?
You can't compare items to offerings. Items and add-ons should have a direct impact on completing game objectives, offerings should not. Or if you argue that offerings should be allowed to have an impact on game objectives, give the Survivors the offering I mentioned above if the Killer is allowed to have their Mori offerings.
Also, you can never render a Mori worthless. The map selection may impact the Killer's ability to kill, but the Mori is still in effect. The Killer would have to be extremely unskilled to be unable to hook someone once to make use of it. A Mori will more than compensate for an inadequate map choice.
Yes, Survivors get 4 offering slots, but no matter what offerings they all burn, none will grant them an extra time on the hook or 25% generator progression that would rival the effect a Killer's Mori offering has on the game.
Post edited by aarongai on1 -
@aarongai you're right about mories not "balanced". One of the features of this game is that certain ultra rare addons and offerings can tip the balance strongly in favor of one party or the other. I actually don't like this about DBD (plenty of weaker killers are very addon dependent, and then there's also a number of quite powerful item+addon+offering combos on survivor side.
So, I understand your point, but there isn't really much to do about it, other then accepting that some trials are significantly more difficult than others. Survivors may complain a lot about moris and certain addons (Prayer Beads, 5 blinks, etc), and killers complain a lot about instaheals, and the general advantage of organized SWF groups.
I can suggest one thing to do if you're willing. Forget this pointless notion of "balance". This game is never going to be balanced. It would be impossible with so many killers, perks, items, and not least of all, maps that all require a hugely different playstyle. Just accept that sometimes you have easy matches, sometimes not so much. Variety is a good thing, and so is having a challenge every once in a while.
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Not everything has to have an exact and opposite equal to maintain balance in the game. Everything plays off of each other and everything effects everything else in an intertwined web of mechanics, regardless if there's an exact counterpart.
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@FoggyDownpour said:
Not everything has to have an exact and opposite equal to maintain balance in the game. Everything plays off of each other and everything effects everything else in an intertwined web of mechanics, regardless if there's an exact counterpart.Your right.
Moris and BNPs used to be the counterpart to each other.
But this did not work out and got balanced.
Now BNPs are weaker than Moris, because that's how stuff works in an ASYMETRICAL game.0 -
@aarongai Look when a killer bring a mori he/she has to hook them one time and then find them again ( if they go out) and they may kill them ( if he can ). The thing is when you think the killer has a mori just play safer and you may be good. It's you fail if the killer finds you in the first place and then again after the hook so either learns how to adapt in the game ( like every good killer after every update) or just go with the other side ( if you can't win join them).
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You are crazy
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