New Iron Will is unfair and here is why
First things first: I may be a survivor main but I am generally glad they finally nerfed the perk. Just not how I expected. And I think there might be a problem, that needs to be addressed.
What the problem is: All Survivors have different volumes regarding their breathing and grunts of pain. Ace is super quiet (like having inbuild IW 2), whereas Jeff, Ash or Haddie are super loud.
Here is a 2 year old video of Otzdarva regarding this. This is still accurate and might get you to understand my problem.
Ace will not suffer from the IW nerf (I rarely used the perk on him anyway) but characters who are a lot louder than the average will suffer. Often they are also rarely played characters too (this loudness is probably one of the reasons they are picked less), so this would make them even more unpopular.
I am a Jeff Main and the single reason why I used IW on him, was so I would not have a loud bear sitting at the Gen who could be heard across the map. Same goes for Ash.
Fix this and the changes might be fine.
Although there will be many Spirits again who use Stridor to get ez kills. I really did not miss that time, but here we are.... Fixing that issue would need an IW/Stridor/Spirit rework that is not meant for this post. But if you'd like to hear it, I will dig it up from one of my ancient posts here.
Comments
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I agree. I use Iron Will all the time, but it's because it completely removes an aspect of tracking in such a significant way that playing without it feels like you're playing wrong. It would be like Lightweight tier 3 removing your scratch marks altogether.
Keep the change putting Iron Will at 75%, but all survivor injured noises and breathing should be normalised to the same volume. Survivors are intended to be purely cosmetic, there should not be gameplay advantages to using specific ones for their quiet noises arbitrarily, punishing players for liking louder characters.
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In my opinion
-i think it was stupid, that iron will also removes your normal breathing sounds aswell and makes you effectively more quit when youre injured than healthy
-i agree that i think its unhealthy for the game that survivors sounds are not equally noisy
-i think ironwill nerf had to be, but how it is now, devs just took the easy way. removing a % is not a good design (sometimes necessary ofc). I just see the very detailed and thoughtful changes on Pop goes the Cheesel and other perks and love it, but then only a brute force nerf hammer on ironwill ist uninspired. I thought of other solutions like it activates while crouching, only for a determined period after injured etc.
-i think the "abscence of noise" power for survivors has a place in the game, only the forever time was too powerful. Atleast in lockers it should have its old effect
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Iron will should've never had multiplied numbers. Now cuz of this they made the numbers down. This means that Stridor will now never be used anymore cuz you always hear them now.
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I kinda forgot about this.
Now I don't feel like playing Jane ever again for example. Can't stand her injured noise.
Never liked Ace much but now I might play him more lol.
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I really think that some Spirit players will use Stridor again. The problem after the Stridor nerf was, that its debuff was no longer additive but multiplicative. And 0*150% is still 0. Now it will be 25%*150%=37.5%. And now you don't even notice anymore that the killer has the perk... Great...
I will still play Jeff but yeah.... I truly understand.
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Imo bring it back at 100% but disabled while exhausted that way it still has downsides of having a trade off with exhaustion perks and can be countered with Fearmonger.
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I am Jeff main, I am really sad with this.
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100% sound reduction is crazy, normalizing survivor volume is what really should be done.
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Yeah, but they won't. So there are survivors who just need Iron Will, which is really bad with those changes.
We can also talk about sizes of survivors, why that is different I have no idea.
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The only issue I see here is that the solution to uneven volumes for injured sounds between survivors is to make the quiet characters louder.
That said, I feel like a volume slider that would let survivors reduce the loudness of their own survivor's injured sounds would be a good addition - it'd address the irritation angle without also robbing the killer of essential info.
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They have different hitbox? seriously?
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I think they mean their physical size (how many pixels they take in the screen) and not the hitbox.. pretty sure all survivor hitboxes are the same size, same as how every killer's attack/lunge has the same range despite some weapons being clearly shorter than others.
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I thought that's not a problem, but yeah it might be problem for hiding although hiding itself is pretty eh.
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I mean technically, someone bigger is harder to spot than someone smaller.. but I feel like characters' "colours" for a lack of better term is more problematic.. Yoichi's default bright yellow raincoat makes him an instant no for me, vs someone with darker clothes. But I can see how that would be attractive to survivors who want to get chased. I don't.
