(Face)Camping being buffed instead of nerfed
Not only have you proposed zero changes to help survivors basekit against camping (and particularly solos and facecamping), but you’re actually going to be buffing it. 10% faster basekit attack cooldown, each generator taking 10 seconds longer to complete. Congratulations BHVR, we all thought it couldn’t get any worse for survivors. But you’ve really outdone yourself this time.
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The changes they made are to push killers away from camping and tunneling.
If killers are not willing to drop the camp/ tunnel gameplay and play the 12 hook program then buffs to survivors to help more with camping will be done.
And I'm sure there will be a massive nerf to camping if killers are not willing to change the way they play.
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What new incentive does a killer who could facecamp before have to leave a hook now? There’s less pressure on them to leave, and their popular gen defense perks are all but nerfed. What am I missing?
Oh sure, a massive camping nerf. Like how Bubba can’t sit in front of a hooked survivor to deny an unhook five years later?
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Increase hook state time by 10-15 seconds for first and second state and then see how it plays out and make changes from there.
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Slow the Entity progression up to 90% based on the killer’s proximity to the hook. Disabled during chase, not applicable to basement hooks or after the fifth generator is repaired. Non-mobile killer powers disabled within 12m of hooked survivors, unless a chase was started outside the radius.
Camaraderie now shows itself to other survivors in the lobby and in the trial. It works for both hook states on a pausable 60-second timer like Lucky Break. It’s faded on the other survivors’ HUDs while inactive, lit up while active.
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It is very concerning that they're putting all these anti-tunnel measures in the game when it won't stop you from getting facecamped if nobody can unhook (Bubba prime example), not to mention with increased gen times it just becomes more viable to do.
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Like I said the changes they made ( I'm sure you read them) are to push killers away from that type of gameplay.
Their give killer players a chance to change the way they play. If they don't want to change the way they play and refuse to interact with the survivors and continue to camp at 5 gens. Then the Devs will do something.
Yes it could be 3,6,9 months before camping is nerf in the ground or survivors are buff to deal with it. Who knows the DEVs could already have something ready sooner then later.
But you have to give killer players a chance to change.
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Technically, before, if the killer camp, yes, you can do 2-3 gen max, before the survivor camped die, now, you can do one or two maybe? So yes, it's probably better to camp now
And you can godly camp, with monstous shrine and scourge of pain
But, I want to say, we are going to wait to see if it is the case
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Again, I point you back to facecamping Bubba being a thing coming up on five years in September. DbD just turned six. Do I need to say any more?
You can’t possibly think facecamping gets disincentivized only by strengthening it?
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They should remove hook grabs. The killer then has less incentive to stay around and if they do, they'd have to down the rescuer. But at least that way the one on the hook actually has a chance to get unhooked.
Hook grabs = incentive to face-camp.
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I honestly thought when they announced "big changes to shake up the meta" the first thing they were gonna address was face camping by making all hooks act like PH cages when the killer is in too close proximity for too long - I guess even after playing for all these years I am still gullible and naive LMAO
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The killer can still camp, still hit those survivors, chasing them will stop any slowdown of the hooked survivor.
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Depends on the conditions I proposed earlier.
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Yes their will still be the one or two butt-heads that will camp because that's how they make themselves feel important. There nothing you can do about that, but one day camping is going to be discontinued and they will be the ones crying and I will be laughing.
But for the rest that claim they had to camp because gens get slammed out so fast or they were forced to camp. Now they have a chance to change the way they play and it's given to them.
But you have to give players a chance to change.
And I'm sure if no ones willing the change the DEVs have something already planned to deal with it.
With the buffs killers got there is no need to camp anymore so it's their choice if they continue to play like that there might be a big surprise coming their way.
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That's cool that they're making chase style gameplay more accessible and rewarding, but camping is still strong, possibly stronger, and much easier.
A game shouldn't require the killer to choose to play in a way that's fun for the other side. That should be the default gameplay loop! If they camp, they should lose and lose really badly! I'd go so far to say that if you hard facecamp the survivors should get an easy 4-man out because the strategy is so ineffective.
