Distortion is unreasonably too weak!

Entità · November 2018

The killer's power should basically match that of four efficient survivors, and so a killer perk should have four times the strength of the opposing perks of the survivors, meaning that all four survivors must equip a given perk to neutralize that of the killer.

If we analyze BBQ and Chili, we notice that it offers up to a maximum of 2 * 4 * 3 = 24 Aura readings (provided that each survivor is hooked twice before someone dies and, at each hook, the killer sees the Aura of the other three people), plus 3 other Aura-readings at the first survivor's sacrifice, 2 at the second survivor's sacrifice and 1 at the third survivor's sacrifice; total: 24 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 30 Aura-readings of the survivors, in optimal conditions, the best possible. Well, if all four survivors used Distortion, each would have 3 protections from the reading of their Auras, that is 3 * 4 = 12 shields, and 12 is equal to 2/5 of 30. As you know, BBQ can be countered by hiding in a locker, crouching behind an incomplete generator or approaching less than the minimum activation distance (in worst cases, 40 meters), or bypassed by simulating a direction and turning sharply after a few seconds. I chose BBQ because it is easy to calculate its maximum power, in ideal conditions, and compare it with that, absolutely inadequate, of Distortion.

However, there are dozens of Aura reading skills that cannot be prevented without Distortion, or that even destroy the Distortion tokens without the player having any possible defense. Some examples:
1) Freddy's dreamworld;
2) Bitter Murmur (you can't stop making gens!);
3) A Nurse's Calling with a stealthy killer;
4) Deerstalker (issue just fixed);
5) an avalanche of killer's add-ons.
Here you will find an exhaustive list: https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Auras

Evidently, Distortion is an absolutely weak, seriously insufficient perk. It would be very reasonable and balanced to buff Distortion in ONE of the following ways:
1) tokens are 4/5/6;
2) tokens can be recharged with some simple actions;
3) the survivor can decide, at their sole discretion, when to activate the shield of Distortion and when instead let the killer see their Aura to save tokens;
4) if the solutions 1), 2) and 3) are rejected, at least the three tokens must grant three effective protections, that is Distortion doesn't trigger in any of the following circumstances (aside when you are dying or trapped some way): a) the survivor is asleep or b) the survivor's Aura is outside the killer's field of view (for example, you heal yourself within 28 meters from a crouched Pig with A Nurse's Calling, but you are behind her, so you don't need Distortion to remain hidden).

As it is currently, Distortion is decidedly unfair, and not to be detected is the first and foremost target of every survivor. @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits Please, change it!

Blueberry · November 2018

Here's how we buff distortion and handle the locker aura reading change in one.

Bake the locker aura reading into the new Distortion survivor perk as a passive on it and if they use the locker to block an aura reading it won't consume one of their tokens. At least this would make it so it would cost them a perk slot if they really hated aura perks, abilities, etc. Now those 3 tokens will only be needed when you get caught out and weren't expecting it but you can reliably use the locker.

TheHourMan · November 2018

I would like to see survivors use lockers more often. This locker aura immunity is a nice step toward that. Afterall, it means more free locker grabs lol

G0odNess · November 2018

OMEGALOL

Crizpen · November 2018

@Entità said:
The killer's power should basically match that of four efficient survivors, and so a killer perk should have four times the strength of the opposing perks of the survivors, meaning that all four survivors must equip a given perk to neutralize that of the killer.

If we analyze BBQ and Chili, we notice that it offers up to a maximum of 2 * 4 * 3 = 24 Aura readings (provided that each survivor is hooked twice before someone dies and, at each hook, the killer sees the Aura of the other three people), plus 3 other Aura-readings at the first survivor's sacrifice, 2 at the second survivor's sacrifice and 1 at the third survivor's sacrifice; total: 24 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 30 Aura-readings of the survivors, in optimal conditions, the best possible. All this without considering, of course, A Nurse Calling, Iron Maiden (how many times are the lockers used in a game? And the reading of the Aura in such cases is added to the Exposed status...), Bitter Murmur, Rancor and some add-ons (like Wraith's All-Seing or Shape's Reflective Fragment, Glass Fragment, Mirror Shard, Vanity Mirror), and probably other things I'm forgetting right now.

Well, if all four survivors used Distortion, each would have 3 protections from the reading of their Auras, that is 3 * 4 = 12 shields, and 12 is equal to 2/5 of 30 (without considering the other Aura-reading abilities, listed above). Evidently, this is an absolutely weak, seriously insufficient perk. I do not claim that the initial tokens for any survivor using Distortion are 7.5 (7.5 * 4 = 30), since the killer rarely gets 30 Aura readings in a single game with BBQ, however I find it absolutely reasonable and balanced that Distortion is reworked in one of the following ways:
1) tokens are 4/5/6;
2) tokens can be recharged with some simple actions;
3) if solutions 1) and 2) are rejected, at least the survivor can decide, at their sole discretion, when to activate the shield of Distortion and when instead let the killer see their Aura to save tokens.

As it is currently, Distortion is decidedly unfair, and not to be detected is the first and foremost target of every survivor. @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits Please, fix it!

This is so utterly wrong, it's hard to know where to begin. At current, there are two ways to block BBQ - the most commonly run Killer perk - to rush within 40 yards, or to hide behind a generator's aura.

Adding Distortion, along with the locker changes, means a severe nerf to every killer except Legion and the Doctor: both of whom can quickly and effectively burn through the stacks.

So, a Trapper, for example, will need to find and hook 3 survivors, without the benefit of BBQ or Nurse's, before - maybe - they can hook someone who didn't rush within 40 meters, hide in a locker, or hide behind a generator. That's the vast majority of the match burned through by a single perk.

What is the Trapper to do? If he hooks a survivor and sees no aura readings, his best play is to start looking within 40 meters of - or "proxy camping" - the hook.

And you think adding more stacks will do something good for survivor game play? If you enjoy camping and tunneling, perhaps.

Entità · November 2018

@Crizpen I know how to counter BBQ: I made a comparison between the maximum power of the BBQ and the maximum power of four Distortion, in ideal conditions, and four Distortion are worth 2/5 of a BBQ: this is not a balance. We agree that the reality is different: the ideal consumption of a car, indicated in the instruction booklet, is almost always unattainable under normal driving conditions, but gives an idea of the average consumption of the car you are about to buy, do you understand the meaning of my comparison? In reality both BBQ and Distortion give worse results than expected, but this does not compensate for the initial imbalance.

Now, tell me something: in your opinion, is it different if the killer does not see anyone because of the distance, the lockers or the survivor hidden behind the gen or because of Distortion? The killer goes away from the hook in the first cases and magically becomes a camper and a tunneller in the second? And how do you know why people are invisible? Above all, the first strategies are for free, Distortion is a perk and you pay a slot to get it and it has to live up to expectations, and it's 1 perk among 59: not all survivors will run it, don't speak as if it were a passive protection given to everybody.

With the current system, Myers can destroy the perk by simply chasing you and stalking with the right add-ons, you are not master of your perk, it depends exclusively on the circumstances: what kind of protection does it offer? It needs more tokens or a charging system (like Stake Out) or, at least, the freedom of the survivor to activate it when he wants, instead of risking to see the tokens consumed when he does not care to hide. A weak and situational stealth perk would be the bad copy of Sole Survivor: look at it, nobody uses it... ask yourself WHY!

@Blueberry I have still to think about lockers reform.

Dabrownman1812 · November 2018

Entità said:

The killer's power should basically match that of four efficient survivors, and so a killer perk should have four times the strength of the opposing perks of the survivors, meaning that all four survivors must equip a given perk to neutralize that of the killer.

If we analyze BBQ and Chili, we notice that it offers up to a maximum of 2 * 4 * 3 = 24 Aura readings (provided that each survivor is hooked twice before someone dies and, at each hook, the killer sees the Aura of the other three people), plus 3 other Aura-readings at the first survivor's sacrifice, 2 at the second survivor's sacrifice and 1 at the third survivor's sacrifice; total: 24 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 30 Aura-readings of the survivors, in optimal conditions, the best possible. All this without considering, of course, A Nurse Calling, Iron Maiden (how many times are the lockers used in a game? And the reading of the Aura in such cases is added to the Exposed status...), Bitter Murmur, Rancor and some add-ons (like Wraith's All-Seing or Shape's Reflective Fragment, Glass Fragment, Mirror Shard, Vanity Mirror), and probably other things I'm forgetting right now.

