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You can't trust the player base to police itself
There is one question from the recent survey that raises some concerns.
The idea that you could be matched based on player feedback in addition to MMR.
Basically anytime you do anything in game someone takes it personally and calls it toxic.
Even if you aren't doing what they accuse you of, there are a lot of go to accusations designed to make themselves feel better about losing that have no real basis outside of bruised egos.
I dislike obnoxious play as much as the next person but if you make match making based on post game reports/props then you open up the system to abuse by sore losers and vindictive children.
This community lacks the emotional maturity to police itself don't make it part of match making.
Comments
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To clarify for this guy because I don't think he gets it.
Questions on the recent survey alluded to post game props/reports being linked to future match making.
This really won't work as people have pre-defined expectations about how others should play and get so angry when they don't get what they want, that the system is rife for abuse by sore losers.
As a hypothetical every killer will just have a constant down vote because every second game someone accuses you of tunneling or camping for no reason other than they lost and are angry about it.
Rewarding people post game for being a good sport and getting props I can understand, but if post game props factor into MMR its a poor design because this community can't be honest with itself about game outcome and gameplay.
A results based MMR alone is still a better match maker over a subjective assessment of fun.
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verb: police; 3rd person present: polices; past tense: policed; past participle: policed; gerund or present participle: policing
Enforce regulations or an agreement in (a particular area or domain).
Different from
plural noun: police
The civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order.
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You are correct in your assumption. People are ... strange.
This system would most likely fail completely.
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It was such an odd series of questions those ones about toxicity. The solutions proposed where insane.
They proposed pre set chat responses or stickers.
"you get a smiley face and you get a smiley face but you sir, you get a frowny rain cloud"
Then they proposed the idea that props/reports could influence match making
So the community isn't mature enough to handle a post game chat but is mature enough to self regulate the behaviour of others impacting their future matches?... Its a dichotomy in of itself to suggest these fixes together.
Are they using the company dart board for decision making over there again?
Yes there is a ######### ton of toxicity in this game. There are mechanisms to reduce its impact though, you can close post game chat you don't have to delete it for everyone just have the option to close it... done.
The chat censorship needs a black list of offensive words and common methods used to circumvent the censor. Not what appears to be some crazed AI that ends up censoring half the human language, even some of the character names.
You need a robust report system that actually reviews legitimate complaints about repeat offenders and takes action on them. Not some half arsed let MMR just match people who get props and those who don't together proposal.
Because as I said this community is full of sore losers who will abuse that system, just as the current report system gets abused, how often does someone say they reported you after a game when all you did was eliminate them or blind them a few times. Fortunately the report system doesn't seem to do anything unless you can provide video evidence, proof of residency, mothers maiden name, blood type and six references that have known you for at least 5 years.
The thing that prevents abuse of the report system shouldn't be the ineptitude of the report system itself. It doesn't seem like its doing a very good job at curbing the things its meant to curb.
I realise it was just a survey not some update roadmap but still... what was proposed was comical.
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Oh yes sure because people would never ever give you negative rep because you won even if you where the most polite killer ever and followed the survivors rule book strictly
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Make a toxicity value. When players accrue these points, they lose BP and give the points to those who are negatively effected by this choice. Victims receive a small bonus at the end of the match, and the 'toxic points' go into a little bank that MMR takes into account when matchmaking the player.
-100 BP for every 10 seconds the killer stands within 8 meters of the hook after being within that radius for 15 seconds total. (CAMPER)
-100 BP for every time the killer hits a hooked survivor past 2. (KABAB)
-100 BP for Hitting a survivor within 15 seconds of them being unhooked. (TUNNEL VISION)
-Hooking a survivor within 15 seconds of their unhook is -500 BP score. (BLIND FOCUS)
-100 BP for every 15 consecutive seconds a survivor lays bleeding on the ground. (GRIEFER)
-100 BP per second in chase if the killer hits a survivor working on a generator while in chase with you. (RAT)
-100 BP for each second lingering in an exit area or next to a hatch after 5 seconds while being the only survivor remaining in the match (HOSTAGE)
-100 BP for each second T-bagging in an exit area while the killer is within 16 meters. (TAUNTING)
-250 BP for a toxicity report. (DISPLEASURE)
-1,000 BP if a survivor dies within 5 seconds of you unhooking them if the killer is within 8 meters. (BOMBING RUN)
-1,000 BP if an allied survivor is hit within 8 meters and 5 seconds of pointing or opening an occupied locker (TATTLE)
-1,000 BP if player disconnects within 60 seconds of their first chase (COWARD)
-1,000 BP if the killer disconnects within the first 120 seconds of the match (WASTED)
If they walk away from the lobby, the BP are deducted from their account, unless they already have none.
