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Not so unpopular opinion - mmr isnt the issue, dead hard is
If i have to be honest, mmr is a thing i despise in this game
But thinking about it, what prevents me to win against high skilled survivors ? The 30-45 seconds extended chases due to dead hard
Good survivors use it so well that it basically give them a 3rd hit for free
I'd lile bhvr to disable dead hard for a few days to see what game looks like
Comments
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A good way to put the power of Dead Hard into perspective is this:
Make note of when you swing at a Survivor that 100% would have gone down if they did not Dead Hard.
NOW, start a timer. Use Alexa, have a clock next to you, or count out loud or in your head. See how many seconds it takes before that Survivor goes down again.
Got that number?
That is how much time Dead Hard bought the entire Survivor team that game.
Now do that again every single time Dead Hard is used in a match.
Absolutely no Killer perk in the game has that much power. None. Zero. It's asinine.
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DH is definitely a huge issue, especially when it's used for distance (which cant be baited or waited out like the iframes) but also hurts the already weaker basic attack killers.
SBMM is still a problem though, first of all it's not truly based of skill and second, probably the most important THE GAMES NOT BALANCED. Especially for the top level of play, every other game that has ranking isnt balanced for low level casuals
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DS wrecks your games? Dunno man, slugging is a thing too.
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DS is only an issue if you tunnel.
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Killer slug for 3 reasons :
- multiple down scenario where one goes down and another survivor is near
- ds prevention cos the survivor made sure to go down right after unhook
-toxicity
And ds is pretty huge even after nerf
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Great, but your first and third point are irrelevant to this?
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As is your intervention on a post related to dead hard and mmr
Just answering to your misplaced comment about sluging
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I responded to another comment mentioning DS. I presented slugging as a solution to DS. That is all.
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IDk, I never complained about it until I played legion for hours and they dead harded so many of my frenzies, simply outplayed. :(( I would've got fifth one so many times. back 2 being looped as an m1 killer.
-Killer win rate would probably go higher if it was disabled
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last gen pops,
survivor team has 4X BT, 4X DH, 4X DS.
Didn't tunnel and got 8 hooks spread evenly on survivors(aka everyone is on death hook)
have one survivor on hook, It is impossible for you to secure the kill or down another survivor unless 1. they're bad. 2. You're playing an instant down killer.
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You can slug and wait for the timer to run out.
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You can extend this to any killer
Nurse > dead hard on succesful tp
Blight > dead hard on succesful rush
Ph > dead hard on sucessful read
Etc
M1 sur suffer more of it tho. The perk is ridiculously strong against them and make chase unfun
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At which point the survivor will crawl to the exit gate and escape that way. There are maybe a handful of maps/scenarios where the survivor can't get to an exit gate in ~60 seconds or will recover fully and the remaining 3 survivors will dive bomb the slug to pick up + body block + throw out their own DHs meaning you arent going to down any of them.
second chance perks at end-game are not fair to killers who play "fair".
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So, I am not a fan of survivor B's either (and I play survivor on solo queue at least as much as I do killer - no SWFs though). Dead hard is a pain in the butt for sure, but honestly I don't know that I would rate it or DS as my number one problem in killer games. Most of my issues come from being marched against teams who clearly have a lot more map knowledge/mechanic exploit knowedge than I do. The survivors that aren't as good still have DH but they usually don't use it very well.
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I truly think that if you take dead hard from survivors, games will be less stressful and frustrating
The main problem as killer is the time you are given and that you starts with a huge disadvantage. Shortening chases would balance thing so the 1st hook doesnt come at the same time as th 1st 2 gens
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No killer perk has that much power?
What about... an addon that lets you immediately kill healthy survivors that haven't even been hooked yet.
Before you start arguing that "yeah it only works if it's used by a skilled Myers", same thing can be said about Dead Hard. I've seen too many team mates dead hard into walls and getting immediately downed.
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What about how killers can run 4 automatic gen perks? Literally, no input required and you still get tons of artificial time injected into the game.
Killers have perks that extend gen times, survivors have perks that extend their life times. What is the issue here?
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If Tombstone Meyers were the most powerful killer build it would be one of the most popular ones but it barely gets any use compared to Blight or Nurse or even Huntress, etc, Not that you can’t win with Tombstone but the downside of how long it takes to charge it up shouldn’t be underestimated, it definitely hurts him.
