Why are Nurse and Blight so common yet Spirit isn’t?
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just out of curiosity how exactly do you know that you're playing at high mmr and you're not just not as good as you think you are? like dont take this as a dig im genuinely curious as to how you know for sure
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Tbh the Directional audio was good with the audio knowing if she was really phasing or not, but what wasn't needed was the distance audio knowing if she is getting close to you while phasing, it like tying a bell around a cats neck and expect it to catch mice.
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Yeah you might be right about that, I never really considered it too much since I only notice it getting louder when I'm about to go down anyway (like when I'm in the open for instance)
The chase music usually obscures it for me 🤔
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Pretty much the way you beat a Spirit is to queue up as Survivor and play with some common sense while also eating chips and watching YouTube.
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Remove survivor's keyboards.
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Yea I noticed when I played against her that I'm working on a Gen and hear her phase get louder, I get off the Gen and slow walk away and hide and boom she appears a few seconds later. Same when I play as her players auto react when they hear it and run off.
Spirit was the Queen of Jumpscares and I loved it now I'm lucky to get a potato not paying attention and I scare him off a Gen.
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Hee Blight fast
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"Nurse and Blight" and "ease of use" do not fit together
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It was so flat that it dematerialized the moment it was poked.
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That might help but we'd need to remove controller, too. Also, endgame chat which this thread strangely resembles.
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Blueberry's entire post is saying that survivor's counter-play towards spirit is related to manipulating sound. You use sound to manipulate your location so that spirit has to make guesses on you as opposed to the survivor making guesses on Spirit. In some sense, he is somewhat arguing that loudness of the survivor has little impact on survivor's being able to extend chase against spirit.
The perks that affect tracking such as Iron will+Lucky break are unfair for spirit. They make the chase survivor-sided against spirit. They largely destroy what her gameplay is about. That is my guess for why spirit vanished after Stridor changes.
"Also again the information survivors have is limited, you hear which direction she is moving but not exactly where she is. It's still very possible to use it mid chase."
The survivor's information towards phase walk is not limited. It is in fact perfect. There is zero uncertainty in spirit's position in phasewalk. Survivor's gameplay towards current spirit is perfectly reactionary. The bottom line is that she is no longer invisible at all. The reason why they did not add dust is because it was not required.
As Blueberry says, The speed is all she has now. If she did not have speed, She would be among worst killers in the entire game. The speed is not worth it because she moves at 110% and her pallet/tileset play is awful against strong players. So yes, She was gutted, like most killers that face negative changes.
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After you've played the game for over 8k hours you have an understanding of what good players are in order to gauge mmr levels. It's just an experience thing.
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so in other words it's literally just "source: just trust me bro"
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With old spirit you physically couldn't "manipulate sound" against her because while injured you emit constant loud sound cues that give away your position. People adapted to this by running Iron Will since it's the only perk that does anything about it consistantly (There are other perks, but they're conditional). You could also crouch which sometimes worked against non stridor spirits but it was very inconsistant from my experience as most killers know survivors don't just disappear
So Spirits ran Stridor to counter Iron Will which was being used to counter her.
And so people who didn't run Iron will were double screwed because not only were their grunts of pain still audible but it was even louder than before making "manipulating your sound" twice as hard, maybe even impossible depending on the circumstances.
Personally the better argument to make about old spirit isn't "just manipulate sound" it would be "just never be injured". Easier said than done vs old spirit tho.
I'm in the camp that she def needed changes. Whether the changes she got are "too much" is completely subjective. If the only thing that made her good was forcing survivors to guess then to me she was never a well designed killer to begin with. Thankfully, that's not all she was about.
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That gave me a chuckle lol.
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I get your humor, but "just trust me bro" is someone with more hours in the game than more than 99% of the population. You can downplay it as conjecture but that level of experience isn't irrelevant by any means.
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you'll have to forgive me but years of studying RS and having a final on religious experience has taught me that emperical evidence is the only thing you can trust to build a solid argument on, and any non-emperical evidence you just kinda have to take with several thousand grains of salt. so, no offence, without any actual hard numbers i can see it'll remain a "source? just trust me bro" until the numbers appear, at which point i will gladly believe you.
also, i was quoting a meme lmao
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Playing a game a lot doesn't make you an expert on balance though tbh
Get where you're coming from tho, I have a lot of hours too. Way too many.
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Blight and Nurse take less effort and the player gets much better results. That's it.
