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NOED Rework Idea
Thoughts?
Comments
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That's fair, Good one.
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That would be something i'd love for sure. But why did you diminish the speed bonus to 3%? I'd keep the 4%. But, otherwise, great idea!
Post edited by Faulds on1 -
I'm not sure I'm on board for an uncounterable version of NOED. Doesn't that make everyone's problems with it much worse?
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I prefer the current version.
- It teaches Survivors about totem spawn locations.
- It slows down the game cause Survivors may want to do the dull totems.
- It being a Hex perk is sufficient over a cool down.
- The perk is strong but a gamble on Survivors not being able to work together and do totems.
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No. This is much more healthy version of it. No longer "noob" Killer with 1K camping everyone on their first hook will get his 3K-4K thanks to this change. No longer basement bubba will get his 3-4K. No more "oh my match was bad, time to for sick free comeback" thing.
Instead now it would be deserved. It is not easy to go and hook every single person in the match, since that is not very good way to win. It takes a lot of time. Also it forces people to not camp and not to tunnel if they want to use this perk later on the match.
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The problem with this version is that it rewards poor Killers. It rewards for basement bubba, camping killers, etc. It just feels cheap.
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The thing is, those things basically don't happen outside of the Basement Bubba managing to get a 2K with NOED. If you actually want to get consistent value out of NOED, and not rely on getting lucky with lemming survivors playing into you, you already need to at least get a hook on everyone- ideally, you want someone dead, even. All this change actually achieves is that survivors can do nothing to prevent NOED, changing it from the most counterable perk in the game to completely uncounterable.
Trying to make killers 'earn' NOED is either going to make the perk useless (as opposed to what it is right now, which is already weak) or make it dramatically worse, because killers not 'earning' NOED isn't actually a problem right now.
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- There is nothing wrong with having perks that do something for poor killers.
- Its not cheap, you play without a perk slot for the entire game until it maybe activates.
- Its not cheap, Survivors can prevent it.
- Because a specific strategy can exploit it is not good enough reason to change a perk.
- There is already things in development to deal with face camping.
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At the bottom of the picture, it says active for 120 seconds though.
People that defend current version of NOED don't understand that, and aren't even trying. I'd advise you to not bother too much arguing... it is a lost cause; i've tried it. Until BHVR decide to change it, it won't go through.
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Yes, exactly. It is completely uncounterable, your only choice is to leave or try and stealth through the duration, and running away isn't a counter. Compare to the current NOED, which can be both prevented from ever activating through direct survivor action and cleansed if it does activate.
Making NOED uncounterable would be okay if its effect were different, but this is the normal NOED effect with 1% shaved off the speed and a mori mechanic added in. That's way too much to not have a counter.
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You'd have plenty of counterplay actually. Making sure that all survivors aren't hooked once before the fifth gen pops gives good counterplay and info to survivors... unlike current noed. And that is only one thing.
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The fifth gen popping is what powers the exit gates, you read that correctly. A timer that long still isn't counterable, the only thing you can do is either leave or run away. Current NOED is counterable; you can cleanse the lit totem, or if you're particularly industrious, cleanse all five dull totems. This version wouldn't be.
I'm also not sure where the info comes in? Where would this version give more info than current NOED?
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"Just do bones" doesn't work with random team. You can try to defend this as long as you want but I have enough experience since 99% of the time I play solo anyway.
Example: Bubba hooks someone, facecamps. If they don't have Kindred, they don't realise he started camping and they need to face check the hook themselfs, wasting XX seconds worth of gen progress.
Even with Kindred, 3 other Survivors have on avarage less than 2 full minutes to do 3 gens and then probably 1 more unless the first down took a while for the killer.
So how the hell are you going to finish all the remaining gens (3-4, unlucky sometimes all 5), then on top of that looking for ALL the totems (some maps have hard spots) with just 3-2 people?
You don't.
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You really don't see how this new form gives more info to a team of survivor? Really? If the killer didn't hook everyone once, there is no possibility for noed. None. You won't get backstabbed out of the blue.
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You're right! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that trying to do bones as a solo player is actively making NOED harder to deal with if you can't guarantee that you'll get all five.
Better is the other counter to NOED; take note of where all the dulls are, and go check them if NOED is in play. You do not have to cleanse all five totems, that is not the only counter to NOED.
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I guess I could see that, that's technically a little bit of info.