Dead Hard is the most popular survivor perk. It also seems to be strongly correlated with escape rates based on a large data set posted a couple months ago by a forum user and the devs mentioning they weren’t happy with its stats. So I seriously doubt Tombstone is actually as effective overall as Dead Hard.
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Killers just love complaining at the forums when they can't get kills, instead of finding a good setup that works for their personal play style.
I've faced killers that have made the matches so hopeless that I've ended up just standing there.
Faced a doctor who stacked up gen regression perks and brought an offering to The Game. After he got his first down, the game was over. Generators automatically exploded. He did his AoE shock in the middle of the map which reached everywhere. This forced everyone off the generators, which were then blocked by the entity while regressing automatically. Don't know exactly what perk combination he used but it bought him more time than Dead Hard times 5
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Tombstone is a pink addon, thus cannot be used every game. But you can't deny that it skips a good portion of the match for the killer, it takes +200% time to stalk but then you only have to catch everyone once. It lets you win the game in 4 successful chases instead of 12.
Have you considered that one reason why high win rate + dead hard is seen together because both requires a high skill level from survivors?
Skillful survivors already have a high chance of escaping, and due to Dead Hard being such a skill-dependent perk, it will be seen more on high-skill survivors.
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I feel your pain on the doc match, yesterday I had a doctor using the dead man switch build on the game map the game was well over 30 minutes in the end I went to find him as it was a painful match. I then moved to the next match, I normally like to play out a match as I solo anways but not one where its hard to get a gen done with the shock spamming and the build he was running.
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If you’re talking about the Red Add-on Meyers that allows multiple kills in a single use Meyers only moves 105% speed while doing it. That’s a huge downside on top of the additional charge time at the start of the match and it’s a big reason why Meyers players seem to prefer the Purple Tombstone over the Red one.
And like I said, neither is even all that popular compared to all the other killers, and not just because they’re purple and red add-ons. Being a red-add on has never been a huge problem at high levels of play, just look at how popular Iridescent Head Huntress used to be back when that perk allowed her to have multiple hatchets for example.
Also yes, I am considering that there is a correlation between player time or skill and Dead Hard use. However, when you pivot out escape rates by number of survivors using Dead Hard versus escape rates against number of survivors using other popular meta perks like, say, Borrowed Time, Dead Hard still has a much larger correlation with escape rates than even those other popular high end meta perks. Lots of high end players use Borrowed Time or Decisive Strike or Iron Will but none of those perks seem to have the same level of correlation with escapes that Dead Hard does.
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Yeah it's not strange pink tombstone myers isn't popular when there's so many easier builds to use. Pink tombstone requires a ton of skill to utilize properly so of course it won't be too popular. But boy when someone does use it... GG. Especially since the first survivor usually doesn't suspect it.
Obviously Borrowed Time wont affect a person's winrate. Dead Hard is a selfish perk to extend chases. Borrowed Time is a perk used on someone else that literally does nothing unless the killer is trying to tunnel them. Decisive Strike is also another perk that literally does nothing unless the killer is tunneling. Not to mention slugging is a thing even if the killer does decide to tunnel. I'd say decisive strike is a meta perk more because it's nice to counter these tunneling killers who try to prevent you from getting to even play the damn game, but when you're in those matches where the killer is tunneling you're probably gonna die anyways.
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But you’re missing my point - you were saying that Dead Hard is tied to high escape rates because high skill players use it. But high skill players also use other perks and those perks don’t have the same degree of ties to escape rates. If it were just that high skill players used Dead Hard being the only reason for the correlation then its impact on escapes would be more or less on par with those other meta perks. (And the ones that I saw tracked also included Iron Will, Unbreakable and Circle of Healing. I think Circle of Healing was strong with a single use but multiple people using it had diminishing returns.)
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The reason that is a false equivalency is that Myers has to throw the game by pissing away chase seconds staring at you. Dead Hard BUYS you time. Myers kills THROW TIME AWAY.
Also LOL at trying to compare a perk with no cost whatsoever to an add on with finite uses that costs thousands of blood points per pick.
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What is an "automatic gen perk"?
Are you trying to say Ruin? Which can be ignored by not letting go of a gen and ignoring it? Or even getting cleansed before it does anything?
Or do you mean Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance? Which is a flat 15% and all regressing can be avoided by.... taking your finger off the gen before the hook happens, and putting it back on?
Or did you mean Corrupt Intervention, which doesn't stop you from doing gens at all, it just blocks the furthest ones?