Well, if all four survivors used Distortion, each would have 3 protections from the reading of their Auras, that is 3 * 4 = 12 shields, and 12 is equal to 2/5 of 30 (without considering the other Aura-reading abilities, listed above). Evidently, this is an absolutely weak, seriously insufficient perk. I do not claim that the initial tokens for any survivor using Distortion are 7.5 (7.5 * 4 = 30), since the killer rarely gets 30 Aura readings in a single game with BBQ, however I find it absolutely reasonable and balanced that Distortion is reworked in one of the following ways:
1) tokens are 4/5/6;
2) tokens can be recharged with some simple actions;
3) if solutions 1) and 2) are rejected, at least the survivor can decide, at their sole discretion, when to activate the shield of Distortion and when instead let the killer see their Aura to save tokens.

As it is currently, Distortion is decidedly unfair, and not to be detected is the first and foremost target of every survivor. @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits Please, fix it!

The point is it would be way too strong if you could choose, also if you have to choose then you don't know what perks they have cause that means you'll have to preemptively activate it. It's great because you can go into a locker when someone gets picked up to avoid losing a token. When you're healing you block nurses for some time automatically. Once your aura is revealed for even 1 second, you already gave the killer info. So yeh, it's good how it is.

Dabrownman1812 · November 2018

Entità said:

@Crizpen I know how to counter BBQ: I made a comparison between the maximum power of the BBQ and the maximum power of four Distortion, in ideal conditions, and four Distortion are worth 2/5 of a BBQ: this is not a balance. We agree that the reality is different: the ideal consumption of a car, indicated in the instruction booklet, is almost always unattainable under normal driving conditions, but gives an idea of the average consumption of the car you are about to buy, do you understand the meaning of my comparison? In reality both BBQ and Distortion give worse results than expected, but this does not compensate for the initial imbalance.

Now, tell me something: in your opinion, is it different if the killer does not see anyone because of the distance, the lockers or the survivor hidden behind the gen or because of Distortion? The killer goes away from the hook in the first cases and magically becomes a camper and a tunneller in the second? And how do you know why people are invisible? Above all, the first strategies are for free, Distortion is a perk and you pay a slot to get it and it has to live up to expectations, and it's 1 perk among 59: not all survivors will run it, don't speak as if it were a passive protection given to everybody.

With the current system, Myers can destroy the perk by simply chasing you and stalking with the right add-ons, you are not master of your perk, it depends exclusively on the circumstances: what kind of protection does it offer? It needs more tokens or a charging system (like Stake Out) or, at least, the freedom of the survivor to activate it when he wants, instead of risking to see the tokens consumed when he does not care to hide. A weak and situational stealth perk would be the bad copy of Sole Survivor: look at it, nobody uses it... ask yourself WHY!

@Blueberry I have still to think about lockers reform.

Ummm only jump scare meyers will do that mostly, which isn't common. Most meyers dont attach aura reading while stalk so yeh, not much mentioning. It also runs freddy through the ground as he has to leave the chase, leave survivor, and wait 10 seconds to see the survivor aura

friendlykillermain · November 2018

@Entità said:
The killer's power should basically match that of four efficient survivors, and so a killer perk should have four times the strength of the opposing perks of the survivors, meaning that all four survivors must equip a given perk to neutralize that of the killer.

If we analyze BBQ and Chili, we notice that it offers up to a maximum of 2 * 4 * 3 = 24 Aura readings (provided that each survivor is hooked twice before someone dies and, at each hook, the killer sees the Aura of the other three people), plus 3 other Aura-readings at the first survivor's sacrifice, 2 at the second survivor's sacrifice and 1 at the third survivor's sacrifice; total: 24 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 30 Aura-readings of the survivors, in optimal conditions, the best possible. All this without considering, of course, A Nurse Calling, Iron Maiden (how many times are the lockers used in a game? And the reading of the Aura in such cases is added to the Exposed status...), Bitter Murmur, Rancor and some add-ons (like Wraith's All-Seing or Shape's Reflective Fragment, Glass Fragment, Mirror Shard, Vanity Mirror), and probably other things I'm forgetting right now.

Well, if all four survivors used Distortion, each would have 3 protections from the reading of their Auras, that is 3 * 4 = 12 shields, and 12 is equal to 2/5 of 30 (without considering the other Aura-reading abilities, listed above). Evidently, this is an absolutely weak, seriously insufficient perk. I do not claim that the initial tokens for any survivor using Distortion are 7.5 (7.5 * 4 = 30), since the killer rarely gets 30 Aura readings in a single game with BBQ, however I find it absolutely reasonable and balanced that Distortion is reworked in one of the following ways:
1) tokens are 4/5/6;
2) tokens can be recharged with some simple actions;
3) if solutions 1) and 2) are rejected, at least the survivor can decide, at their sole discretion, when to activate the shield of Distortion and when instead let the killer see their Aura to save tokens.

As it is currently, Distortion is decidedly unfair, and not to be detected is the first and foremost target of every survivor. @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits Please, fix it!

NO its a bit too strong actually it needs a 180 second cooldown instead of token useage

Entità · November 2018

@Dabrownman1812 said:
The point is it would be way too strong if you could choose, also if you have to choose then you don't know what perks they have cause that means you'll have to preemptively activate it. It's great because you can go into a locker when someone gets picked up to avoid losing a token. When you're healing you block nurses for some time automatically. Once your aura is revealed for even 1 second, you already gave the killer info. So yeh, it's good how it is.

If I don't know what perks attempted to show my Aura is my business, not killer's or other players'. Who wants to be shielded from the trial beginning can let it active: I don't care to be invisible in the first two minutes, I want to be invisible when I have been hooked twice and I'm in extreme danger. The locker reform is not related to Distortion: it's a new passive mechanic for all survivors, about which my ideas are not clear.

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Ummm only jump scare meyers will do that mostly, which isn't common. Most meyers dont attach aura reading while stalk so yeh, not much mentioning. It also runs freddy through the ground as he has to leave the chase, leave survivor, and wait 10 seconds to see the survivor aura

Very good point! I've completely forgotten this, because the Nightmare is the rarest killer I meet, when I play survivor: he can destroy your perk by simply bringing you in Dream World: if you are not able to find a gen or a mate within 30 seconds, Distortion has gone forever...

@friendlykillermain said:
NO its a bit too strong actually it needs a 180 second cooldown instead of token useage

Ehm... some explanation why it would be too strong? I made mathematical arguments: how can you rebut them in a line?

Look at Iron Grasp vs Boil Over: -75% wiggling effects for all survivors vs +75% wiggling effects for a single survivor, i.e. four Boil Over are equal to Iron Grasp (aside the secondary effects: a longer wiggling time in the killer perk and the disruption of hooks Aura-reading ability in the survivor perks). It's not madness: it's math!

Why do you want to destroy stealthy playstyle? If survivors loop, they are bad; if survivors use pallets, vaults and flashlights, they are bad; if survivors hide, they are bad... what the hell survivor playstyle do you want? All these Aura-reading abilities are destroying the game atmosphere, nobody cares about crows or sounds or blood: no, let's see all people with magic powers... What are the bushes, the dark areas for? What is Yamaoka Estate for? What is the use of the Dark Mist? Do all the maps flat like The Game and we'll finish it, then.

DarkGGhost · November 2018

@Entità You forgot one small detail it's sapost to be 1vs4 if one person is equal to the killer then the killer will lose ( and plz don't try to use the database of dbd the are garbage). Second, they say ( if remember correctly) that it's will not counter killer add-ons. Last survivors have way more info than killers ( especial SWF) so in order, killer to play the game they need some kind of info in the game otherwise it's will pointless to try to find another Claudette.

Douseelight · November 2018

Hello, I have played about 10 times with distortion I have never lost any token so I am desperate to see it's used at least once. Tough for a new perk not to be of any use, so difficult to judge of its interest if it is...