I feel like killers usually get at least one hook on everyone before the endgame, though? Either way, giving the survivors a little bit more info isn't really the point, the point is that an uncounterable version of NOED is obviously worse than the very, very counterable version we have now.
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While I like perks that reward trying to go for unique survivors, perks that require hooking all four for any effect are a very bad design. Look at Grim Embrace, how many times have you seen it run (outside of Adept Artist attempts)? I can guarantee you can count on one hand the number of times you’ve seen it. Terrible reward for strenuous effort. Sometimes you just have that one immersed survivor, who you never come across while going for others and patrolling gens. This is why BBQ and No Way Out are good design: they encourage going for all survivors without demanding it.
So as much as I hate NOED in its current form and want change, this isn’t it.
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That is not just a bit of info. That is also reliable counterplay for solo q survivors. They can coordinate easily on that task with skill. What is not the case for current noed.
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...I just can't agree with that statement. I don't see how coordinating to deny the killer hook states is easier and more reliable counterplay than cleansing a single lit totem.
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There are some good ideas. The kill by your own hands is an interesting one. But it's a Hex. So there shouldn't be a requirement. Just a different way to how it activates maybe? I don't have other ideas so the gates being powered is the activation. It could use an update like some other perks.
Maybe some ideas:
-Survivor who cleanses the Hex is exposed for 60 sec.?
-that hook state idea from OP is interesting
-Boon totems are negated when activated?
-survivors are exposed when exit gates are touched? [Forcing the killer to synergise with another perk]
I can't think of other ideas. But I really like the Mori idea.
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But it is. One survivor can decide to stealth a bit before the fifth gen pops. You can try your harder after the fifth gen pops to make the chase the longer possible so he can't camp and guarantee a kill because of the timer. That is more of a reliable counterplay than cleansing totems in solo q. If the killer wants to camp and secure a kill, if he doesn't take risks... then survivors would know to not do also. On every end killers would have to be active to get the most value from their perk instead of being passive. I've decided to stop using noed until its changed because of that. I don't only have an experience on the receiving end about that matter. And from both sides, that is stupid.
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The problem with Grim Embrace isn't the really the requirement but the reward. The duration should be at least 60 seconds for it to be worth it.
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About grim embrace... i've actually loved using it. It is not that bad.
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I disagree, it really is both. I would highly doubt anyone telling me they are able to always secure all four BBQ stacks every single one of their killer matches.
Also, what happens when you block all gens? The survivors will just wait it out, hide, heal, search chests, etc. What have you really gained? You can’t damage or regress those blocked gens either. Awful perk, in my opinion. But let’s not detract from this post, which is about NOED.
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But it wouldn't be stealthing "a bit", it'd be stealthing for effectively the whole match to potentially deny value from a perk the killer might not even have. That's honestly not much less of an ask than cleansing dull totems- and if you're the first person found, chased, and hooked, there is no coordinating to stop your teammates from getting hooked if you're in SoloQ, that simply isn't happening.
Killers also can't passively benefit from NOED right now, that isn't a thing. Even if they're camping the first down they get, the totem can be cleansed and the risk for saving eliminated. With this idea, too, there'd be no need to camp; just make sure you get them to second stage and then mori them after they're saved, because their DS can't hit you that way. It is on all levels and in every regard infinitely less counterable than current NOED.
I want to make it clear that I'm trying to reach you on your level here. If you think NOED is a problem now, with the counterplay that it currently has, then taking that counterplay away for a materially stronger effect is worse.
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I also agree, I don't think the topic author's changes are ideal for NOED and for the same reason (where you have to reach the goal of hooking all 4 survivors at least once), unless killer gain a token and keep increasing the time that noed is activated by each hook.
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Current NOED is stupid, it is about luck... and it is putting all the work on the survivors shoulders. Gaining tokens require skills. Getting a hex lit doesn't. Making sure that not all survivors are hooked once before the fifth gen pops is more doable than coordinating solo q survivors about cleansing a hex. Cause yourself can work towards it on your own, and you have clear info about the state of the situation.
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How? You can cleanse one totem on your own, you have very little input over whether your teammates get hooked in solo queue.
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NOED isn't about cleasing one totem.
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Yes it is? It only lights up one totem when it activates.
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Cleansing noed isn't like cleansing your usual hex. It is harder.