Or did you mean Pop Goes The Weasel? Which is a flat 25% and requires you to hook ever single time, putting a fine number of uses on it?
I'm not seeing any perk here that will consistently waist 3, 4, 5 or even more minutes of the game's time all by itself. Your team would have to be SO BAD for any of these to outperk Dead Hard, that it is no longer a perk issue.
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People use Dead Hard because they want to escape chases.
People use Borrowed Time to help other people not be tunneled.
People use Decisive Strike to prevent being tunneled themselves.
I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like Dead Hard is also used more by Try Hards who care more about "winning". Like, not everybody cares about escaping. I use both Borrowed and Decisive because I just care about having a fun match. I really don't care about dying, I already have every perk unlocked and I am maxed out on blood points. So I'll gladly die as long as the match itself was good.
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I am saying Deadlock. I am saying Pain Res. Dead Man's Switch. Ruin Undying. None of those really require any effort on the killers part beyond Ruin. Especially with certain builds where DMS can consistently be activated globally.
If you are going to sit here and tell me Corrupt is a bad perk and doesn't slow down the game, I honestly don't know what to say to that. It probably buys you the most time out of any killer slowdown perk bar Ruin staying up the whole game. It gives you the breathing room to get your first hook in a game that is heavily snowball reliant.
And then saying Pop is bad? "Finite number of uses" when it's a finite game. By the time you can't use pop anymore it's because people are dead and gens don't matter anymore.
And saying Ruin can't buy you minutes of extra gen time? What? You must be trolling?
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Not bothered about DH, but the power a swf has is the big problem. Litterally tried every trick in the book last night and the swf twitch streamers just had an answer (perk) for everything I tried. I was even laughing at the end of the game it was that scripted.
I genuinely have more issue with flashlight bullies and BT then I do dead hard.
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"None of these really require any effort on the killer's part"
You literally just cited two perks that only activate on a hook. Jesus Christ, man.
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Yeah hooking survivors takes a lot of effort. It's not your primary objective as the killer or anything.
That's like saying a perk that requires survivors to do a gen to activate requires extra effort.
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It goes even deeper than that to be honest. An efficient survivor with DH can forgo healing, play less safe with map traversal, greed pallets for longer and ultimately just be protected. This is all added time to the Survivor pool before the E has even been pressed.
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What the hell did i just read
Dead hard is used to gain distance, not to dodge a hit. If you use it to dodge a hit you are doing it wrong.
Good survivors wont ever use it to dodge they will use it to leghten chases by reaching a window or a pallet they couldnt otherwise.
How is that a killer dream lmao
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A perk “being used to help others escape” still presumably increases escape rates for the group if it’s a good perk. A perk that “prevents tunneling” likewise increases the group’s escape rates if its working properly. The difference with Dead Hard and the other popular perks is the degree to which it increases escape rates is much greater.
Plus you’re focussing on Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike but they’re not the only perks I mentioned that stats were posted for. There was also Iron Will and Unbreakable which fall in the same category, they’re popular and useful but don’t have the same statistical correlation with escapes.
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DH isnt an issue, its the lazy try to get an excuse that survivors know how to use their perks well.
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The issue with your comparisons is that Dead Hard is the only one of those meta perks that is used primarily by skilled players.
Anyone can use the other perks with little-to-no-skill because they give good utility automatically. Dead Hard is the only one you need to be skilled at using, so lower-skill players may try it a few times but then decide it's not worth it.
do you see the difference?
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I love how all the Killer mains or tryhards literally complain about any meta perk. Not to be offensive or something but y'all are some crybabies. I don't think Killer mains realize that it's and exhaustion perk (40-50-60s cooldown) and can only be used when you're injured or in a period of time. Dead Hard could literally be worse than Lithe if u think about it. For example, you chase a survivor and u m1 him. He runs to a different loop where he has to use DH, and boom that's it. You just use your ability/mindgames nicely and you should get him in a matter of seconds.
Personally as a survivor main I don't see such a problem in Dead Hard. I have been playing killer lately. 4/10 matches I was playing against 4k hour survivor mains as Hillbilly. Of course it was stressful and all of them had "tHe MoSt Op MeTa PeRkS". But in the end I played good and got away with 3 kills on average, slugging to snowball and ignoring DH, BT, DS, UB.
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Any killer that plays at a decent mmr will tell you that DH is too strong
"I don't see the issue". Imagine a killer perk that could shut down a generator every 2 minutes, would it be fair ?