Dabrownman1812 · November 2018

DarkGGhost said:

@Entità You forgot one small detail it's sapost to be 1vs4 if one person is equal to the killer then the killer will lose ( and plz don't try to use the database of dbd the are garbage). Second, they say ( if remember correctly) that it's will not counter killer add-ons. Last survivors have way more info than killers ( especial SWF) so in order, killer to play the game they need some kind of info in the game otherwise it's will pointless to try to find another Claudette.

Yup, also as I said if you have to activate it you would have to know if they have the perk already. That's why it activates to let you know if they have the perk. If you activate it you could use it when not needed or too late getting you revealed anyway. Why does sprint burst not activate on demand by a button press? To prevent it from being too strong. Same for this perk.

Dabrownman1812 · November 2018

Entità said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
The point is it would be way too strong if you could choose, also if you have to choose then you don't know what perks they have cause that means you'll have to preemptively activate it. It's great because you can go into a locker when someone gets picked up to avoid losing a token. When you're healing you block nurses for some time automatically. Once your aura is revealed for even 1 second, you already gave the killer info. So yeh, it's good how it is.

If I don't know what perks attempted to show my Aura is my business, not killer's or other players'. Who wants to be shielded from the trial beginning can let it active: I don't care to be invisible in the first two minutes, I want to be invisible when I have been hooked twice and I'm in extreme danger. The locker reform is not related to Distortion: it's a new passive mechanic for all survivors, about which my ideas are not clear.

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Ummm only jump scare meyers will do that mostly, which isn't common. Most meyers dont attach aura reading while stalk so yeh, not much mentioning. It also runs freddy through the ground as he has to leave the chase, leave survivor, and wait 10 seconds to see the survivor aura

Very good point! I've completely forgotten this, because the Nightmare is the rarest killer I meet, when I play survivor: he can destroy your perk by simply bringing you in Dream World: if you are not able to find a gen or a mate within 30 seconds, Distortion has gone forever...

@friendlykillermain said:
NO its a bit too strong actually it needs a 180 second cooldown instead of token useage

Ehm... some explanation why it would be too strong? I made mathematical arguments: how can you rebut them in a line?

Look at Iron Grasp vs Boil Over: -75% wiggling effects for all survivors vs +75% wiggling effects for a single survivor, i.e. four Boil Over are equal to Iron Grasp (aside the secondary effects: a longer wiggling time in the killer perk and the disruption of hooks Aura-reading ability in the survivor perks). It's not madness: it's math!

Why do you want to destroy stealthy playstyle? If survivors loop, they are bad; if survivors use pallets, vaults and flashlights, they are bad; if survivors hide, they are bad... what the hell survivor playstyle do you want? All these Aura-reading abilities are destroying the game atmosphere, nobody cares about crows or sounds or blood: no, let's see all people with magic powers... What are the bushes, the dark areas for? What is Yamaoka Estate for? What is the use of the Dark Mist? Do all the maps flat like The Game and we'll finish it, then.

Word, not bout playstyle. It's 4v1 a killer perk is supposed to counter n be more powerful than survivor perks. Jeff comes with aura reading the killer and aura blocking, killer has gen detection and locker juke reveal, seems pretty solid. Also stealth still works, maybe it's just you but I don't use stealth perks and I can still stealth. I'm not the only one.

Entità · December 2018

@DarkGGhost said:
@Entità You forgot one small detail it's sapost to be 1vs4 if one person is equal to the killer then the killer will lose ( and plz don't try to use the database of dbd the are garbage). Second, they say ( if remember correctly) that it's will not counter killer add-ons. Last survivors have way more info than killers ( especial SWF) so in order, killer to play the game they need some kind of info in the game otherwise it's will pointless to try to find another Claudette.

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Word, not bout playstyle. It's 4v1 a killer perk is supposed to counter n be more powerful than survivor perks. Jeff comes with aura reading the killer and aura blocking, killer has gen detection and locker juke reveal, seems pretty solid. Also stealth still works, maybe it's just you but I don't use stealth perks and I can still stealth. I'm not the only one.

Are you sure you have read my message before replying that the killer perks must be stronger than the survivor perks? I have never compared Distortion vs BBQ, no, I have compared FOUR Distortion vs ONE BBQ, and the result is the following: the maximum potential of 4 Distortion is equal to 2/5 of the maximum potential of 1 BBQ, in ideal, optimal conditions: this means that the entire team of survivors, considered as a whole, cannot even counter half the killer's Aura readings. Adding Bitter Murmur, A Nurse's Calling and other Aura reading faculties, the balance of power is even more unbalanced in favor of the killer. This is unfair: ONE killer perk cannot count as EIGHT survivor perks.

The bushes, the debris, the wheat fields, the trees, the ruined walls and all the structures are not only aesthetic decorations or obstacles for the chases: they are also hiding places, to escape from the killer's murderous rage. The killer has a first-person view and third-person survivors just to allow them to watch their backs, sneak in stealth when the heartbeat increases or something else suggests a strategic retreat. Dead by Daylight is a fatal game of hide and seek: the pallets, vaults, torches, are secondary tools, very useful, for heaven's sake, but the primary purpose of the survivor is to remain crouched, to evade the enemy. If you run, you leave red scratches and ravens flee scared; if you are hurt, the blood stains and the moans of pain betray your hiding place: these mechanics are becoming negligible, irrelevant, because the magic of the Aura shows the killer where you are: three quarters of the killers use BBQ, at least a third A Nurse's Calling , it's much easier to go without fail. I do not want the invisibility for free, I'm ready to spend a perk slot to get it, but give me back the atmosphere of tension, the thrill of the challenge, the fear of the unknown. Too many Auras, the rest is becoming side dish.

Lockers? Find someone in Rotten Fields or Shelter Woods or in the Swamps (four typically stealthy maps, full of open-air hiding places) and we'll talk about it.

Bravo0413 · December 2018

Distortion is incredibly bugged!... so save the review for when its fixed! 😁

Entità · December 2018

@Douseelight @Bravo0413 Report all the issues, please!

DarkGGhost · December 2018

@Entità ok you say that is the best case scenario that BBQ can see all the survivors fair. Le'ts talk about the case where BBQ can't find survivors in that case the new perk became useless. and now let's talk what really happen in games most of the time the BBQ will find 1-2 survivors and the killer will kill 2 survivors so if we say he/she hook them 3 times this is 2x3x2=12. So 12 time is the most like it a number a killer will see the survivors ( keep in mind i see 2 no 1). With the new perk, the number goes down to 6 ( if he sees only the same 2 survivors). With this number now you see the perk can counter 50% of the aura reading of killer alone. For me, this is not fail at all.

Bravo0413 · December 2018

Entità said:

@Douseelight @Bravo0413 Report all the issues, please!

Devs already know about them.. honestly I didn't read that you did a bunch of math and etc... this perk is fine and will combat the killers momentum for a decent duration of the game... that said... the devs try tho about both sides... they don't want the killer player going in a match and playing running/ hunting sim...

Entità · December 2018

@Bravo0413 I'll summarize you my point. I have compared FOUR Distortion vs ONE BBQ, and the result is the following: the maximum potential of 4 Distortion is equal to 2/5 of the maximum potential of 1 BBQ, in ideal, optimal conditions: this means that the entire team of survivors, considered as a whole, cannot even counter half the killer's Aura readings. Adding Bitter Murmur, A Nurse's Calling and other Aura reading faculties, the balance of power is even more unbalanced in favor of the killer. The bushes, the debris, the wheat fields, the trees, the ruined walls and all the structures are not only aesthetic decorations or obstacles for the chases: they are also hiding places. The killer has a first-person view and third-person survivors just to allow them to watch their backs, sneak in stealth when the heartbeat increases or something else suggests a strategic retreat. Dead by Daylight is a fatal game of hide and seek: the pallets, vaults, torches, are secondary tools, very useful, for heaven's sake, but the primary purpose of the survivor is to remain crouched, to evade the enemy. If you run, you leave red scratches and ravens flee scared; if you are hurt, the blood stains and the moans of pain betray your hiding place: these mechanics are becoming negligible, irrelevant, because the magic of the Aura shows the killer where you are: three quarters of the killers use BBQ, at least a third A Nurse's Calling , it's much easier to go without fail. I do not want the invisibility for free, I'm ready to spend a perk slot to get it, but give me back the atmosphere of tension, the thrill of the challenge, the fear of the unknown. Too many Auras, the rest is becoming side dish.