At the current moment, facecamping with most killers can get you a 2k with little effort and a 4k with survivors who throw to try and save their teammates. They made it take longer to do generators which gives chase killers more time to enjoy chases, but also makes camping more effective. They should do something that nerfs camping killers but doesn't effect chase killers.
Removing hook grabs and increasing the hook timer are both things that don't really effect chase killers. As a chase killer, I don't really care if they get the save in 5 seconds. In fact, that makes things easier for me as it gives them less time to do generators and gets me into a chase immediately. If they don't save for 70 seconds because they concentrate on generators, they've got a useless teammate who is stuck on the hook and I can camp at the 60 second mark to force the second stage or get an easy exchange.
Hook grabs are fun, but really only useful as a crutch for killers. The main problem is that a hook grab results in now camping two survivors.
Is there an argument for why camping is a good thing that a killer should do? I've mostly just heard, "It's required for the killer to win," and "I have no choice," which um... are less than convincing.
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I dislike camping I never camped even when I could of I don't do it. Camping is not rewarding to me, but I'm sure to the ones that do it makes them feel like a skilled killer or whatever high they get from it. Camping to me it's crap it's a bum move that player is not skilled it's a cheap win.
Don't camp, take the loss practice learn from your mistakes play better.
The Devs know what they have done and I'm sure they have something ready if every match the killer is doing nothing but camping. This update is not live yet it goes to the PTB next week sometimes you have to see how things play out.
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It's an oversight hopefully, if the update goes to live the way it is described in the dev update, this game will be in serious trouble. Even the anti-tunneling buffs that survivors got are pretty laughable, 5 seconds is almost nothing, it needs to be at least 12 seconds.
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This is what I do too. For me, I would play a mix of survivor and killer and I would play survivor both solo and with friends. I mostly don't play survivor solo anymore and don't play it as much when playing with friends either. This is mostly because we have to wait 5 minutes to get into a match with a killer who then gets a down at 5 gens and starts hard facecamping.
When you're playing with friends, it's really disheartening and upsetting to just have no ability to counter that playstyle and for it to be outright encouraged by the developers.
So when I play killer, I don't camp even at endgame. I'd rather take the loss and have MMR adjust my rating appropriately. These changes seem to be more aimed at people playing killer who want to win without actually trying and want to get at least one pity kill every match regardless of their skill.
I think for killers like us, the change will be overall positive for both sides. I'd just like to see a change that makes it actively less rewarding for the killers who play like that and make playing survivor miserable.
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None of the changes they made de incentivize camping. The value of camping comes from making it difficult for the unhooker to unhook successfully and still giving the killer value when they manage to do in the form of a trade.
The changes they have made completely incentivize camping, the only thing they have decenticized is tunelling.
For one, the fact that gens take longer means it is much more difficult for a team to punish camping.
In addition to that many of the perks which rewarded a killer for leaving the hook have been heavily nerfed and on top of that many perks which reward the killer for staying at the hook got by with only glancing nerfs or no nerfs at all.
Deadlock is unchanged. NOED can still be used to get a free down at the end game, corrupt still helps give you a strong early game so survivors can't get too much progress for you to camp someone out by the time you've gotten your first hook. Pain res is still just as good when using it to camp. Campers didn't care about the information anyways. They just want the remote pressure.
Killer powers like bubba and trickster who can camp and you can basically do nothing to stop it are unchanged.
Killer powers that put out remote pressure like artist and freddy which allow you to slow gens in combination with dead mans switch are unchanged.
And on top of that the fact that the basic hit CD is 2.7 seconds now basically gurantees trades at the hook if a survivor goes for it.
The base kit BT changes do not help with camping. You have to actually successfully unhook someone without just getting slapped on the hook yourself for those to matter.
The devs need to increase the hook timer.
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Honestly blame the player base for what camping is now not the DEVs.
Killer mains brainwashing killer players into using it all the time especially at 5 gens. Worshipping the dog ######### style of gameplay.
Again blame the community for what camping is and what it has become
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As I proceed to just sit on a gen and rush it because I know we have more hook time and can just leave them hanging there for longer...lol
See how that turns out?
Doing what you want causes the exact same problem you are disliking but in reverse.