The MMR system looks at the negative points accrued by this score and creates a Toxicity value that is biased in matchmaking. Meaning toxic survivors (Hook bombing, leading killers to teammates, taunting, and Disconnecting early) and toxic killers (Face-camping, tunneling, slugging, disconnecting after a moment making everyone re-que) will suffer longer cue times, and will often get a taste of their own toxic medicine with who they get matched with - both survivor and killer.
Every day, this value is reduced by 1,000 + (100/day of not accruing>1,000 points), but is paused every day it is accrued. So if a survivor has a bad night, Hook bombs their friend, sells out another, and taunts at the exit gate - they can rack up -5,000 points pretty easily. It would take 6 days of not being toxic (or not playing at all) to reset this value to 0.
Many people may have a little toxicity on their accounts. A little taunting, or selling out a bad teammate THAT ONE TIME, but it will regress so long as you don't continue to accrue too many.
This way - people who refuse to stop camping and grieving will quickly outpace their scores. Several toxic sessions back-to-back can riddle them with thousands and thousands of toxicity points. They get to play in the special Toxic hell of MMR that puts high value toxic players with high value toxic players regardless of rank.
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Reputation\karma system should not interfere with the match making system. But it can exist, why not, it is fun to read comments about yourself. I remember a couple of profiles on steam swarming with hate in the comment section. Marvelous. :)
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Its a thought but a lot of what you describe as toxic is only subjectively so.
Sadly it can't play a role in MMR or any real impact on your opponent as much of what gets called toxic really isn't. It can be obnoxious but that doesn't make it inherently toxic.
Without a clearly defined idea of what's toxic people will keep reporting others purely because they are unhappy, and a lot of that unhapiness stems from loss, or worse a pre-conceived idea of how someone should play the game.
Unfortunately its vindictive sore losers that are usually calling each other toxic and they will be abusing the system. Objective outcome based MMR is the only thing that works everything else is marred by emotion.
You could definitely reward people with a rep systrem for props, but yeah it has no place dictating MMR or punitively stripping BP's/shard from people.
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Okay, so you have said that the following things are NOT toxic:
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Killer tunneling, killer face-camping, killer kebabbing, Killer 4 slugging, Killer disconnecting after the first couple of chases.
Survivor leading chase to unsuspecting allies, survivor hook bombs, survivors that hostage the game to taunt, survivor assisting the killer, survivor disconnecting after first chase.
Players that accrue several complaints over a long period of time.
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You are saying that these things are NOT toxic.
To be clear.
You do NOT think that the ABOVE things qualify as TOXIC behavior?
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Camping, tunneling and slugging are sometimes viable strategies against SWF using comms. They don't always work anyway if the team is good.
You deem it toxic trying to kill people as a killer?
Yeah against soloq it can be unfair if your team is rubbish. It's not the killers fault either if your team is rubbish or didn't bring BT or DS.
I yawn at these words!
I understand there are exceptions when a killer can do one hit downs all the time around a hook. They should fix that.
Even then just do gens and get out.
Doesn't make a fun game but then neither does a comm squad for killer.
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I still think the whole tunneling thing gets pushed to hard. If you get tunneld right from the hook then it either a camping problem or a bad unhook from your mate. If i get the notification and come to the hook and you guys sit under the hook for sure I go for the injured one why should I go for the healthy one that needs two hits and give you time to heal up? Do you guys do that with gens to? Do you walk past a 80% done gen and say nahh?
All the other things are toxic I'm totally with you but I think people come up with tunneling way tu quick when it's just the smart thing to say hey I see two guys but I kno if I catch nea she's out of the game
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Tell me you don't play killer without telling me you don't play killer.
Also.
Tell me you don't have profound reading comprehension without - why am I even bothering, you're clearly not reading this right now.
You're making an overt generalization to 'win' on a specific example. Why am I wasting my time.
Tunneling is all about the instance.
First off - if it's been a hot 5 seconds, you're not tunneling off of hook.
