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Remove MMR
MMR makes every match a pain, everyone is salty and every match is the same thing, same perks and same strategies, it makes everything boring
Comments
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Or...we could...not?
The SBMM system is a million times better than ranks. I started under ranks, and it was miserable as a newbie.
If the SBMM system is making things sweaty at high MMR, then it's working. Because if high MMR isn't sweaty, someone new is getting stomped.
People have always been salty in postgame.
Yes, high MMR in most games tends to have an ossified meta. That's the nature of high MMR play. People optimize.
Now, I'm not saying the system is perfect. But from where I'm standing, it's certainly better. And we're going to see some MMR tweaks soon, which hopefully improves it futher.
The system isn't designed to give you easy games, it's designed to pair you up against someone with roughly the same level of skill. Which means that you'll need to fight for the win.
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I get it. I absolutely body newbies when I play either role. I escape a lot and I kill a lot. I get it. I do, really, but hear me out.
I'm trying to finish my rift challenges and I do not need a legacy nurse giving me an impromptu colonoscopy every time I try to close a glyph.
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Oi use your brain for 1 sec and think hmmmmm MAYBE we could just have random matchmaking OR go back to ranks BUT have the ability to turn off swfs
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Um what?
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I want the chaos and insanity back. More importantly, I want the fun back. MMR does not work in this game since if you pick the a mediocre killer and don't bring meta perks and you go to a poor map, you just lose at high MMR. Period. Like your skill is functionally irrelevant. Kind of like playing against a good Nurse or old Deathslinger; doesn't matter if you're good or not, you're getting hit and going down.
M1 killers like Wraith are pretty much unplayable against good survivors. If they drop every pallet as soon as they get to it, chasing them will lose you the game. If you're doing sneaky hit and runs, but they have CoH or four medkits, you lose the game. If they're doing both, well, you lose.
This game just falls apart when everyone is playing sweaty. Since winning matches pits you against sweatier and sweatier players, you have to adapt and play like them or you have to accept that you're going on a losing streak until you can have fun again. MMR would be fine if this game was fun at high level, but it simply isn't.
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No thanks.
Ranks was essentially random matchmaking and it was awful.
SWFs are annoying and I wish the matchmaker would account for them, but your suggestion would make it impossible for SWFs to get games.
Why?
'Chaos and Insanity' generally means 'new players get rolled over and over again'.
MMR does work in the situation you are describing, just maybe not how you think. If you're playing at a high MMR on those killers, the system thinks that you have a roughly 50% chance of killing each survivor there on that killer. Whatever MMR bracket this is will likely be higher on your Nurse main than your Pig alt - but the challenge should be roughly equivalent.
I agree that the 'C' and 'D' tier killers need a buff, but that's a different discussion.
The CoH nerf and Hem buff should help against the healing meta somewhat.
And yes, if you keep winning, the system will pair you up against stronger opponents until you hit the '50%' sweet spot. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.
The SBMM system has problems - but it sounds like BHVR are well on their way to fixing them (just at their usual glacial pace). Even factoring in those problems, the game has felt far more even since the switch over from ranks.
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New players get matched against experience killers and viceversa sbmm or not so this excuse doesn't make any sense, some people like you wants a challenge every game and i get it but majority of the playerbase doesn't want it and as result is leaving the game
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Sure, they do - sometimes (mostly due to lobby dodges, which is being fixed). But usually not.
It's not just me wanting a challenge.
It's me realizing that if I'm having an easy game, the other side are having an impossible one. And that's going to make people just stop playing.
Show me where the majority of the playerbase doesn't want MMR?
The game is experiencing a fall-off, but is that because of MMR, or because the game has simply peaked? Correlation does not equal causation.
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Forgive me for my poor formatting, I'm not so good with internet forums since I don't use them often.
- "'Chaos and Insanity' generally means 'new players get rolled over and over again'."
I'm referring to things like going up against a four man Head-On squad, four up the ante + salty lips, or playing against PWYF speed limiter Bubba. Gimmicky meme builds and playstyles that are played for laughs, and more importantly for fun. You just don't see stuff like that anymore bc we're playing a game of "play sweaty, play boring, or get stomped."
