DS doesn't need a skill-check anymore and should trigger after both unhooks
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Killers usually tunnel the survivor that stabbed them after the second unhook so it wouldn't make a difference if killers decided to hard camp them anyway.
You do realize why people want it to be used twice right? It doesn't allow survivors to progress the game until that timer wears off and they've already made it useless at end-game (which is understandable) therefore, people are asking for changes to make it more appealing because Off the Record is looking really promising right now.
Killers shouldn't be scared of it being used more than once unless that killer wants to be stabbed twice. It's supposed to be an anti-tunnel perk.
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Despite the irony around it, have u failed to notice this update is a "meta shake up"? They gutted every meta perk and replaced them with others. U are asking for a nerfed meta perk to get even more meta while in the same time have another soon to be meta perk stack with it. Why are ppl allowed to post such dumb ideas with no basis on reality? Like ######### man u want to get chased, get hit, use dh, get downed, get hooked and unhooked, have bt, have otr, have ds, use otr, use dh, get downed, use ds, and then get downed again and then repeat the same exact sequence 1 more time. Not even factoring bodyblocking and any loops u choose to use. How can u see this massive time waste for killer and say, Oh yes lad that seems fair and totally not broken. Fcking daydreamers out here
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Killers usually tunnel the survivor that stabbed them after the second unhook so it wouldn't make a difference if killers decided to hard camp them anyway.
Sometimes I watch streamers, and I get really annoyed when I see them do this:
Match 1, they get stabbed by DS:
streamer: You used your DS, now I can tunnel you out!
Match 2, they pick someone up and don't get stabbed by DS:
streamer: Well, if you didn't want to get tunneled out you should've brought DS.
At least if DS activates twice, the first scenario will require more time expended by the killer. Either they hard camp the hook for 60 seconds, or they chase the survivor down again and either eat a 2nd DS or wait another 60 seconds before putting the survivor back on the hook.
I don't have extreme feelings about DS activating twice, that's just an observation.
This next part is for everyone who thinks DS needs a tiny skill check:
I can't help but feel really spurned by BHVR at all the times I go back on the hook because I don't have DS. I didn't not bring DS because I wanted to be tunneled out. I didn't bring DS because BHVR ported DbD to console without the proper follow-through. There's nothing that can be done about controller users being easier targets, but not having access to DS to help us when we are targeted Just. Freaking. Sucks. Anyone who thinks the tiny skill check is fine does not understand how double-fudged some console players are.
It doesn't just screw us over, either, it screws over the entire team. Everyone who plays survivor should keep that in mind. We can't hug objects as well in chases and we can't look behind us as easily. We know we go down quicker and a lot of us can't run DS to buy a little more time, but your queues are often longer if you turn off cross-play to avoid us, and in the future turning off cross-play will also disable the BP bonus that's replacing BBQ/WGLF.
Maybe OTR will go live in its ridiculously OP state, in which case DS won't be as valuable, though I might continue to complain about this skill check for the simple fact that the game should work the same across all platforms whether or not the perk is meta.
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I'm 100% in agreement with DS getting two uses per match and getting rid of the skill checks with DS deactivating in end game. If someone 59 second DS's me they just wasted close to a minute to stun me for a few seconds; thus taking the survivor out of doing anything to help their team win for the majority of it.
BHVR also wants to disincentivize tunneling and camping and two uses would help. If you're worried about it, slug the survivor and chase the unhooker. That way, three sets of hands are for sure off gens (one doing a pick up, one slugged and one in chase).
That way, it's a more satisfying gaming experience for everyone and BHVR's job is to make the game entertaining for everyone; not just the people in one of the roles.
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Players really are against skillcheks huh!? First get rid of Ruin for punishing people who HATE skillchecks, now people want DS to be autoamtic cause skillchecks bruh... Yeah just make everything automatic. next you want no Skillchecks vs Jigsaw boxes or Madness, then no skillchecks when healing or when using BNPs so that all you do is hold M1 and nothing else...
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Just make the skill check bigger and revert the stun duration back to 5 seconds.
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No I have not failed to see that this upcoming update is a meta shake-up. I am fully aware of their plans but that doesn't mean all of their ideas are good.
It seems like you have failed to see why people want these specific buffs for DS. Have you ever wondered WHY people ran DS to begin with and FYI this ain't a "dumb idea" as you claim lol. Your example proves what tunnelers deserve which is the point of the perk.
This is about DS. Educate yourself on why people want the skillcheck removed or changed.