If you're forgoing injuring teammates and bulldozing to get to the unhooked survivor - yeah, you're tunneling. And, honestly, the game should probably slap you across the wrist.
If your prime example of apex killer gameplay is placing a survivor on a hook within 30 seconds of their ally unhooking them, that's not just pitiful, it's reckless.
Also - if you're making the judgement call to chainsaw someone to the ground as they are pulled off hook and put them back on there, BT and DS be damned... then you should probably be willing to eat the -600 BP fine. You're walking away with thousands, you can't take 600 off the top?
And that 600 won't be a big deal if you just DONT keep doing that all the time.
It's seldom that the person being unhooked is the greatest priority in the match bar none - especially with the perks in play with the meta where it is.
You try swinging for the unhooked survivor - you ready to eat BT, DH, DS, or another flashlight save? You realize that it's more efficient to kill momentum if you hit the unhooker, right? You're getting a health state without having to worry about the 3 most common perks working against you.
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My big problem is that survs demand I ignore the unhooked guy even when I just stumble over them while searching. Should I let them run past me
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The fact is I don't care for any made up rules.
I could make a bunch of rules for them but would they care?
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I feel you, but I also thought the question was purely addressing the "thumbs up" thing you can do after a match.
Like matchmaking could be a combination of both mmr and who has the most props.
I didn't get from it that people would be punished for having (often arbitrary) reports against them. It just seemed like a way to utilize the props system.
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If you're "searching" it's completely different than being faced - and ignoring - a body block situations within 10 seconds of an unhook.
Toxic survivors think that hitting them after 60 seconds off the hook, or if they touch an objective is in some, weird way, you're still 'tunneling'.
The only thing that matters is the first 10 seconds.
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That would be a lovely addition. Perhaps for every 'Props' you get +5,000 on your 'Toxic' score and enjoy the fruits of lower Que times and matches with other more positive people.
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Around Q 14-17, there were asking about curbing toxicity.
One set of suggestions were about removing endgame chat, stickers etc
Then next was about rewarding post game props good sports with bonuses
Then check boxes about if post game props should be included in match making with MMR or just MMR alone.
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That's a very cherry picked list from your first one.
Your original list includes things that frankly aren't toxic. Tunneling, camping, even if the killer hits you on hook are just parts of the game, not toxic. Bleeding out isn't toxic either its just a game mechanic, if you are down you may not get picked up and may bleed out. There is a threshold to the obnoxiousness of it but is it really toxicity no.
There is a lot of obnoxious gameplay sure but really it can't hurt you.
Don't want to waste time waiting for the EGC then chase survivors out who cares if they are BM'ing you chase em out move on. It can't hurt you nor should it because it doesn't matter its only a game.
240 seconds of bleed out timer its obnoxious but there is a timer you won't have to lie there till you DC because again there is a timer, that's why its there. Is it obnoxious to utilize the whole timer? sure but that's why there is a timer to prevent it being a toxic hostage scenario.
Rage quitting, post game abuse, griefing as defined by the TOS, collaborating with the killer and cheating. That's your toxic list. Flashlight macros could be construed as such due to potential to induce sensory effects on people who may suffer from them i.e. epilepsy, sensory induced migraine and seizures, I'd like to see something done mechanically about it.
I don't enjoy a lot of obnoxious play myself but just because I don't like it or do it, doesn't make it inherently toxic. Thinking you have the right to dictate how others play is a pretty toxic mindset to have though because it induces people to be vindictive and abuse others over how they play a game.
The term toxic is so misused by this community that it basically means "anything that I don't like must be toxic." Which frankly is bullshit.
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I think that was the intent of it but how often do you think folks give props to people if they lost?
Its a bit too subjective and easy to manipulate with respect to match making.
I mean if you play with people you like you can add them to your friends list, maybe a system to requeue with your current group if you have a good one, those make sense. Maybe even a rematch button where killer and survivors can vote to match up again, vote no to opt out and go to a random draw.
Trying to match opponents based on props though its too marred by what people consider a good game or good sportsmanship.
I like a scary match against a brutal killer as survivor, its why I don't get tilted by more intense killer play because its what makes the game fun, its survival horror after all. I want to flee from a scary killer who's out to get me, not waste their time running around the same rock while my buddies complete the objective.
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Valik, this response here is a very good example of the kind of mindset I'm talking about regarding how the game should be played.