Its basically the kind of time dead hard offers to good players
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I understand what you're saying but I think you're overestimating how often people "try Dead Hard and abandon it" compared to other solid perks. Dead Hard isn't "just used by skilled players", it's the single most popular survivor perk, it's used by something like half of all survivors.
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Just for reference, since I figure you might be curious to see the actual numbers, I pulled the data from the 400 game sample a couple months ago and repivoted everything. Here's a breakdown. (I marked lines where there were only a few matches as such since they obviously have higher variance.) The perks are sorted by how often they were used.
Dead Hard
- 41% of survivors used Dead Hard
- Kill rate for matches with 0 Dead Hard: 76%
- Kill rate for matches with 1 Dead Hard: 76%
- Kill rate for matches with 2 Dead Hard: 67%
- Kill rate for matches with 3 Dead Hard: 59%
- Kill rate for matches with 4 Dead Hard: 44%
Borrowed Time
- 35% of survivors used Borrowed Time
- Kill rate with 0 Borrowed Time: 74%
- Kill rate with 1 Borrowed Time: 70%
- Kill rate with 2 Borrowed Time: 65%
- Kill rate with 3 Borrowed Time: 65%
- Kill rate with 4 Borrowed Time: 70%
Iron Will
- 22% of survivors used Iron Will
- Kill rate for matches with 0 Iron Wills: 70%
- Kill rate for matches with 1 Iron Will: 73%
- Kill rate for matches with 2 Iron Will: 60%
- Kill rate for matches with 3 Iron Will: 53%
- Kill rate for matches with 4 Iron Will: 57% (only 2 matches)
Decisive Strike
- 21% of survivors used Decisive Strike
- Kill rate with 0 Decisive Strike: 73%
- Kill rate with 1 Decisive Strike: 72%
- Kill rate with 2 Decisive Strikes: 54%
- Kill rate with 3 Decisive Strikes: 62%
- Kill rate with 4 Decisive Strikes: 75% (2 matches)
Circle of Healing (note: This was posted prior to the earlier nerfs)
- 14% of survivors used Circle of Healing
- Kill rate for matches with 0 Circle of Healing: 66%
- Kill rate for matches with 1 Circle of Healing: 75%
- Kill rate for matches with 2 Circle of Healing: 62%
- Kill rate for matches with 3 Circle of Healing: 82%
- (No matches with 4 Circles of Healing)
Unbreakable
- 10% of survivors used Unbreakable
- Kill rate for matches with 0 Unbreakable: 69%
- Kill rate for matches with 1 Unbreakable: 68%
- Kill rate for matches with 2 Unbreakable: 62%
- Kill rate for matches with 3 Unbreakable: 80% (only 4 matches)
- Kill rate for matches with 4 Unbreakable: 100% (only 1 match, it was a 4k)
Prove Thyself
- 9% of survivors used Prove Thyself
- Kill rate with 0 Prove Thyself: 68%
- Kill rate with 1 Prove Thyself: 71%
- Kill rate with 2 Prove Thyself: 73%
- Kill rate with 3 Prove Thyself: 27% (3 matches)
- Kill rate with 4 Prove Thyself: 25% (1 match)
Notes
- Dead Hard is the most popular perk tracked at 41% of survivors using it. Kill rates ranged widely between a 76% kill rate against groups that had no Dead Hard at all or only 1 Dead Hard user to 44% kill rate against groups where all four survivors used Dead Hard, with about a 10% or so drop per additional Dead Hard user after the first.
- Borrowed Time was the second most used perk (35% of survivors) but had no significant impact on escape rates. The most likely reason is the killer player tracking this probably just assumed rescuers had Borrowed Time during hook trades so never bothered hitting them in the first place.
- Iron Will was third most popular and its kill rate stats are probably the closest on the list to Dead Hard (70% kill rate against groups with no Iron Will down to 53% against groups that had 3 Iron Will users). It's not quite as wide a gap as Dead Hard but it's still pretty impressive. (And personally as a killer I think Iron Will is one of the best survivor perks in the game so I don't find this all that surprising.)
- Decisive Strike is next most popular and had a bit more of an effect than Borrowed Time did. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if the killer played around Decisive Strike whether or not someone had it which would reduce its impact slightly.