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Okay so the players who face camp already from the beginning at 5 gens are going to do it no matter what. That's on the player not the devs.
Thw changes to killer are meant to help get more killers back into the game, help weaker ones a better chance to get surviors.
Surviors got built in borrowed time and even got more time with the orginal perk. You still can use DS, unbreakable and any exhaustion perk you have to get away from a face camper during that borrowed time.
I'm not encouraging or saying it's okay to face camp or anything like that. I'm just saying face campers are always going to face camp you even if they're attacks are even faster and they get built in bbq bonus bp. Why? Because it's a human playing the game. There are always going to be players trying to make the other side not have fun. That goes for killers and surviors.
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I blame both.
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That's um good? You've left your teammate on the hook where they're doing nothing. The generator you're doing takes longer to do so you get less done because you're down a teammate. The killer is pressuring one or two of your other teammates who therefore aren't doing generators. If you then do this for too long, the killer has already hooked a second teammate and can now pressure the first into second stage.
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If you leave someone on the hook for an extended period of time I'll just go back and proxy camp for guaranteed stage 2 or a trade... not to mention the time that person spends on the hook the game is a 3v1.
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You're missing the discrepancy in objective times between the sides. That is more efficient for the survivors. That second survivor just pre drops and you lose 2 gens for only 1 hook state.
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And now you just lost another gen from doing that. 3 gens for 2 hooks states is not a good deal for you.
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If Killers continue to camp, just do gens and leave. Killers sitting at hooks and face camping is honestly a terrible strategy, as they'll still get gen rushed and lose. If you're on the hook, being camped, be a team.player and buy your team some extra time by not immediately trying to suicide on hook. Delay the inevitable so the killer doesn't have any extra time to look for people, and gensget done in quick succession. Even with gens taking 90 seconds now, your team should easily blast through 3 gens in this situation.
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The funny part here is that you guys complains without testing it... And by the way they buff survivors a little more than Killers so i don t see the issue here... Atleast for now...
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Face camping will be addressed anyway, and since usual chases are buffed significantly, camping would be less feasible.
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Source? They allegedly addressed “camping” with this developer update.. yet I see nothing in the survivor basekit or perk changes that actually do.
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When a survivor is hit within a set distance of a hook, say 8 meters that survivor gains an extra health state, similar to mettle of man. This means survivors in solo Q won't be forced to trade hooks but can actually get hit, unhook then get hit again and both the survivors get too leave. Combine this with basekit proper BT, 12 seconds and remove killers ability to grab survivors unhooking. Won't fix it, but would be a massive improvement.
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I'm pretty concerned that 90 second gen times is an inadvertent buff to camping. The devs seem like they had their finger on the pulse of their game with most of the proposed changes in the update, and they certainly addressed tunneling very well in my opinion. But I feel like they lumped camping and tunneling together as the same problem, and it's not. What's worse, all the post-hooking information perks were nerfed. BBQ and Chili gives you no bloodpoints now, Scourge Hook Pain Resonance doesn't blow up the generator anymore, so you might struggle to figure out where you should head next. Even Tinkerer only prompting once per gen hurts. It's actually going to be pretty attractive to hang around the hook and see if you can't deal some damage to the rescuers, knowing they can't pressure the gens as much while you do. I feel at the very least they need to extend hang time for survivors by 5 seconds per stage in order to offset the 10 seconds more it takes to do the generators. Camping itself needs it's own solution in the long run, whether it's slowing or pausing the timer for the hooked survivor, or perks like Deadlock not activating/deactivating if your within so many meters of a hooked survivor. Whatever they do, this update has restored some of my confidence that the devs are paying attention, and big problems will eventually be addressed.
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The developers are the ones that left it in the game. If the developers removed it from the game, players wouldn't exploit it. There's always someone that will exploit an exploit.
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Camping was the orginal way to get sacrifices. Before a playable tutorial there was a video of a trapper on old coldwind farm who caught a meg and camped her to death. Do with what you will with this information.
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Exactly. A smart survivor understands that a hooked survivor means there's one survivor less doing gens and one survivor less who can heal other teammates. And someone will still have to go for a save. You don't win anything from this strategy as survivor, you only lose.