You've made a bunch of assumptions about how this person plays based on what to me seems like a pretty reasonable assessment of what you were saying. While they did take a lil dig at the idea of complaining about camping and tunneling "I yawn at these word" its not really directed at you personally, but your reply indicates you kinda took it as such. You come back with a bunch of assumptions about them as a gamer and then go for a personal attack over answering their point.
Now its an online forum its all fair game, I take the piss plenty out of people too but can you see how its quite relevant to this topic. You appear to take a lot of personal offense to things you don't like in game and if you want to do that its up to you. But you can't expect to impose your version of fun on someone else and call anything else toxic as a result.
This rigid set of made up rules of gameplay is what leads to a lot of misuse of the report system. Taking this subjective view of things and applying it to match making isn't a great idea.
I'd say keep MMR a results based and reward people for props with bonus BP's or shards. Maybe larger bonuses if opponents give each other props. Its kind of like a reverse party streamers. Post game lets give everyone a bit extra with props because it was a good game.
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Yeah I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just hearing it over and over.
You get blamed for it when they heal right in front of you. lol
They never blame themselves only you no matter if they played crap.
Even the best streamers do it when they need to.
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Yeah man I wasn't implying you offend anyone, I completely agree.
Its the go to tantrum accusation, what's toxic about camping and tunneling, isn't the camping and tunneling its the gross overreaction to it.
You couple that with people who feel justified in being unpleasant purely because of their overreaction to it and that's true toxicity.
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I mean - you're kinda doing the exact thing you're accusing me of. You're using a very narrow lens to frame the argument and change the definition of 'toxic' to fit a very narrow and - frankly - impractical if not absolutely amorphous property to the game.
You're basically rewriting the definition of toxic to mean 'Bannable offense' or 'quantifiably harmful' in some way. Which may be understandable if you offered some form of clarity. But you're using a completely subjective system to qualify 'toxic' in order to prove that I, myself, am using a completely subjective system to qualify 'toxic' behavior.
And, at this point, you're not even contending that what I said are in any way negative aspects of the game but are, instead, core aspects of the game. That killers kitting hooked survivors is not a mean spirited and discouraging thing, but some form of sanctioned and commonplace practice that is expected of all killers.
You're not saying that the definition of toxic is changing, you're rewriting what's good and bad based on your own moral rubric.
And the fact that you're trying to say that purely negative, self defeating, and community-wide shunned actions are in some way not any of these things, but are positive.
This in and of itself speaks more against your point than I ever could.
It's a forum. But if you wanted to educate or discuss something instead of trying to defend negative player behavior, this conversation would have turned out a lot different.
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No I'm not assuming anything about you, if you look at what I've wirtten, and I implore you to do so, I've only said they way you've written your reply comes off like you are taking this a lil personally. You did resort to personal attacks about reading comprehension when I'd say that post comprehended what you said pretty well it just didn't agree with you.
I haven't made assumptions about how you play the game or what roles you play, personally I don't really care or see how its relevant but again it was your first point to dig at a reply that didn't agree with you.
You can't get your nose bent out of shape if someone says hey that seems like you are taking it a lil personally when you resort to personal attacks as part of your reply.
I never said my version of what's toxic isn't subjective, but I'm not going to label someone else toxic just because they played in a way I might not think is fun because as I said just because you don't have fun doesn't make something inherently toxic.
Behaviours that are frowned upon and banned by the TOS are defined by the TOS, they are your go to book on what's toxic and bannable.
If you disagree you are welcome to say that and why, but I'm afraid camping, tunneling, BM'ing, selfish play such as running past your team mate in the hope they get chased and you don't, making a bad hook save is not toxic its just gameplay.
It may not be very good gameplay, but sometimes it may be the exact play to make. Bad gameplay isn't inherently vindictive its just bad.
To go back to my original point "subjective opinions about what is good gameplay shouldn't factor into match making via post game assessment because they are too subjective to be reliable and you can't trust th eplayer base to be reliable".
You admit that your definition of whats toxic is just as subjective as my definition of what toxic, so I'm guessing we'll have to agree on the point I'm making that its too subjective to be used over MMR. (to be clear I'm not making an assumption here I'm making a guess based on what you've written).
I also still think you take this stuff too seriously if you define all you've listed as toxic afterall its only a game, true toxicity can be harmful, most of what's listed is just annoying moreso if you take the game too seriously.
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