- Circle of Healing surprisingly had only marginal impact in this. I would have expected more of a shift between 0 users and 1 user, but they actually had a better kill rate against groups that had a single CoH survivor than groups that had none. It's possible that Circle of Healing either works best in coordinated swfs since they know about the Boon in advance without relying on the HUD, and/or that the Boon users were overusing it and replacing it over and over at the expense of doing gens without getting enough value out of heals for the group. (I personally have seen a few groups lose a game because they overly committed to placing CoH when they should have just done gens while wounded.)
- Unbreakable didn't seem to have as much impact as the other perks, and didn't have much data for groups where 3 or 4 survivors used it. Stats for it look ok but it's not coming across as being as effective as some of the other ones on the list
- Prove Thyself was the least used perk that the data tracked and it seems to have had pretty much no effect. The kill rates were pretty flat for the matches it was used by 0-2 survivors. (There wasn't much data to go by for 3-4 use matches.)
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My point is that no Killer perk can buy as much time as Dead Hard.
You tried to cite Corrupt Intervention, a perk that has a literal specific, finite duration. Not to mention the fact that Corrupt doesn't actually stop the objective. You still have 3 gens you can do.
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Hey just like any other perk pro tip: just learn how to counter it lol
The best way to avoid dead hard, is just never swing until you're right up on their back, it's pretty easy you just forget to counter it there are many videos on how to counter a lot of perks, but I just wouldn't get that upset about it. It's all a part of the fun of looping and predicting and though it can be frustrating you just gotta mature and focus on what you can, not get upset about the little things, and if all fails, just be friendly, I'm sure you'll end up with a game you can look back on and smile
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"Just bait it out"
Stop, everyone knows "baiting it out" doesn't work when it's used properly
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Not dead hard, meta perks in general.
And sadly the meta is stale and unfun. (That being said if every killer would start using sloppy/blood echo and thanatophobia, autodidact + empathy maybe, would be the meta. Isn't that crazy ?)
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...yes it does? i'm saying wait the hell out of dead hard let them spin you, still don't swing. best way to down someone easily, NEVER SWING but yes sorry if you don't believe me but uhh
BAIT DEAD HARD!!
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This is where you are wrong.
You're looking at it from the perspective of DH being used to dodge a hit, which is the wrong way to use it.
It's uncounterable when used against most Killers when it's used for distance
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still don't see why gaining distance is such a huge issue, just chase them?
personally, as a survivor I don't run dead hard I find it a bit disingenuine to get good with a perk that basically counts as a free 360 so I learn to 360 the right way. however, if you know how to use it well, I can for sure give those survivors props for a good dead hard, just like otz, killers will play relentlessly so will survivors in a strange way it's balanced
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"Just chase them"
Let me just waste ~90 seconds worth of Generator time just because of 1 Perk that can and usually is run by at least 3 Survivors per Trial
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The game in general has a finite duration? And corrupt does stop the objective. Survivors in this game literally spawn on gens, sometimes all 4 of them at once. That means your clock as killer is ticking x4 1-2 seconds into the match unless you have corrupt.
Corrupt, especially on certain maps, can buy you ~30+ seconds of gen time per survivor for them to even find a gen. 30 seconds is enough to get a down with many killers. From there, the survivors now have a side objective and only 2 will be on gens potentially even 1 if multiple people go for the save because it's solo Q. So corrupt has essentially stopped almost all generator progress completely by itself.
Also, if Ruin stays up all game it can buy you like 3-4 extra gens. That's why I feel like you are trolling because anyone who has played this game should know that. Especially on a killer like Pyramid Head where you go interrupt a 90% gen with Tinkerer and then send them off to a cage on the other side of the map. The gen usually goes all the way back to 0.
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Holy crap you keep saying objectively false things. I can understanding someone having a different OPINION, but not saying things blatantly untrue.
The game does NOT have a finite duration. At all. There is no time limit. I've seen 2 hour long hatch stand-offs. I've seen Survivors bodyblocked into corners for over 45 minutes until the Killer gave them no choice but to disconnect.
How can you possible say something as BLATANTLY untrue as "the game as a finite duration"?
Corrupt does not stop the Objective. There are 7 generators on the map. At BEST you force them to walk to different generators.
And your citation of 30 seconds is still way, WAY less time "bought" than some Dead Hard users can get.
Ruin is completely at the mercy of the totem being destroyed. It has loads of counterplay, which I already addressed in early posts.
My primary point stands and you have not refuted it:
NO KILLER PERK CAN WASTE AS MUCH GAME TIME AS DEAD HARD OVER THE COURSE OF AN ENTIRE MATCH.
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