To make Spirit on par with Nurse and Blight the player needs to be really cracked and have the best headphones.
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Cause people heard Spirit was nerfed, and assumed it meant she’s terrible now. She’s still a plenty strong killer, and still 3rd strongest. Just weaker than before but also healthier, since survivors know when she’s actually using her power and the general direction. The changes brought her closer to the level of amazing design of Nurse/Blight. Still strong, new very nice add-ons, but also gives sufficient information and even chance for the survivor to mindgame back.
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I don't even play Nurse nor Blight that much.... LOL
I spend my time playing Pig, Huntress, Hillbilly and Twins
(Bad Word) I hardly play Hag anymore
Or I don't even play the game anymore (I lost Xbox Gold) so there's that
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I seen more blight and Nurse before her nerf too, so I haven't noticed a difference.
Overrated Killer, got nerfed, simple as that. Well at least I never had an issue with a Spirit, and as someone who plays spirit when I faced one that outplayed me, I would say it was a well balanced chase.
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i know it's based on a meme.
I never said it was a solid argument, but with experience does come wisdom. I get your point though. Also to be fair, I presented many rational points prior to "just trust me bro" that went no where to improving understanding.
It's like trying to point out why swimming with great whites is a bad idea using multiple rational points. They may be good points, but if the person has never actually swam with great whites then those points may not make any sense. You can see my analogy.
I also wouldn't go as far as to say it's an argument from authority as in that case even the person without authority can argue the points logically. In this case if high mmr wasn't experienced for example, then the points won't make any sense to them. Meaning you have to have literally experience the points to understand them. Apples an oranges to say. DBD makes this a little different of a scenario.
It's like saying you won't be able to read the "empirical data" without being able to read english, with english being the high mmr experience. I get this falls back into some "just trust me bro" but it's just a fact. It's why for example trying to explain the games balance problems at high mmr to a newer player doesn't make any sense to them since they haven't experienced it.
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I mean just to be clear, in case you're talking about me here
I completely understand everything you've said
I just don't agree with you.
And that's okay, I think.
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Yeah we can agree to disagree that's fine. That's basically where this Spirit conversation has gone the last 100 times I've had it on here over the years. The conversations on the forums tend to repeat a lot.
I guess I just end up thinking it must be an MMR level thing because all the things I've said here today aren't really disagreed upon by any of the comp or high mmr players i play with regularly. This is pretty unanimously agreed upon. The only time I ever see push back is on the forums where the average forums goer is a much more casual player.
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It's not that I think you're completely wrong or anything like that, against really strong teams and the like I'm sure the audio cue does a lot more harm than it would a typical team. You have your own experiences which I respect of course
Personally I try to look at these things from a broader perspective and I factor in my experiences into that a lot. I don't know my MMR or anything like that but I know I play against people who have thousands of hours, which like you said - people with thousands of hours might not necessarily be super good but there's a certain wisdom to it.
Neither of us play against clueless baby survivors/baby killers (hopefully) is my point.
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"against really strong teams and the like I'm sure the audio cue does a lot more harm than it would a typical team"
This might also be a point causing our disagreement as well. Most people base their opinions on average DBD matches. Everything I'm saying is based on assuming top/really good survivors vs top/really good killers. I don't base any of my thoughts on average matches because to me average matches, while being average, are not objective in terms of measuring balance because it assumes the sides are making lots of mistakes and we determine objective balance by assuming by sides are using the tools they've been given to the best of their ability. IE I think the game should be balanced from the top down, instead of what we have now which is bottom up.
Might be one the things causing our difference of opinions since we may have different end objective points.
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Spirit is meh for me or i'm just bad with her i dislike nurse to but i get why people play her on the other hand blight is very fun to play i'm not in love with him like you are with spirit but him and oni are my favorite killers
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Exactly yeah
I think regardless of our opinions on balance, we both know fundementally the game's balance is really flawed and only two(ish) killers can actually handle the game when it is pushed to that 'high level' as you put it. I can see why somebody like yourself who prefers a more top-down approach would see it as a complete gutting compared to somebody like myself who sees it as a healthy change overall
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Yeah that explains the disagreement then, I agree with all that. Good talk lol.
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Likewise!
Thank you for your time
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I am uncertain for what aspect of spirit's power is unfair in your first paragraph. Are you trying argue that your suppose to be untouchable in deadzone(a area of the map where no pallets/windows exist) to outplay the spirit? The killer counter-play is not suppose to be consistent. If the counter-play is 100% full proof, than ironically, the killer has no counter-play to the survivor's actions.