@DarkGGhost If Distortion counters some Aura-readings, the killer still enjoys up to 100% extra BPs, so BBQ doesn't become useless or weak.

DarkGGhost · December 2018

@Entità i know i just point the aura reading and how offended you see killer run more than one aura rending perk?

friendlykillermain · December 2018

@Entità said:
@Bravo0413 I'll summarize you my point. I have compared FOUR Distortion vs ONE BBQ, and the result is the following: the maximum potential of 4 Distortion is equal to 2/5 of the maximum potential of 1 BBQ, in ideal, optimal conditions: this means that the entire team of survivors, considered as a whole, cannot even counter half the killer's Aura readings. Adding Bitter Murmur, A Nurse's Calling and other Aura reading faculties, the balance of power is even more unbalanced in favor of the killer. The bushes, the debris, the wheat fields, the trees, the ruined walls and all the structures are not only aesthetic decorations or obstacles for the chases: they are also hiding places. The killer has a first-person view and third-person survivors just to allow them to watch their backs, sneak in stealth when the heartbeat increases or something else suggests a strategic retreat. Dead by Daylight is a fatal game of hide and seek: the pallets, vaults, torches, are secondary tools, very useful, for heaven's sake, but the primary purpose of the survivor is to remain crouched, to evade the enemy. If you run, you leave red scratches and ravens flee scared; if you are hurt, the blood stains and the moans of pain betray your hiding place: these mechanics are becoming negligible, irrelevant, because the magic of the Aura shows the killer where you are: three quarters of the killers use BBQ, at least a third A Nurse's Calling , it's much easier to go without fail. I do not want the invisibility for free, I'm ready to spend a perk slot to get it, but give me back the atmosphere of tension, the thrill of the challenge, the fear of the unknown. Too many Auras, the rest is becoming side dish.

@DarkGGhost If Distortion counters some Aura-readings, the killer still enjoys up to 100% extra BPs, so BBQ doesn't become useless or weak.

you might want to rethonk that if its only 100% bloodpoints and the aura reading is gone then we lose more than yu think although it wasnt amazing the auraus really helped out

Entità · December 2018

@friendlykillermain @DarkGGhost I like "hide and seek": when I play survivor, I like a stealthy playstyle. If I cannot hide my Aura, then stealth is destroyed... But, you know, Distortion is 1 perk among 59: you cannot speak as if it were a passive protection given to everybody, no, you must pay to have it, and a lot of people will keep using other builds. Don't worry: BBQ won't become useless.

Robb_Stark · December 2018

Bake the locker aura reading into the new Distortion survivor perk as a passive on it and if they use the locker to block an aura reading it won't consume one of their tokens. At least this would make it so it would cost them a perk slot if they really hated aura perks, abilities, etc.

^This. But that is not a buff to Distortion, it's a nerf for the Lockers (for those that do not run the perk). As it is now, Lockers block Auras regardless.

That being said, add the Locker Aura reading to the Distortion perk in order to balance the new Locker mechanic, but still buff Distortion.

Robb_Stark · December 2018

I would change/buff Distortion as it follows:

Whenever you complete a Generator, you gain one token (something similar to Dark Sense).
Distortion should hide your Aura and your Location. That being said, it now affects Rancor, Doctor's Madness and Whispers.
Change the duration for each tier: tier I - 10 seconds, tier II - 15 seconds, tier III - 20 seconds. This change only helps with Whispers which would otherwise consume tokens way too fast. Also, remove the Scratch Marks part as this would make the perk overpowered.

Note: The Doctor can still hear you screaming, but your location won't get revealed.

Ihatelife · December 2018

Please devs, buff it

Dabrownman1812 · December 2018

Entità said:

@DarkGGhost said:
@Entità You forgot one small detail it's sapost to be 1vs4 if one person is equal to the killer then the killer will lose ( and plz don't try to use the database of dbd the are garbage). Second, they say ( if remember correctly) that it's will not counter killer add-ons. Last survivors have way more info than killers ( especial SWF) so in order, killer to play the game they need some kind of info in the game otherwise it's will pointless to try to find another Claudette.

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Word, not bout playstyle. It's 4v1 a killer perk is supposed to counter n be more powerful than survivor perks. Jeff comes with aura reading the killer and aura blocking, killer has gen detection and locker juke reveal, seems pretty solid. Also stealth still works, maybe it's just you but I don't use stealth perks and I can still stealth. I'm not the only one.

Are you sure you have read my message before replying that the killer perks must be stronger than the survivor perks? I have never compared Distortion vs BBQ, no, I have compared FOUR Distortion vs ONE BBQ, and the result is the following: the maximum potential of 4 Distortion is equal to 2/5 of the maximum potential of 1 BBQ, in ideal, optimal conditions: this means that the entire team of survivors, considered as a whole, cannot even counter half the killer's Aura readings. Adding Bitter Murmur, A Nurse's Calling and other Aura reading faculties, the balance of power is even more unbalanced in favor of the killer. This is unfair: ONE killer perk cannot count as EIGHT survivor perks.

The bushes, the debris, the wheat fields, the trees, the ruined walls and all the structures are not only aesthetic decorations or obstacles for the chases: they are also hiding places, to escape from the killer's murderous rage. The killer has a first-person view and third-person survivors just to allow them to watch their backs, sneak in stealth when the heartbeat increases or something else suggests a strategic retreat. Dead by Daylight is a fatal game of hide and seek: the pallets, vaults, torches, are secondary tools, very useful, for heaven's sake, but the primary purpose of the survivor is to remain crouched, to evade the enemy. If you run, you leave red scratches and ravens flee scared; if you are hurt, the blood stains and the moans of pain betray your hiding place: these mechanics are becoming negligible, irrelevant, because the magic of the Aura shows the killer where you are: three quarters of the killers use BBQ, at least a third A Nurse's Calling , it's much easier to go without fail. I do not want the invisibility for free, I'm ready to spend a perk slot to get it, but give me back the atmosphere of tension, the thrill of the challenge, the fear of the unknown. Too many Auras, the rest is becoming side dish.

Lockers? Find someone in Rotten Fields or Shelter Woods or in the Swamps (four typically stealthy maps, full of open-air hiding places) and we'll talk about it.

Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.

Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate. The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks.

You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).

Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read.

Dabrownman1812 · December 2018

Robb_Stark said:

I would change/buff Distortion as it follows:

Whenever you complete a Generator, you gain one token (something similar to Dark Sense).

Distortion should hide your Aura and your Location. That being said, it now affects Rancor, Doctor's Madness and Whispers.

Change the duration for each tier: tier I - 10 seconds, tier II - 15 seconds, tier III - 20 seconds. This change only helps with Whispers which would otherwise consume tokens way too fast. Also, remove the Scratch Marks part as this would make the perk overpowered.

Note: The Doctor can still hear you screaming, but your location won't get revealed.

9h, but then you risk not even getting 3 tokens, or any. And whispers isn't aura reading so prob not that, whispers isn't accurate so why block whispers? If you don't finish gens but is in chase and helping with altruism you get no use from the perk

Entità · December 2018

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.

Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate. The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks.

You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).

Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read.

You are forgetting that information is power, that intelligence is the beating heart of every war: you reduce the Auras shown by BBQ to only one, because only one is the survivor you can chase ... It's not like that at all. Seeing all the distant Auras means mastering the map, and knowingly choosing where to hunt: you instantly discover if someone approaches a hex totem, you know if someone is healing or repairing in collaboration (and you make a banquet, if your name is Leatherface) , you realize the strategies of maneuver of your opponents, you can calculate the probabilities that a survivor, after searching a Chest, go to the generator X or Y (which you see, too), in short, you have an exact photograph of the enemy's moves. If all this really were not useful, then the perk would be: "When you hook a survivor, you see the Aura of a random companion over 40 meters", since it is only one that you can follow, right? I don't want BBQ or A Nurse's Calling or Bitter Murmur or other killer detection perks are nerfed, which means a Christmas gift for all survivors: I simply want the freedom to buy a good shield, paying a fair price. Sole Survivor is not a good shield (not only bad, but also broken mechanic: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28469/sole-survivor-vs-bbq-chilli ), and nobody uses it: I hope Distortion won't share the same destiny, to be left on the shelves...