Edit: Typo
Post edited by Mazoobi on0 -
2 use is OP, it should stay at 5 seconds because 3 is useless, without the skillcheck and only one use, it's good enough
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they just need to leave ds alone I hope the changes for it don't go through
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That's an observation I've noticed too! It's such a rinse and repeat process during killer streams. It gets infuriating because whenever I rewatch a streamer's stream after facing them, they just boast how my teammates don't have DS and know that they are easy targets for tunneling.
I 100% support your console rant because it's so true! I have experience in the game, but the experience can only go so far if my platform wants to fudge me up at times. I wanted to save money for a PC but it's really hard during these times especially while I'm in college.
Thank you and exactly!
DS's limitations prevent survivors from doing anything productive and there are still effective ways to counter DS.
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How is two uses OP? The killer already gets notified when DS procs, so would only be punished for reckless, hardcore tunneling the second time. We’re talking about a DS that now deactivates after 60 seconds or progressing the game - whichever comes first.
Nah, I hope not. The end game change is fair, but it definitely needs more bite to make up for it. Also agree with others on removing the skill check. It has enough deactivation conditions as it is, and originates from a time the perk could be used on any carry.
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I like the first suggestion a lot, actually. Not a fan of the second at all. Second chance perks shouldn't give third chances.
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DS is literally the most counterplayable perk. In order to get hit with it, you need to chase down a target that has just been unhooked, down them within a minute, without them doing anything to help the survivors, and then you need to pick them up.
So you have the following counterplay options:
1) Go for someone else.
2) Stalk them until they do something that disables DS.
3) Don't press spacebar.
DS requires an astronomical amount of work from the killer to fire. What you are arguing here is that the killer has zero accountability, and should be able to hard tunnel into a build with two or three anti-tunnel perks, without being punished.
Guess what? 90% of your problem goes away if you just go for the unhooker, instead of the unhooked.
Now, OTR is absolutely worse for both killer and survivor gameplay, but DS deserved some serious buffs to offset the EGC nerf. It's one of the worst perks in the game already, and it's up for a double nerf. There'll be zero reason to run it, even if OTR didn't exist.
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The only reason I would disagree with 2 uses is combined with OTR the optimal way to play after being unhooked would be get your endurance stack from unhooking -> Zoom to killer asap -> bodyblock and be as annoying as possible with OTR endurance + 1 health state -> DS killer if they pick you up.
It reminds me of the old 'get DS'd or the survivor unbreakables.' Getting up in the killers face should be risky and 2 time DS encourages being annoying more than anything else. Other than the offensive part of it though I think 2 DS for anti tunnel makes sense.
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Right! It definitely needs a bit more bite now because I really don't think it deserves to be in a trash bin. The two mentioned proposals could help with that if BHVR ever considered them or notices this thread.
Thanks for understanding too.
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It's a "second chance" perk that has enough deactivation conditions to warrant itself to be used twice. There are ways to circumvent DS so the killer is basically allowing survivors to have a second or third chance by intentionally tunneling.
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DS should trigger off both unhooks, regain its five second stun, the skillcheck should be made extremely easy, and then OTR's rework should be scrapped.
OTR is less healthy as an anti-tunnel design than DS. For survivors, because the innate BT can now allow killers to disable OTR (supposed to be anti-tunnel) by tunnelling hard enough. For killers, because OTR is much more effective when used offensively to bodyblock. You bodyblock with DS, you get slugged. You bodyblock with OTR, you can just run off.
It's literally worse for everyone, which is an achievement in and of itself.
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Inconceivable!
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That's not a good enough reason for it to be able to be used twice. Second chance perks aren't for third chances, even if the problem isn't you.
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In DS' case, it has enough reasons to work twice now. It's not because people want a free escape, it's because killers will know that those who used DS are easy tunneling targets. Once you stab the killer, they have no reason to go after the unhooker because the killer knows that the DS has been used thus being counterintuitive to its goal of being an anti-tunneling perk.
It's an avoidable perk unless you intentionally tunnel. A killer needs to put in the effort for DS to work anyway so they should always be affected by the perk even if its classified as a second chance perk.
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I think people want changes like this because it makes the perk objectively stronger than it was when it was 5s. Just make it 5s and remove the skillcheck, or make it much larger so you can't miss it anyway because newer players running it might miss it, and newer players are the ones who need it most.
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No it doesn't. Simple as.
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if they removed it you would not be able to "save" ds for later. i guess having two ds uses will be too strong when multiple survivors run it. I might try the 3 second version first but i already think its too short time, it might be enough to escape near pallets or windows but not in the open like the one we have now.
DS should not turn off if you miss an skill check, thats my opinion. Having ds every unhook will be too much
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Ok then explain yourself because you really haven't been doing that.