- "MMR does work in the situation you are describing, just maybe not how you think. If you're playing at a high MMR on those killers, the system thinks that you have a roughly 50% chance of killing each survivor there on that killer. Whatever MMR bracket this is will likely be higher on your Nurse main than your Pig alt - but the challenge should be roughly equivalent."
Games like Rainbow Six Siege have their cake and it too; at bronze, silver, and gold ranks, you'll play against a lot of casual memelords and have a wonderful time. At plat and higher, you'll play against sweat squads. The issue with DbD is that the MMR system is terrible, and only works in theory. I'm not getting a 50% win rate with DbD's MMR, I'm getting a 100% win rate for ten games in a row then a 100% loss rate for ten games in a row.
If I could be something like a hardstuck gold in DbD, I wouldn't be complaining. However, I keep getting pushed up to play against the equivalent of plat and diamond players in DbD. I'm not that good at this game, far from it. If MMR was working even remotely properly, I wouldn't be playing against players with 4k+ hours when I'm mostly just zoned out when I play. Again, if MMR worked and I was only playing against other casual players that just want to chill, I would have nothing to complain about.
- The SBMM system has problems - but it sounds like BHVR are well on their way to fixing them (just at their usual glacial pace). Even factoring in those problems, the game has felt far more even since the switch over from ranks.
I really have no idea why anyone would think that matches feel more fair after MMR got added. Pretty much everyone and their mother was saying "stomp or get stomped" for the first few months, and nothing has changed. It's two or three games against baby survivors that don't even drop pallets or vault windows, then two or three games of metaslave sweat squads. Fair in the eyes of an utterly broken algorithm, but absolutely not fair in the eyes of a human.
But yeah, adding MMR to a game about as balanced as a Jenga Tower was a horrible idea.
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i dont want easy games, I jus want to have fun
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I, along with many, many others, agree. MMR just simply makes the game unfun, there's really no other way to put it. Now, I'm not saying the old ranking system was good, but it was at least better than this.
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Hah, neither am I. Hence the block quote.
- I still see 4man HO squads. I'm also the one generally running the silly meme builds. If you want to play chill, play chill and your MMR will adjust.
- Yes, a 50% win rate means on average, you'll 'win'. Sometimes this is a 4k. Sometimes this is a 0k. Generally it's not a 2k, because DbD is a very snowbally game. If you're facing high MMR players, either the system pooped itself or you're good enough to face high MMR players. If it's the former, that should be fixed soon. If it's the latter - you playing against lower MMR players isn't fair to them, is it?
- Were they? I made my first posts on the forums a bit after I started playing on Steam, and you can go back and check those out for the examples of games I got to enjoy as a newbie under rank matchmaking. Just endless 4man teams of deranked SWFs.
This game is more balanced than it's ever been. When I started, maybe 2 years ago, there was basically 1 build for killer and survivors still had multiple spots on every map where you couldn't pick them up.
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It's not winning or losing I'm all that concerned with. The issue I have is how rapidly and erratically MMR fluctuates. It's one game against people with sub ten hours, then a game with people that have 4k+ hours. It's a 50% win rate, but not bc there are lots fair matches where both teams have roughly equal chances of winning. So things are going from unfair and unfun for them, then being unfair and unfun for me.
I also have lots of killers that I don't really play anymore bc they're in MMR hell. Like I've gotten a 0k the past like 10 times I've played Doc, and I'm still only playing against ultra sweats. It's not the idea of MMR that I dislike, it's the fact that it doesn't work in it's current state. I also seriously don't have faith in BHVR to implement something functional, given their track record. At this point, they should just hire an external company to make a matchmaking system for them.
Yeah, I experienced that too. It was even worse as survivor, since getting out of brown ranks was a matter of escaping "face camp hell." Not saying the entirety of the old system was good, I just personally enjoyed playing at red ranks back in the day more than I enjoy playing in MMR now.
Indeed, it's more balanced than it was. The first time I played was back in 2017 when there were still infinites and no EGC, so survivors could literally hold the game hostage if they just decide to never leave. Needless to say, I barely played it and picked it back up again in 2019
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SBMM is kilometers better than RBMM
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It really wasn't.
The only people RBMM helped out were veteran players looking to skunk newbies.
If your MMR is volatile, it generally means that either the system is breaking down (prime-time tends to be nuts, probably due to more players = more lobby dodges = cascading breakdowns of the SBMM system) or that you are either too high or too low in MMR and the system is trying to find the right spot for you.