Let's speak concretely. What do you find unbalanced in my proposal (the three options are obviously alternatives, with preference for one of the first two)?
1) the largest number of tokens (4/5/6, instead of 3);
2) the reloadability of tokens (the @Robb_Stark proposal can be integrated as a recharge mode, for example: if you want to recover a token, then make the equivalent of a generator);
3) the ability to activate the shield on request.

The size of the maps (the swamps have been drastically reduced), the gen rush, the ease of destroying Ruin are all interesting and reasonable speeches, but you cannot mix all the game mechanics in a thread about a single, new stealth perk, however still experimental, under verification and settling (PTB means this: try and let us know your feedback).

Entità · December 2018

Incidentally, I support the idea that the Distortion buff goes hand in hand with a fair strengthening of Frenzy, which makes it more effective and fearful and truly unique. Regarding the modalities, there are dozens of threads that deal with the matter brilliantly.

Crizpen · December 2018

@Entità said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.

Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate. The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks.

You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).

Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read.

You are forgetting that information is power, that intelligence is the beating heart of every war: you reduce the Auras shown by BBQ to only one, because only one is the survivor you can chase ... It's not like that at all. Seeing all the distant Auras means mastering the map, and knowingly choosing where to hunt: you instantly discover if someone approaches a hex totem, you know if someone is healing or repairing in collaboration (and you make a banquet, if your name is Leatherface) , you realize the strategies of maneuver of your opponents, you can calculate the probabilities that a survivor, after searching a Chest, go to the generator X or Y (which you see, too), in short, you have an exact photograph of the enemy's moves. If all this really were not useful, then the perk would be: "When you hook a survivor, you see the Aura of a random companion over 40 meters", since it is only one that you can follow, right? I don't want BBQ or A Nurse's Calling or Bitter Murmur or other killer detection perks are nerfed, which means a Christmas gift for all survivors: I simply want the freedom to buy a good shield, paying a fair price. Sole Survivor is not a good shield (not only bad, but also broken mechanic: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28469/sole-survivor-vs-bbq-chilli ), and nobody uses it: I hope Distortion won't share the same destiny, to be left on the shelves...

Let's speak concretely. What do you find unbalanced in my proposal (the three options are obviously alternatives, with preference for one of the first two)?
1) the largest number of tokens (4/5/6, instead of 3);
2) the reloadability of tokens (the @Robb_Stark proposal can be integrated as a recharge mode, for example: if you want to recover a token, then make the equivalent of a generator);
3) the ability to activate the shield on request.

The size of the maps (the swamps have been drastically reduced), the gen rush, the ease of destroying Ruin are all interesting and reasonable speeches, but you cannot mix all the game mechanics in a thread about a single, new stealth perk, however still experimental, under verification and settling (PTB means this: try and let us know your feedback).

There are very few killer perks which cannot be countered, even prior to Distortion. Among those that can be are both Nurse's Calling (don't heal in the terror radius or most killers) and BBQ (hide behind a generator, or rush within 40 meters when someone goes down), which also happen to be two of the most powerful perks killers get.

By comparison, would it be balanced for killers to have a perk that stops ALL exhaustion perks within their terror radius? Of course not. It would destroy Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing and Lithe, making some of the most powerful survivor perks useless.

Furthermore, countering BBQ in particular is a distinctly bad idea. Most of the time, when hooking a survivor, you can see at least one other across the map. Hooking a new survivor for another stack, as well as having a general idea of where to find that survivor is a lot of incentive to leave the hook. Conversely, survivors generally (and should) assume the killer is running BBQ, and have at least a 40 meter head start on escaping before he gets there. They know where the killer is coming from, and SWF groups definitely inform each other where the killer is headed to give that survivor a better chance of escaping.

On the other hand, if the hook is made and no auras are revealed, there are several possibilities. Just as likely as any, and safer to combat, is that there are survivors within 40 meters, close enough to make a quick hook save. So why would the killer leave? Oh course, he wouldn't. Complaints about proxy camping go up, complaints about tunneling when the hook save is made with the killer nearby go up... no one is having as much fun.

Now, Distortion isn't being added in isolation either, it's also coming with locker changes which can be used in addition to block auras. See someone go down - head for a locker. While it should be a perk, or added to Distortion, it's not.

Having a 3-token cap hardly makes the perk weak. In your average match, the killer might see 3 auras from Nurse's, since people already know not to heal within the terror radius, much less 3 from a specific survivor. And, as for BBQ, it would require hooking 3 other survivors more than 40 meters away, which again, easily countered if you're concerned about your aura showing. Meaning, it will last all, or nearly all of the match if you're prioritizing hiding your aura over getting those extra 30 seconds on the generator when you may be shown. So no, there isn't a purpose in increasing the stacks when it's already entirely too powerful as it stands. All increasing the number of stacks, or allowing you to gain more stacks, will do is encourage survivors to play lazy, not smart.

Activating the "shield on request" is also fairly absurd, for much the same reasons. In effect, you can do this already by moving toward the down'ed player when you see them drop, saving your stack for later in the match. Deciding you're in a safe location to allow the aura to display, and then hiding it when you're in more danger would hand entirely too much power to the survivors.

But let's take the game pre-DLC as the base. According to the dev's roughly half of all survivors escape every match. That isn't true against specific killers, like Truetalent, Monto, TydeTyme, etc... but according to their numbers, it's about the average. In the DLC, survivors are getting this great new perk. They're also getting a nifty perk for sabo teams to utilize, and there isn't a single thing any killer can do to counter any of them.

Killers aren't so lucky. Iron Maiden is crap on anyone except Doctor, Mad Grit isn't worth running, Discordance might be somewhat viable on some builds, but is easily countered by survivors working on different generators. And, best of all, we get a killer who can't kill.

So, exactly how is survivors getting a great perk to help them survive completing their objectives, while killers don't, unbalanced for survivors?

Dabrownman1812 · December 2018

Crizpen said:

@Entità said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.

Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate. The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks.

You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).

Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read.

You are forgetting that information is power, that intelligence is the beating heart of every war: you reduce the Auras shown by BBQ to only one, because only one is the survivor you can chase ... It's not like that at all. Seeing all the distant Auras means mastering the map, and knowingly choosing where to hunt: you instantly discover if someone approaches a hex totem, you know if someone is healing or repairing in collaboration (and you make a banquet, if your name is Leatherface) , you realize the strategies of maneuver of your opponents, you can calculate the probabilities that a survivor, after searching a Chest, go to the generator X or Y (which you see, too), in short, you have an exact photograph of the enemy's moves. If all this really were not useful, then the perk would be: "When you hook a survivor, you see the Aura of a random companion over 40 meters", since it is only one that you can follow, right? I don't want BBQ or A Nurse's Calling or Bitter Murmur or other killer detection perks are nerfed, which means a Christmas gift for all survivors: I simply want the freedom to buy a good shield, paying a fair price. Sole Survivor is not a good shield (not only bad, but also broken mechanic: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28469/sole-survivor-vs-bbq-chilli ), and nobody uses it: I hope Distortion won't share the same destiny, to be left on the shelves...

Let's speak concretely. What do you find unbalanced in my proposal (the three options are obviously alternatives, with preference for one of the first two)?
1) the largest number of tokens (4/5/6, instead of 3);
2) the reloadability of tokens (the @Robb_Stark proposal can be integrated as a recharge mode, for example: if you want to recover a token, then make the equivalent of a generator);
3) the ability to activate the shield on request.

The size of the maps (the swamps have been drastically reduced), the gen rush, the ease of destroying Ruin are all interesting and reasonable speeches, but you cannot mix all the game mechanics in a thread about a single, new stealth perk, however still experimental, under verification and settling (PTB means this: try and let us know your feedback).