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Because people are not the same.
"So why do you complain about how loud they are?" - Because sounds they make are the same across all maps. Size (and cosmetics) is something that depends on the map. Being a Claudette is better on dark maps, but a great nerf on Ormond. Being Jeff is not so bad on the Saloon or some new maps with large bushes/trees but worse on mps like Autoheaven which have a lot of these half height loops (they are not high enough to hide behind as Jeff).
Or, as a certain little green guy with pointy ears said: "Size matters not."
This is very hard to balance, but sound can be balanced. And sound is very important in the game.
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Normalize all voices and give colorful outline to every survivors, that's the way.
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I have gotten used to not fitting behind every tree or half high loop perfectly as Jeff. That makes it even easier once I play a small character.
My friend is like this. The first thing she does for a new Survivor is to buy the darkest skin in the shop she can find.
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And i don't get why they buffed back these days. It made stridor useless as hell. Now it is not gonna be that useful cuz you hear them already, kinda good for new players, but not the experienced ones.
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It will still make now common mindgames vs spirit completely vanish. Tracking with sound is very easy. Juyt hear where they are and bam, you get them.
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not hitbox (I hope so), but visually yes. Jeff is way higher than Feng for example and try to hdie with Jane behind a tree.
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"People are not the same", but this is a game and this is just making a thing that is only negative.
It would make sense let's say someone is loud, but small etc. basically trade off, but it doesn't work like that.
Jeff is not good on any map, he is tall af, he is loudest thing in the universe, but I like to stare manicingly at others with white face Jeff. It was fine with Iron will, I am not stealthy players, so I don't care about size even tho it doesn't make any sense why they would do it this way for survivors. But sound just sucks.
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If they're concern with Iron Will is its effectiveness at mindgames in chase, then just change its effect in chase / exhausted.
Walking, crouching, etc should keep Iron Will at 100% sound reduction.
Post edited by Nos37 on0 -
Personal, if I could.... I would slightly revert the changes to Exhaustion sounds be muffled by 25% less; back to it original 100%. But... keep the Exhaustion penalty as it makes sense to have a significant downside. It makes running strong Exhaustion perks very risky to pair with new Iron Will.
I do not mind Ninja builds as killer; but I do wish pairing such a strong perk with another is risky or won't work well. (Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, makes catching up or tracking Survivors whom escape the loop before I realise it; can be quite not fun.
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I think it's ok that female survivors are a bit louder than males since they're smaller, so it balances out, but aside that there shouldn't be such huge differences. Playing someone like Jeff gives you a huge disadvange and nothing to compensate.
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The only fun thing that happened when Jeff was new was that you could scare other Survivors with the Corpse Paint cosmetic.
I hasd many people who thought I was Myers.
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As a survivor main I am largely content with the proposed changes being made across the board. I do however have some thoughts on a few reworks that arent quite right/need some clarification:
* Spine Chill - I agree with removing the vault speed boost but think the "line of sight" function ostensibly makes this perk pointless to run.
* Iron Will - I am fine with the tiered noise reduction but dont think that this perk should be impacted by whether or not you are exhausted. This paired with the Spine Chill nerf is a big hit to survivors who enjoy a stealthy game play.
* Off the Record - this is a game breaking buff and I dont think healthy for the game.
* Botany Knowledge - too big a buff
* DS - end game is already a super tunnel and camp heavy period. Taking away a second chance perk is just a sure fire way to be tunneled to oblivion.
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It seems that the running theory behind changes like this are 'If we make the perk unfun and not particularly useful - less people will take it. When less people take it, we did a good job!'
I do not understand why the developers want to make things less fun, or if they simply are misunderstanding the long term implications of changes like this one. Regardless, I firmly believe this change should be reversed and a new approach be taken - an approach that allows killers the opportunity to counter its use while also granting survivors a powerful utility to enjoy in match.
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*spine chill: they said in today's stream that it won't be tied to the LOS, but the TR once it hits live servers (they didn't get the change before). so it will be useless against undetectable (finally), but people who use it because they are hard of hearing can still use it.