I think DEVs should just make hook stages longer, by about 25-30%. It's not gonna hurt non-camping killers in any way. In 90% of games there won't be any difference, survivors will still rush to the hook to save teammates. In 95% of all games, even in solo, as soon as I'm hooked at least 1 survivor goes to rescue me. But it's gonna hurt hard campers, ideally they should get at most 1 survivor if they decide to camp.
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Well. It come and goes. It doesn't mean that what was originally intended couldn't be recanted later on. If we go down that road, there was even a loading screen tip, now removed, that suggested hooking in shack basement and then trapping all entrances. The devs didn't have a very clear view at the beginning of what was enjoyable in this game (getting camped is not, I don't think that's contentious). Indeed, later they moved in the opposite direction when they experimented with the hook timer pausing, which they abandoned.
As for why the devs are doing what they're doing in this update? I believe they genuinely don't understand all the ramifications of certain things they do and how the game plays. Otherwise, they would've never talked about camping in the update, only tunneling. And even about tunneling, they nuked DS for no reason, made OTR and... that's a story for another time.
Maybe they think that a system of incentives will discourage camping, in the form of longer gens and shorter chases. Which buffs non-campers but also campers, which is the crux of the matter and where the concept fails. We've already been there with Deathgarden. Discouraging a strategy does nothing if you can just win anyway with less effort by adopting said strategy.
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I find it absolutely bizarre they had a section in the patch notes labeled camping and tunneling and only kind of addressed tunneling. Nothing in there about camping at all.
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You are telling me basekit BT does not help with Camping? You are kidding me.
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No, it doesn't. BT/endurance helps combat tunneling - going for someone who just got off hook. Camping involves killers preventing an unhook to begin with. See the difference?
Survivors have two perks to combat camping right now: Kindred, and Camaraderie (Kinship). Kindred only provides information that SWF already has; Camaraderie is such garbage it isn't worth utilizing. If it were buffed to work how I suggested earlier in this thread, then survivors could have a decent anti-camp perk. But right now, the options are very poor. When there needs to be base kit measures to discourage it in the first place.
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Knowing that BT is basekit means that if you have two health states, you should be able to outplay the killer. (When dealing with face-camping)
It's only an issue if you go for the hook save while injured.
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Five second base kit BT. Is that enough time to reasonably reach a tile from every hook? Don't think so. OTR will be a necessity for every survivor.
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There's a 5 second haste effect too.
Off the Record gives insane value right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see it ran just because it's insanely strong.
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5 seconds is not enough time. Since every killer knows BT is basekit and is 5 seconds long, they will just do a count of 5 and re-down the survivor.
Making BT basekit is a nerf to BT because every killer knows every survivor has BT, so they will always do a 5 count and down a survivor, instead of hitting the survivor on the off-chance they don't have BT.
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How does this fix oni? or hillbilly? or myers? or leatherface? or Trapper? Or doctor? or Huntress? Or Hag? How does this fix basement? Or more importantly, There not a tile every 5 seconds? Let's say there is, let's say there is pallet within 5 meters. The pallet will need to be a strong enough loop to counter most killers. Of course any anti loop killer (artist, freddy, clown) will be able to easily work around that. Of course this doesn't even address the fact that t now that killers have faster pallet breaking speeds, and faster hit animations, not only are unsafe pallets even more unsafe, but now even by developers own admission this makes hook trading essentially required. Even with the 5 second BT even if you do get away the killer will just down the unhooker and hook them, fixing nothing.
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But they buffed it... They didn't even try to fix it, they buffed camping. Camping was already extremely viable and now it is by far the most effective way to play killer. Assuming you can get a down before 2 gens (which let's be honest is not too hard and if you are struggling Corupt still work exactly the same) throw on dead lock, and if you are really want to be certain (no way out). Assuming you have the basic competence to camp. Either grab the unhooker, down the unhooker and just follow behind the unhooked waiting for... 5 seconds. There actually isn't enough time to do the gens. Now its even harder with the extra 50 seconds.
These changes wee made on he assumption that killers will have integrity ad not abuse this. That is not good design.
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The timer starts running while still in the animation (same as live version). So, it's not actually 5 sec. I'll just throw that in here.
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