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I really like that it has to be earned through hooking all 4 survivors once. I think it should stay a hex though and receive something else in return to make up for that (something less valuable than exposed), so it’d reward the killer more than it does now if they do earn it, but less if they don’t, while still doing something less impactful as it is still a totem and can still potentially not activate.
For example (and this is just an idea, this could be something else entirely), gain a token every time you hook a unique survivor up until the perk activates, upon activation gain 2-3% movement speed bonus and each token up to 3 reduces exit opening speed by 9%, and survivors are exposed at 4 tokens.
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That is a full regression from the point the devs spent many hours getting the perk to its at now.
NOED's original effect used to be just giving a speed boost and it also used to not be a hex perk. After a lot of iterations they finally made it a hex perk that gives exposed because that actually gave the perk a meaningful effect on the game.
Stop trying to change this perk, it's fine. Players need to learn to do totems which isn't even hard to do as countering totems is like the 3 most supported mechanic in the game. You have counterforce, small game, detective's hunch, maps, and boons to work with yet people would rather try and change a perk that is just decent at best to be objectively worse than just play the game and use the tools you have been given.
I don't even use the perk anymore, but these threads straight up make me angry because I'm playing the same game as the rest of y'all under the same conditions, but can not understand why it seems people will not use the tools available to solve an issue that the devs put in specifically to address said issue.
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You don't know how angry it makes to always see people that doesn't understand how stupid of a perk it is. You all have no idea how BS it is. Getting stupid comebacks with low inputs isn't healthy for the game... and i'm not only talking from a survivor point of view: i'm talking as a killer who actually made stupid comebacks in some games. It feels filthy to win like this... cause its not up to your own skill.
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There's a misspell and also i don't like the timer,god idea but the time is kind of short doesn't anybody think? (10 seconds is normal mori time)
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It feels filthy to you, but the great thing is as a killer you can make a conscious decision not to use it and as a survivor you can outright prevent it from ever being an issue. It does not matter whether you feel someone had low input or lacked skilled because at the end of the day your actions or rather inaction to cleanse is what harmed you. You took a risk and lost, that doesn't mean the perk needs to change. It means you as a player need to learn how to hedge your bets. It's far easier to cleanse totem than at any other point in the history of this game.
Take that into consideration for a moment, there was time when finding totems as a survivor was next to impossible unless you ran small game which was not as good as it now or a map which burned super fast. What does NOED have to shield it? Undying if by some insane miracle it survivors until endgame which is a virtual impossibility.
People always telling killers their not entitled to kills and that is...correct. Killers aren't entitled to anything, but survivors aren't entitled to constantly campaign for the removal of a threat at a game design level when you can stop it using the tools at your disposal. Your feelings of moral impropriety don't factor in at all. If there were a legitimate problem with NOED other than it being a beginner's trap, I'd probably be more inclined to agree probably. Yet, it isn't there isn't any real problem with the perk just people feels about the perk. It has counterplay, it does nothing more than what its designed to do, doesn't provide an advantage that is greater than its risk and considering how the perk hasn't been touched in literal years the stats probably aren't supporting the narrative that this perk is problematic.
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You can deny the truth all you want the truth is the truth. Truth exist whether you know it or not. Stop being delusional. This perk isn't balanced and healthy for the game.
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Yikes, this guy haven't played in low to mid mmr soloq survivor, they're playing like bats they need echolocation to find hexes, they'll only see it when its on an extremely bad spot, you'll never see soloq players find totems in good places cause they have no clue about it.
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you haven't see low to mid mmr gameplay have you, Wraiths always get a 4k with Noed, no sweat needed, its practically ez baby mode.
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If your teammates are that bad, are they really going to be able to coordinate with one another to deny the killer first-hook states? That is a way bigger ask than cleansing one totem.
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They don't but i can lol, just because they suck doesn't mean i suck we go back to low and mid mmr at some point but NOED keeps us there far longer than necessary,
its practically a free win for the killer if you can't beat 3 objectives at once Avoid the Killer, Cleanse NOED, Open the gates, It's not that easy.
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NOED can be countered by cleansing all totems in game or cleansing the lit up one when gates are open.
That is not that mega strong.
Good team run searching the totem the moment one gets downed and NOED pops up.
And a lot of normal players know it maybe there but choose by their own to ignore totems during the match.
The excuse "no time to cleanse" doens´t count anymore as there is enough time to boon - multiple times.
This is a nice perk - in reality highly unreliable - to punish survs for their own ignorance.
And to remember - the game is not over when the fifth gen pops.
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