*iron will: I'm fine with the exhaustion stuff, but that's personal preference i guess.
*OtR: I fear so too. It probably will be overused in the PTB, but let's see....
*botany: yes.
*DS: i escaped because I had DS still available...... many many times. I lost count. It is a serious problem for killers who don't tunnel (like me) and are therefor heavily punished for it in the end-game. I had many matches where I had 6 hooks and they all got out, because 2 people still had their DS in the end....
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Cant say I am a fan of the spinechill rework not working against undetectable - cannot see it being run much by anyone anymore.
Also as a non-DS user, if you want to stop tunnelling this is the only real anti-tunnelling perk and it is being nerfed further.
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I started to play almost 4 years ago. The only stealth killers were Wraith, Myers and Pig (not counting Freddy, although he could have been considered a stealth killer), of which 2 could be detected with everything aura related and Spine Chill/Premonition while having no TR. Only EWI Myers had something similar to current Undetectable but had a TR of 6m (that's why M&A was so popular on him back then). But there was a huge difference: Myers could not be detected AT ALL. No Aura, no SC or Premonition. Nothing. The perks would not even light up or anything (Object of Obsession). Therefore I just assumed that "It' s a Myers" at the start of the match until I knew better. I learned to position myself well so he could not grab me or anything. I was constantly spinning my cam around. Mirror Myers was so much scarier because of this.
It will be hard to get used to it again and I will get screwed over by Ghost Face on Autoheaven a LOT, but I will manage. Just need to get the rust off :)
About DS: I have used DS for... Ages. I started to use it when you needn't be hooked to get it activated. Back then I used it to get better in chase, since being the obsession could be quite dangerous (contrary to today). I never really stopped using it, because it was necessary to get away from basement camping bubbas, hags or trappers (or farming teammates.....). I have tried to play without it, but I got frustrated after getting farmed and then tunneled out of the match...
But this is not the point. In all that time I noticed that there are many killers out there who don't give a ######### about you wanting to have some fun too. You get BT, hit them with DS and they still tunnel you out of the match. Just because they can. I learned just to jump into lockers (even without DS) if killers tunnel, so they can't slug you. So they need to either leave you, get DSed or waste 1min of their precious time until DS runs out. You can still do that.
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I can appreciate where you are coming from. I started playing around the same time and being an absolute noob I ran Spine Chill and Self Care because I was terrified of being grabbed of a gen. I have played probably about the same time with and without Spine Chill now but enjoy the situational awareness it gives you in chase, when hiding, gen-jockeying or the extra few seconds head start as the killer approaches. With more and more "stealth killers" being added in (Sadako, Ghost, spirit, myers, pig, bingbong) I dont think this is a healthy change.
DS is a game changing perk but it is such a necessary one. The last 5 games I have played I (or one of my team mates - solo q) have been tunnelled and camped by the killer everytime. DS is almost not a thing after the last nerf, this further nerf just means no one will run it and there will be even more tunnelling sweaty killers out there.
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There will be people using DS and OtR together. Get hit fast and then go into a locker.
Seriously: if OtR goes live like it is, it will be the new DS. And even better since the killer either has to grab you or has to wait 80s. This is more difficult then just slug.
Since I play both sides although much more survivor, the spine Chill nerf is a blessing and a curse at the same time.
As someone who loves Myers, Spine Chill + SB is a real pain to deal with, so I'm happy it gets nerfed. But on the same hand I'm unhappy because SC is the only useful perk for me to notice GF on a dark map. I have problems seeing dark killers (or Survivors) on Autoheaven, although I'm not colorblind. Without SC I would only know that the killer comes because I see the red light moving....
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That's another thing re the Spine Chill nerf, it really doesnt take into consideration the hearing or vision impaired players. Get rid of the vault speed but leave it as is otherwise (in my humble opinion).
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The Devs said in their stream on Monday that they will change SC's nerf because of this feedback. It won't be in the PTB because they couldn't do it on time.
Now Spine Chill will activate like the current live version but only inside TR. This means no use anymore against Myers, GF etc. A part of me (the one that likes Myers) is glad that this will be the case. The other part of me (who has difficulties seeing almost anything on Autoheaven; not being colorblind or similar btw) hates it.
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