There are very few killer perks which cannot be countered, even prior to Distortion. Among those that can be are both Nurse's Calling (don't heal in the terror radius or most killers) and BBQ (hide behind a generator, or rush within 40 meters when someone goes down), which also happen to be two of the most powerful perks killers get.

By comparison, would it be balanced for killers to have a perk that stops ALL exhaustion perks within their terror radius? Of course not. It would destroy Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing and Lithe, making some of the most powerful survivor perks useless.

Furthermore, countering BBQ in particular is a distinctly bad idea. Most of the time, when hooking a survivor, you can see at least one other across the map. Hooking a new survivor for another stack, as well as having a general idea of where to find that survivor is a lot of incentive to leave the hook. Conversely, survivors generally (and should) assume the killer is running BBQ, and have at least a 40 meter head start on escaping before he gets there. They know where the killer is coming from, and SWF groups definitely inform each other where the killer is headed to give that survivor a better chance of escaping.

On the other hand, if the hook is made and no auras are revealed, there are several possibilities. Just as likely as any, and safer to combat, is that there are survivors within 40 meters, close enough to make a quick hook save. So why would the killer leave? Oh course, he wouldn't. Complaints about proxy camping go up, complaints about tunneling when the hook save is made with the killer nearby go up... no one is having as much fun.

Now, Distortion isn't being added in isolation either, it's also coming with locker changes which can be used in addition to block auras. See someone go down - head for a locker. While it should be a perk, or added to Distortion, it's not.

Having a 3-token cap hardly makes the perk weak. In your average match, the killer might see 3 auras from Nurse's, since people already know not to heal within the terror radius, much less 3 from a specific survivor. And, as for BBQ, it would require hooking 3 other survivors more than 40 meters away, which again, easily countered if you're concerned about your aura showing. Meaning, it will last all, or nearly all of the match if you're prioritizing hiding your aura over getting those extra 30 seconds on the generator when you may be shown. So no, there isn't a purpose in increasing the stacks when it's already entirely too powerful as it stands. All increasing the number of stacks, or allowing you to gain more stacks, will do is encourage survivors to play lazy, not smart.

Activating the "shield on request" is also fairly absurd, for much the same reasons. In effect, you can do this already by moving toward the down'ed player when you see them drop, saving your stack for later in the match. Deciding you're in a safe location to allow the aura to display, and then hiding it when you're in more danger would hand entirely too much power to the survivors.

But let's take the game pre-DLC as the base. According to the dev's roughly half of all survivors escape every match. That isn't true against specific killers, like Truetalent, Monto, TydeTyme, etc... but according to their numbers, it's about the average. In the DLC, survivors are getting this great new perk. They're also getting a nifty perk for sabo teams to utilize, and there isn't a single thing any killer can do to counter any of them.

Killers aren't so lucky. Iron Maiden is crap on anyone except Doctor, Mad Grit isn't worth running, Discordance might be somewhat viable on some builds, but is easily countered by survivors working on different generators. And, best of all, we get a killer who can't kill.

So, exactly how is survivors getting a great perk to help them survive completing their objectives, while killers don't, unbalanced for survivors?

Keep in mind those numbers took into account the hallowed blight event where survivors killed themselves left and right in order to run through vials in terms of survivors escaping.

Entità · December 2018

@Crizpen @Dabrownman1812 You do real examples, but not very pertinent: the point is not to heal in the Trapper's terror radius in Coldwind Farm, the problem is to cure yourself with the Pig crouched in Lery or with the Wraith in The Game or with Myers in Backwater, to say. The problem is not to be seen with BBQ in the first minute of the game, the problem is not having any hope when you face Hillbilly or the Nurse in Shelton Wood, who has just sacrificed the last of your companions at the opposite end of the map. These are the cases in which stealth can save your life, it is in these circumstances that you need a Distortion worthy of the role. I repeat, they invented Sole Survivor, but it does not work, and nobody uses it: if Distortion protects you in the first minutes of play, when you do not need it, because the killer can choose other targets, because, if targeted, you can count on the rescue of others, but abandons you in the extreme need, it will not make a lot of career in the inventory of players, especially those who play alone, without parties and no friends ready to risk everything for you (yes, they're a race in extinction, but still some unfortunate solitary survivors exist...).

You say the truth, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Lithe are very powerful perks for the survivors, and a good majority of players use them, but not me: I do not find any pleasure in mocking the killer, I look for emotional identification, so constant tension, an electrifying challenge for survival, and mocking those who want to quarter you from behind a pallet is not very consistent with the atmosphere of absolute panic that anyone would feel if that situation were real. And we come to your fear that the killer no longer sees any Aura and stays near the hooked guy: as you have recognized, there are other perks of fashion, the stealth style is clearly minority, and there is no risk that everyone uses it, destroying BBQ (without prejudice to the gain of 100% extra blood points, of course): people have fun with the loops, with the flashlights, teabagging the killer whenever a juke is successful, and have no slot to waste with Distortion. In addition, the game was born without BBQ and worked for long months without the imperative need to introduce "spells" to find the prey: you cannot claim that the killer is doomed to defeat if one or two players occasionally shield their Aura reading ability.

Finally, I agree with the killer buffs: I do not like facing an insipid enemy, or being tasteless myself when I impersonate him. Above all, I detest the useless perks: every perk must be a winning card, a special resource that gives powerful advantages to those who choose to invest in it, and this is especially true for those who, with four perks, must deal with sixteen. You will never see me as opposed to the killer perks empowering, unless they give the certainty of victory, destroying the challenge.

Dabrownman1812 · December 2018

Entità said:

@Crizpen @Dabrownman1812 You do real examples, but not very pertinent: the point is not to heal in the Trapper's terror radius in Coldwind Farm, the problem is to cure yourself with the Pig crouched in Lery or with the Wraith in The Game or with Myers in Backwater, to say. The problem is not to be seen with BBQ in the first minute of the game, the problem is not having any hope when you face Hillbilly or the Nurse in Shelton Wood, who has just sacrificed the last of your companions at the opposite end of the map. These are the cases in which stealth can save your life, it is in these circumstances that you need a Distortion worthy of the role. I repeat, they invented Sole Survivor, but it does not work, and nobody uses it: if Distortion protects you in the first minutes of play, when you do not need it, because the killer can choose other targets, because, if targeted, you can count on the rescue of others, but abandons you in the extreme need, it will not make a lot of career in the inventory of players, especially those who play alone, without parties and no friends ready to risk everything for you (yes, they're a race in extinction, but still some unfortunate solitary survivors exist...).

You say the truth, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Lithe are very powerful perks for the survivors, and a good majority of players use them, but not me: I do not find any pleasure in mocking the killer, I look for emotional identification, so constant tension, an electrifying challenge for survival, and mocking those who want to quarter you from behind a pallet is not very consistent with the atmosphere of absolute panic that anyone would feel if that situation were real. And we come to your fear that the killer no longer sees any Aura and stays near the hooked guy: as you have recognized, there are other perks of fashion, the stealth style is clearly minority, and there is no risk that everyone uses it, destroying BBQ (without prejudice to the gain of 100% extra blood points, of course): people have fun with the loops, with the flashlights, teabagging the killer whenever a juke is successful, and have no slot to waste with Distortion. In addition, the game was born without BBQ and worked for long months without the imperative need to introduce "spells" to find the prey: you cannot claim that the killer is doomed to defeat if one or two players occasionally shield their Aura reading ability.

Finally, I agree with the killer buffs: I do not like facing an insipid enemy, or being tasteless myself when I impersonate him. Above all, I detest the useless perks: every perk must be a winning card, a special resource that gives powerful advantages to those who choose to invest in it, and this is especially true for those who, with four perks, must deal with sixteen. You will never see me as opposed to the killer perks empowering, unless they give the certainty of victory, destroying the challenge.

Lets agree to disagree, you gotta use it in a certain way and yes it is helpful, I just don't have time to be on forums as much lol.