Spirits ran Stridor to neutralize effects of Iron will.
Survivor that did not run Iron will were unaffected by Stridor because they were already emitting sound without Stridor being used. In your version, Your believing that the spirit having any sound whatsoever is auto-win for the spirit. In that case, The spirit is still unfair for you and that changes did nothing. You never learned to play against Spirit in first place.
From my conclusion, Killer gameplay is not suppose to be reactionary. The gameplay is suppose to be mindgame based i.e prediction based and unpredictable. A big reason why a lot of the killers are weak at the chase is because a lot of pallets in the game either god pallets or safe pallets. The survivor can slide on reaction towards killer gameplay. Just look at a map like Gideon Meat Packing Plant with so many safe pallets.
Spirit's power changed the gameplay dynamic for survivor to be unpredictable. Now with audio cues, dominating spirit is trivial. Spirit is largely overrated killer now. Its why no one plays her anymore besides spirit-lovers like @TheGannMan
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My whole post was a response to "just manipulate sound".
Also survivors who had no iron will were affected by Stridor, it made them even easier to hear, it made doing the little crouch technique worthless.
And no, I don't consider spirit unfair anymore - because I actually have something to work with. They have a sound cue (Me being injured) and I have a sound cue (Phasing). Whoever wins, wins.
Post edited by Brokenbones on1 -
Simple answer you won’t like: she’s weak and at the mercy of survivors.
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You forgot to mention that you know exactly WHERE Spirit is when she is phasing you can see it (dust) and hear it around you. Meanwhile, if you are healthy, she has no idea where you are, and if you are injured with iron will, she still has no idea.
I am more of a survivor main these days, but let’s be honest and cut the cr*p : she is weak.
If I want speed I will play Blight, I don’t need a killer with a power that makes me blind and deaf while giving them a ton of info.
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You do realize they didn’t implement the dust right?
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I didn't forget to mention it, my issue with spirit and what I'm glad was addressed was the problem with survivors having no information on the Spirit while she had almost perfect info on a survivor who was injured - turning it into a guessing game for the survivor. It still was a guessing game for a healthy survivor but while healthy you could be cheeky and get away with things like walking
Also you don't see dust, that was gonna be a thing but they removed it. Which is good because that would've been too far imo
You're entitled to your opinion on her being weak, I can see why you might hold that opinion even if I don't agree
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Because spirit is #########, she's slow, hair sticks out above loops oh and did I say she gets looped?
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Alright my bad, there is no dust but you can still see grass moving right ? That’s what I meant by visual info.
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They might've removed that too, you used to be able to hear her footsteps as well
Most notably on swamp maps/indoor maps
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Because she's really bad now Gann. Against good survivors they just camp pallets and know the exact side you're coming from. On top of this she has a hugely punishing cooldown which allows them plenty of time to run to another safe loop or pallet. She's only somewhat good at unsafe loops but most of these other killers are good or even better at. She's a solid B tier killer now.
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How would you buff Spirit, any ideas?
Personally I can't think of anything, aside from maybe an Iron Will nerf? Not sure how much that would help Spirit alone as opposed to helping the rest of the roster
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I play her all the time and do well with her even against good survivors. I know she’s good because of my experience. If you don’t play her, your input won’t be that valid. Not trying to be mean when I say it but it’s true.
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I wouldn’t buff. I don’t really think she needs that much else. I’d rather just leave her alone so she doesn’t become “OP” again or actually devastating to play.
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Maybe it's not 'Spirit is weak' but rather 'Current survivors are too strong' (Very contentious though ngl)
Issue is, how do you rectify it? We're getting the COH nerf next patch and the Dead hard change (eventually), what then?
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Use Teacup if pallet camping is too much for you.
She's easy "S" tier.
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I do play her she's still in my top 5 most played and I've played her since release. When a survivor is camping a pallet there is nothing you can do from there. They know exactly where you are, exactly how close you are, exactly where you're coming from. It doesn't matter what you do they can throw it down and easily play around it because you're left with no information while they have all of it.
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If a killer needs an iridescent to be S tier then Huntress is 'easy S tier' as well.
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She's "S" tier base kit. (With good perks I mean)
I'm talking to you about using teacup.
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Kick the pallet and then phase after them. You gotta stop acting like you should be able to mind game every single pallet that easily.
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