Based on what you've been saying, a survivor who can't provide progress for the team shouldn't be able to punish killers multiple times who intentionally tunnel them despite there being ways to go around the perk... *news flash* just don't tunnel and DS is non-existent.
If you need help understanding my point, then read all of the others who agree with me because there's a lot of sense of reasoning for why we are demanding these changes.
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I've already explained myself. Second chance perks are second chance. Not second and third chance.
I'm quite straightforward in this. Nothing you've said means that DS should be changed. The reason why the changes to killer are happening is because they needed to be buffed. There's nothing at all that says survivors need to be changed to be "compensated" because killers are being buffed. Just because you don't like that killers are getting stronger doesn't mean they have to do anything to survivors to change them.
The entire premise of your/these changes to DS is to make it more "fair" since killers get all these buffs. But you've not actually provided any reason other than "well killers get buffs so survivors should automatically get buffs". No. That's not how that works. Killers are getting buffed for a reason. That reason doesn't mean we then need to buff survivors. At all, in fact.
Oh and to be clear, I have well over 2200 hours, and the vast majority is survivor, not killer, tho I do have my killer faves. So this isn't some new rando killer main who's just whining. I know my #########.
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I'm contemplating the two uses for DS. I have a few reservations about locker-jump and the ridiculous situation that can happen with it (killer facing the survivor for whatever reason has to eat it or go away), but on principle I don't see a problem having it always on.
Removing the skill check ... yes, it makes sense. That last argument of yours sells it neatly IMHO.
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Doesnt matter. The perk is dead. Otr will replace it in 99,99999% of matches
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I wouldn't mind since like 95% of the time they hit the skill check anyway. I'm guessing they just don't want a 'free yourself stun' that's fully automatic.
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These changes are based on the new intentions for the perk. Never once did I say in OP that these changes are to compensate for the new killer buffs. Reread my thread.
Your whole premise is "DS is a second chance perk therefore it must follow this made-up rule that it can only work once". That's been your entire sense of reasoning. I'm sure you haven't fully grasped the situation that the perk is in right now. DS could be bent for that "rule" because of its nerfs and limitations. DS does not have a good fighting chance in the upcoming patch and it looks like reckless tunneling could be done so much easier. It appears you're okay with that so I shouldn't really be engaging with you any further because I'm trying to propose really good ideas, not force people to change their minds.
I have well over 4600 hours with a good fair balance between both roles so I also know what I'm talking about.
I'd like to note that these changes wouldn't even make the perk busted or OP in any way, it'd just make the perk consistent for all players and really emphasize it's job.
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If I recall correctly the 3 second stun was it's original duration before it was buffed to 5 seconds due to enduring working on it like it would pallets before that interaction was removed.
That said, I do not know why they reverted it back to 3 second after several years.
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Revert to 5 and also remove skillchecks, it'll still be strong, just not overused.
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Still no.
Specifically - "That's been your entire sense of reasoning. I'm sure you haven't fully grasped the situation that the perk is in right now. DS could be bent for that "rule" because of its nerfs and limitations."
You say right here "could be bent", which means even you know there's not really any reason to do so other than "perk was nerfed too hard". That was the literal point.
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The skillchecks purpose and only purpose is to make it unaccessible to new players,who also play where most hardcore tunnels are.
The stun is a guarantee against any competent player.I genuinely can't remember the last time I missed my DS and this perk is in all my builds.
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agreed
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Alrighty, I'll give you that one.
Sure I'm biased; I like DS a lot. Why? Because it's a solid "solution" to the tunneling issue which the community should be damn well aware of at this point. Why do you think there was an uproar when DS and Self-Care were nerfed? Two perks that were nerfed just because they were considered meta. And yes, they were indeed "nerfed too hard".
If BHVR wants to stubbornly continue their wacky logic to adjust the game despite core issues still existing then of course people such as myself will be upset. Sure, let's nerf the best answer to tunneling and move it to Off the Record... what?
Anyways, I'm pretty sure I made my point(s) very clear to the public which thankfully got enough attention. I wish to no longer repeat myself.
EDIT: Just because it was BHVR's point to nerf DS & Self Care hard bc they were meta doesn't make it a good idea. The only nerf that was fine for DS was the end-game collapse interaction but that's why these proposals are to help the perk gain some ground again.
Post edited by Mazoobi on0 -
Your first point supports why the skill check should be removed or adjusted for all players.
Also, I'd like to add that console players do exist so even with experience, the platform can backfire your chance of hitting the skill check. I currently have 4688 hours on xbox and hitting that skill check is not as consistent as people think.
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