Crizpen · December 2018

Entità said:

@Crizpen @Dabrownman1812 You do real examples, but not very pertinent: the point is not to heal in the Trapper's terror radius in Coldwind Farm, the problem is to cure yourself with the Pig crouched in Lery or with the Wraith in The Game or with Myers in Backwater, to say. The problem is not to be seen with BBQ in the first minute of the game, the problem is not having any hope when you face Hillbilly or the Nurse in Shelton Wood, who has just sacrificed the last of your companions at the opposite end of the map. These are the cases in which stealth can save your life, it is in these circumstances that you need a Distortion worthy of the role. I repeat, they invented Sole Survivor, but it does not work, and nobody uses it: if Distortion protects you in the first minutes of play, when you do not need it, because the killer can choose other targets, because, if targeted, you can count on the rescue of others, but abandons you in the extreme need, it will not make a lot of career in the inventory of players, especially those who play alone, without parties and no friends ready to risk everything for you (yes, they're a race in extinction, but still some unfortunate solitary survivors exist...).

You say the truth, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Lithe are very powerful perks for the survivors, and a good majority of players use them, but not me: I do not find any pleasure in mocking the killer, I look for emotional identification, so constant tension, an electrifying challenge for survival, and mocking those who want to quarter you from behind a pallet is not very consistent with the atmosphere of absolute panic that anyone would feel if that situation were real. And we come to your fear that the killer no longer sees any Aura and stays near the hooked guy: as you have recognized, there are other perks of fashion, the stealth style is clearly minority, and there is no risk that everyone uses it, destroying BBQ (without prejudice to the gain of 100% extra blood points, of course): people have fun with the loops, with the flashlights, teabagging the killer whenever a juke is successful, and have no slot to waste with Distortion. In addition, the game was born without BBQ and worked for long months without the imperative need to introduce "spells" to find the prey: you cannot claim that the killer is doomed to defeat if one or two players occasionally shield their Aura reading ability.

Finally, I agree with the killer buffs: I do not like facing an insipid enemy, or being tasteless myself when I impersonate him. Above all, I detest the useless perks: every perk must be a winning card, a special resource that gives powerful advantages to those who choose to invest in it, and this is especially true for those who, with four perks, must deal with sixteen. You will never see me as opposed to the killer perks empowering, unless they give the certainty of victory, destroying the challenge.

Of course, there are times when the RNG does not work in your favor, when you get a particular killer on a particular map that isn’t favorable to you, but the opposite is also true, and a particular killer on a map which is neither favorable nor unfavorable is most likely.

To say a powerful perk needs a buff for those specific situations is hardly a good reason. How could it be limited to only those killer/map combinations you find frustrating, and not when it would only be exploited to god status in the vast majority of map/killer combinations.

Of course, the game didn’t have BBQ at release, but it’s addition was good for the game health. It’s good for the killer to have reasons to leave the hook. Even if it means a different survivor gets chased. Even if that survivor is you.

All over these forums are complaints about killers tunneling and camping, and there is one killer perk which specifically discourages that: BBQ and Chili. Why then add locker changes and Distortion which directly counter it?

I’ve asked the question here many times and the best response I have gotten is that 1 survivor shouldn’t be targeted because another messed up. As if this weren’t a team game for survivors.

I don’t want to camp, or proxy camp, as a killer, but what the Dev’s are giving us will only increase the likelihood that it will happen, and you’re suggesting making that worse.

Do killers have to have BBQ? Of course not, and it will be used less with the upcoming changes in favor of perks unaffected by Distortion. But will the game be more enjoyable for survivors? Probably not if you’re hanging on your first hook until you die because the other survivors won’t risk a proxy camp. Probably not if you’re saved off the hook and the killer is still close enough to tunnel you down.

I can understand giving survivors a way to counter Nurse’s, even if they don’t know or realize they’re within range of setting it off. BBQ, though, is an outstanding perk that not only assists the killer, but does exactly what survivors beg for: it gets the killer away from the hook. There’s no good reason for it to be countered any more than it already is since the aura only displays on far away survivors to begin with.

While the changes coming and those you propose might be good for you in specific situations, they aren’t good for overall game health. They aren’t good to keep people enjoying and continuing to play the game.

RepliCant · December 2018

@Blueberry said:

Here's how we buff distortion and handle the locker aura reading change in one.

Bake the locker aura reading into the new Distortion survivor perk as a passive on it and if they use the locker to block an aura reading it won't consume one of their tokens. At least this would make it so it would cost them a perk slot if they really hated aura perks, abilities, etc. Now those 3 tokens will only be needed when you get caught out and weren't expecting it but you can reliably use the locker.

Dude, I LOVE THAT idea.

Entità · December 2018

@Crizpen said:
Of course, there are times when the RNG does not work in your favor, when you get a particular killer on a particular map that isn’t favorable to you, but the opposite is also true, and a particular killer on a map which is neither favorable nor unfavorable is most likely.

To say a powerful perk needs a buff for those specific situations is hardly a good reason. How could it be limited to only those killer/map combinations you find frustrating, and not when it would only be exploited to god status in the vast majority of map/killer combinations.

If, as you say, a neutral combination killer / map is much more likely than a combination killer / map unfavorable to the stealth survivor, then in most cases Distortion is a wasted perk, as it gives you a protection that you could get for free with the three ordinary mechanics (approach less than 40 meters, lock yourself in a locker or crouch behind a generator). You should therefore be glad that someone chooses Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, because while it is almost inevitable to be chased one or more times in every game and, therefore, Sprint Burst is always useful, on the contrary Distortion is situational, ie shows its usefulness when nobody of the three free remedies is possible, in fairly limited cases. I would understand if your challenge directly hit the new mechanics of lockers, free for all, while I sincerely do not take the sense of fighting a more effective Distortion in its function of ensuring, to those who want it, that is a minority of survivors, a stealth game . Reading the Aura of the survivors is not a basic mechanics: it is generated by a perk and by another perk can be countered (partially: 100% bonus remains, and is an important part of its attractiveness).

@Crizpen said:
Of course, the game didn’t have BBQ at release, but it’s addition was good for the game health. It’s good for the killer to have reasons to leave the hook. Even if it means a different survivor gets chased. Even if that survivor is you.

All over these forums are complaints about killers tunneling and camping, and there is one killer perk which specifically discourages that: BBQ and Chili. Why then add locker changes and Distortion which directly counter it?

I’ve asked the question here many times and the best response I have gotten is that 1 survivor shouldn’t be targeted because another messed up. As if this weren’t a team game for survivors.

I don’t want to camp, or proxy camp, as a killer, but what the Dev’s are giving us will only increase the likelihood that it will happen, and you’re suggesting making that worse.

Do killers have to have BBQ? Of course not, and it will be used less with the upcoming changes in favor of perks unaffected by Distortion. But will the game be more enjoyable for survivors? Probably not if you’re hanging on your first hook until you die because the other survivors won’t risk a proxy camp. Probably not if you’re saved off the hook and the killer is still close enough to tunnel you down.

I can understand giving survivors a way to counter Nurse’s, even if they don’t know or realize they’re within range of setting it off. BBQ, though, is an outstanding perk that not only assists the killer, but does exactly what survivors beg for: it gets the killer away from the hook. There’s no good reason for it to be countered any more than it already is since the aura only displays on far away survivors to begin with.

While the changes coming and those you propose might be good for you in specific situations, they aren’t good for overall game health. They aren’t good to keep people enjoying and continuing to play the game.

The killer leaves the hook because three other survivors can take advantage of it for a gen rush, sacrificing the hooked companion: the killer who wants 4k must get busy, cannot stay two minutes to scratch the balls near the first unfortunate who fell in their clutches. BBQ is a big incentive, I do not deny it, but I cannot accept the idea that the killers use it for the benefit of the survivors: the killers use it for their own profit, as it is right in a competitive game, not for philanthropic desire to ensure the adversaries' fun. I repeat, at least 85% of the killer I meet in rank 1 use BBQ and A Nurse's Calling or at least one of the two, while not even 30% of the survivors would choose Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, Decisive Strike and so on. I think your fears are decidedly excessive, in light of the clear preference of the survivors for a provocative gamestyle towards the killer.

However, the DLC will arrive in less than an hour: in the next days we will see if BBQ will really be removed from the killer builds because it has become useless. I do not hide my strong doubts that this will ever happen.