If you're literally seeing people with 10 hours and then 4k hours, it's probably a lobby dodge situation - and that should be fixed soonish.
Not sure what's happening with your Doctor - I haven't seen anything like what you're describing outside of the tail-end of the MMR testing.
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But if RBMM was so much worse, why is almost everyone complaining about MMR and asking for the devs to revert it? In fact, you're one of the very few people I've met actually defending it.
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Is that you Dowsey?
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Because, as you can see from recent 'hours' threads, the forums are incredibly overrepresented by veteran players.
It's understandable why the veterans would prefer RBMM, because it put them up against an on average weaker pool of players, making games 'less sweaty' - for them, at least.
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Nice, first game in the universe balancing a MM around low skill noobs.
Go ask for an auto headshot on Valorant for newbie...
If you are a newbie, you learn it the hard way, that's called life.
The game is so balanced around newbie survivors that it is impossible for the high MMR killers to play against high MMR survivor as everything is OP for them.
Just try this : first chase, pre-drop all the pallets you find and use some windows. Of course use DH :). 3 to 4 gens are done against pretty much all killers. Try it 100 times, remove the trials against a Nurse and tell me how many trials you had 3+ escapes. It will be near 90%.
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I'm split on this because I like my teammates more now. If we go back it will be too random like before.
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Sigh. And here we find another false dichotomy.
The entire idea of an MMR system is that it's balanced around everyone. New players will ideally face other new players, veterans will face other veterans. Getting destroyed as a newbie by a veteran isn't much fun, and frankly - I don't enjoy the converse either. I started out as killer (am only now beginning to learn survivor) and it sucked being unable to catch people because I simply didn't understand how to run the tiles and didn't have all the perks I needed and it sucks now if I get paired up against newbies, because a game without a challenge isn't great..
You don't really learn much being endlessly chimped by veteran players. All that happens is that people get frustrated and quit. You need scaffolding to learn stuff, and that means playing at your level.
This is why most games with matchmaking have some sort of MMR system. It's not being balanced around any specific group of players, it's being balanced around fairness - as so far as that's possible in a game like DbD. In a balanced match, the killer has an approximately 50% chance of killing each survivor.
Yes, this game has some balance issues at higher MMRs...but that's something that can be worked on.
I'm definitely still learning survivor, and it...doesn't work like that unless you're playing against a Pig or a Myers on The Game or something. A smart killer will bait out the god pallets or go and pressure elsewhere.
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Balance doesn't come from a matchmaking.
When both sides do not play with the same weapons and when one side is highly favored, your matchmaking will never work.
At high level, without any restriction, killers cannot win beside Nurse/Spirit and Artist. Unless if you camp but if you want the game to be a camp fest, well it already is, then have good fun.
And unfortunately they won't be able to balance the game for everyone, one side will always be favored depending the MMR level.
Balance the game to have 50/50 at high level for all killers and at lower level survivors will be totally annihilated. Balance the game to have 50/50 at a low MMR and at high MMR killers will be annihilated.
Devs have to do a choice. Most games are balanced around high level of play. A noob doesn't know how to play the game, why should we balance a game around someone that doesn't know how to play ?
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But people are complaining about it everywhere, not just here. Also, if those said veteran players aren't having fun, don't you think the system is failing them? Just because they put a lot of hours in the game doesn't mean they should have to sweat every single match; and that goes for both sides.
I'm sorry, but SBMM is simply flawed. For one, putting a competitive match making system in a heavily RNG based game like DbD (that doesn't even have a defined win condition) is not a good idea. SBMM looks strictly at kills and escapes to calculate your "skill level", which is incredibly unfair for reasons I shouldn't even have to explain.
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Actually no, most games are balanced around both high and low levels of play. And yes, this is difficult to achieve - but if you don't, you either have veterans jumping ship or a game that becomes incredibly niche and eventually dies out.
SC2 for instance introduced a lot of changes to help lower APM players get a handle on things.
Yes, generally veterans complaining to other veterans. And where it's not, I think those veterans have succeeded in creating a pretty powerful confirmation bias, where every loss gets blamed on SBMM. People tend to have rose-tinted goggles when it comes to gaming. That said, Otz and co. have gradually come around on SBMM and most of their current complaints are about the number of hackers they are running into - which is a very different discussion.