Crizpen · December 2018

@Entità said:
If, as you say, a neutral combination killer / map is much more likely than a combination killer / map unfavorable to the stealth survivor, then in most cases Distortion is a wasted perk, as it gives you a protection that you could get for free with the three ordinary mechanics (approach less than 40 meters, lock yourself in a locker or crouch behind a generator). You should therefore be glad that someone chooses Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, because while it is almost inevitable to be chased one or more times in every game and, therefore, Sprint Burst is always useful, on the contrary Distortion is situational, ie shows its usefulness when nobody of the three free remedies is possible, in fairly limited cases. I would understand if your challenge directly hit the new mechanics of lockers, free for all, while I sincerely do not take the sense of fighting a more effective Distortion in its function of ensuring, to those who want it, that is a minority of survivors, a stealth game . Reading the Aura of the survivors is not a basic mechanics: it is generated by a perk and by another perk can be countered (partially: 100% bonus remains, and is an important part of its attractiveness).

Okay, you're obviously not seeing, or not wanting to see the distinction. So, let's go real slow:

1) A survivor is downed.
2) Remaining survivors can a: rush into 40 meters, b: hide in a locker, c: try to hide behind generator aura, d: run away from their location for 4 seconds before returning.

In 3 of those 4 cases, the survivor isn't working on their generator, or all 4, if a side of the generator to hide their aura isn't available.

With Distortion, that's not the case. Lazy survivors aren't required to take any action to remain safe, and can gen rush to their heart's content.

What are the killer's choices?

Knowing what the survivor options are, he can a: blindly run around the map hoping to find someone else, or b: proxy camp to intercept the save, knowing he'll either ensure that kill, or pick up an additional survivor to chase.

Given these options, he's most likely to stay near the hook until he has a reason to leave.

@Entità said:
The killer leaves the hook because three other survivors can take advantage of it for a gen rush, sacrificing the hooked companion: the killer who wants 4k must get busy, cannot stay two minutes to scratch the balls near the first unfortunate who fell in their clutches. BBQ is a big incentive, I do not deny it, but I cannot accept the idea that the killers use it for the benefit of the survivors: the killers use it for their own profit, as it is right in a competitive game, not for philanthropic desire to ensure the adversaries' fun. I repeat, at least 85% of the killer I meet in rank 1 use BBQ and A Nurse's Calling or at least one of the two, while not even 30% of the survivors would choose Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, Decisive Strike and so on. I think your fears are decidedly excessive, in light of the clear preference of the survivors for a provocative gamestyle towards the killer.

Obviously, the killer doesn't run BBQ for the survivors' benefit, but that doesn't mean the perk doesn't help the game health, or provide the killer with the incentive to do something survivors beg for.

But you want more perks to counter play against other players. Okay, I want a perk that survivors can't self care, or they're always exhausted. That's fair, right? Those are powerful survivor perks that 99% of rank 1 survivors run. So, as the killer, I should have perks to counter yours. Why aren't those introduced to the game? Oh... right... because a perk shouldn't replace having a challenge in the game.

You want to go full immersive, fine. But immersed survivors aren't the only survivors who get locker changes and Distortion. And, no, I don't expect it will replace Sprint Burst / Lithe / BL / DH, or DS, it'll be used in combination with them.

I'm just saying, every thread I see on here with survivors bitching a blue streak about being camped and tunneled, I'm going to point to this perk as the reason why.

Will every killer do it? Of course not. But every killer will have less reason to stray far from the hook, and it won't be their fault - it'll be the survivors running Distortion, and the Dev's adding the locker changes. Enjoy it.

Entità · December 2018

@Crizpen We can continue to discuss it endlessly: I doubt we will find a shared synthesis between our positions, quite irreconcilable. I thank you sincerely for your dialectical contribution to the conversation and for the respectful tones in confronting you with the bearers of different ideas.

Entità · December 2018

@Peanits The PTB is over, but this thread is still relevant for any future perk change. Could you kindly move it into the Balance feedback section? I thank you in advance.

Mister_xD · December 2018

i see no one with BBQ = i stay close to the hook

and you have no right to complain about that, YOU were the ones countering my anti camp perk.

Entità · December 2018

@Mister_xD Is it a revenge? Why all this rage? If you want to stay close to the hook, do it, it's your rightful choice, but do it because it really seems like a winning strategy, not to make someone pay it, it makes no sense. The stealth game is not fashionable, you will never find a team of four survivors with Distortion, at most you find four Selfcare and four Decisive Strike... You, and not only you, are magnifying the problem, in my humble opinion: BBQ will remain powerful and useful, it won't ever become rubbish.

DemonDaddy · December 2018

If Distortion was the sole method of countering aura-reading maybe I could agree with you. As is most perks already have counter play that doesn't even involve another perk. Now this is just my opinion, but I feel that Distortion is used to catch aura reading when you are off guard not as a primary method of going unnoticed. I think that the perk is a great addition to the Arsenal of survivors but any Survivor who solely relies on this one perk to go undetected has bigger issues with their play style then not enough tokens.

SnakeSound222 · December 2018

Yeah, how about no. Distortion isn't even needed. It's just a product of endless whining from Survivors who refuse to counter BBQ.

Entità · December 2018

@DemonDaddy No, it's not the only mean to counter Aura reading abilities, but BBQ is not the only problem: Freddy's dreamworld destroys your tokens, A Nurse's Calling is not counterable if there is a stealthy killer, some Wraith's, Myers' and Doctor's add-ons, Bitter Murmur are impossible to counter.

@SnakeSound222 Someone could say BBQ is a product of endless whining from killers who refuse to look for survivors without magic visions... Read above, please.

Raptorrotas · December 2018

@Entità said:
@DemonDaddy No, it's not the only mean to counter Aura reading abilities, but BBQ is not the only problem: Freddy's dreamworld destroys your tokens, A Nurse's Calling is not counterable if there is a stealthy killer, some Wraith's, Myers' and Doctor's add-ons, Bitter Murmur are impossible to counter.

@SnakeSound222 Someone could say BBQ is a product of endless whining from killers who refuse to look for survivors without magic visions... Read above, please.

Sorry but BBQ is a product of endless whining from survivors about campers. Just that campers got incenitves to leave the hooks (vision and per-survivor-bp) instead of the by survivors oh so desired punishments.

Entità · December 2018

@Raptorrotas Camping is a legitimate strategy, like looping.

@SnakeSound222 I rewrote the opening post, so you and not only you won't pretend anymore BBQ is the only problem: it's the last of a long list, indeed.

Troman · December 2018

I like the idea behind this perk, but yes, it is rather weak.
I think the token-based approach is not a good idea, but if we are to stick to it, we should be able to gain additional tokens.
For example one additional token for each generator that we fully-complete (it could be 30% of 1 generator + 70% of another for example). You might think that's not much, but we know that DEVs are very conservative and 2-3 additional tokes is not bad.

DemonDaddy · December 2018

@Entità
Your right that its not good within the bounds of those senerios, but that's not an issue just bad match ups for that loadout. Dev's told killers that not all perks would be viable with every new killer and I feel that the same is true for survivor perks to counter killers. Every loadout is a gamble against the killer and you may end up with something that proves useless in that particular match. Look at balanced landing; great perk but a bad map can make it a horrible choice given the other options you could have picked. Distortion itself could be useless if the killer runs no aura perks.

Entità · December 2018

@DemonDaddy That a perk I have equipped is not necessary in a particular map or against a certain killer it's part of the game and I accept it willingly.

That a perk I have equipped is unsuitable for the purpose for which it was born, because it is too weak compared to the dozens of Aura reading skills of the killer, I find it essentially an error in the design of the perk itself. I rewrote the OP to better explain this aspect: read it again, please, and give me your feedback.

DemonDaddy · December 2018

@Entità
I think that while the perk does address aura reading and works for its initial purpose, however it does not cover the variety of aura reading methods. The design is highly effective for a momentary read but quickly fails when confronted with a constant power. With that in mind, I think its more about the total time it covers you and not the # of times it activates. I'm not against changes to the perk, but would like to hear the Dev's thoughts in regards to the variety of expenditure.

Distortion is unreasonably too weak!

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