Sure - the game is tougher now for veterans. But if they aren't sweating, then some new players are getting wrecked. And to keep a game from basically fading away, you do need to help newer players out too. Veterans should be facing other veterans, that's the long and short of it. Throwing them new players to stomp won't keep them happy for long.
Regarding the actual system - it has flaws, and most of those should be fixed in the midpatch from what we know.
Kills for killer...I'm okay with that.
Survivor MMR is complicated. It should be more nuanced than escapes, but that gets very complicated if you want to avoid it becoming unnaturally inflated.
Yes, SBMM is flawed. A lot of those flaws should be corrected soonish. But 'perfect' is always the enemy of 'better', and SBMM is definitely better than ranks were. I started out under ranks and it was horrible.
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At least you acknowledge that it's flawed. Personally though, I still think RBMM was leagues better than SBMM.
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Here's my experience of my first...maybe 200 hours of DbD under ranks.
1/3 of my games were okay.
1/3 of my games were against people deranking, often in SWFs. Deranking was so quick and easy under ranks that even Fog Whisperers admitted to doing it for 'easier games'. That's indicative of people still finding games too 'sweaty' at top ranks - SBMM didn't cause this problem, it just makes cheating the system to smurf a lot harder and less precise.
1/3 of my games were against people of a straight up higher rank - entire teams of purples and reds with full meta perks and OoO, because for a lot of RBMM, killers had zero matchmaking protections.
It was miserable. Ranks didn't make things less miserable as a whole for most people, it just let them easily drop down to Ash to roll newbies for easier wins.
Under SBMM, maybe 3/5 of my games are pretty decent. 1/5 are against people too experienced for me, 1/5 are against people not experienced enough. Again, 'better' doesn't mean 'perfect' - but it's still better.
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I understand the complaints about the win conditions for mmr. What I don’t get is the “games too sweaty” complaint. This is just my opinion but if your winning all of your games, why on earth should you go up against significantly weaker opponents
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Because a lot of people like to feel powerful. They have a certain amount of self esteem tied up in winning, and don't deal well with the possibility of losing. Combine it with how snowbally this game is and yeah - it's a frustrating game to lose at, which is further exacerbated by how nasty people (particularly survivors from my experience) can be in victory. It's the same reason people hack and smurf - nobody likes to lose, especially when they get gloated at.
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Yeah I agree with that. I remember one thread about how the new mmr was great. Why did the person say it was great? Because he was winning all of his games as killer. And I had my teacher lecture us about this philosophers theory. One of his theory’s is that we tend to remember the bad moments more than the good ones. That sounds very familiar to people playing this game. When people are winning in this game, you won’t hear a complaint and the world is perfect. When they are losing its Armageddon. That goes for both sides
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I don't know why but all 6+ games i have had tonight have been a sweat fest?
Using different killers all the same type of games. Either very good solo's or SWF.
I even 3k one game and didn't enjoy it.
DH & COH are really annoying me too much now.
Could you make it any easier for them?
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Above why I think the MMR should stay and be improved.
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SBMM is so much better that everyone leaves the sinking ship.
SBMM is hell for above average killers. And well, survivors are then camped and tunneled and it's hell for at least 1 and sometimes 2 survivors at above average MMR.
The game is totally unbalanced, there are too many loops, too many strong places, too many lockers, too many pallets. Do you know that you can pre-drop all pallets and you will hold most killers long enough for 3 to 4 gens to pop ?
Most games at high rating last less than 10 minutes. A killer can't do anything in 6 to 10 minutes.
For new players they can make them play on a "newbie" queue for the 2 first devotion level.
Actually, today the amount of killers camping/tunneling or instantly coming back on saves is outstanding, things that existed before but were not so predominant. Now it is every game, sweat fest after sweat fest, for both sides. Nothing is enjoyable. The game has become a frustration provider.
First game in my life that do this, and i have played competitively in important tournaments.
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Everyone is talking about MMR like it's a Yes or No thing
As if all SBMM is doomed to be an imbalanced and miserable failure and the only cure is chaos.
Why don't we ask Behavior to create a healthy SBMM system that gives us what we want as players instead of asking them to remove it altogether?
Maybe instead of having to choose between Chaos and a broken system, we can work with them to try to make a better system in the future?
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