Game health suggestions: Unhooking and camping, possible fixes (serious topic)
Got 2k hours and I main whatever, whenever I feel like it...
In this discussion im not talking much about tunneling, just annoyances regarding unhooking.
I think currently, there are various unhooking affecting perks, and other interactions that makes the game unfun, weird and boring.
Im simply going to be naming the things that i believe are the most proplematic. However the suggestions that im giving to (hopefully) fix them may not be definitive. The proplem with these is the RNG factor that could largely screw or over-benefit one or the other side.
Id like you to give your own thoughts and adding/changing your own variables, if you think my suggestion causes more proplems and whether you believe you have a better idea.
I would also like to hear if any Behavior representative has something to say on the topic.
Keep the discussion on topic and serious.
-- 1. Unhook grab
Proplem(s):
In a scenario where a weaker killer (or any really) is standing right in front of the hook, waiting for someone else to unhook the hooked player, the killer may try to grab a survivor to stop the unhooking and then gaining 2 downed/hooked survivors whilest doing basicly nothing.
As for the unhooker, its a rather immersion breaking and unfun to bait out the grab just in order to keep the game going. In solo plays this could add up, because no one knows what everyones intentions are.
Its really a 50/50 who benefits in this situation and it can statistically speaking make all killers equal. So, yes, a clown is the same as playing the blight because both have the ability to insta down on black/red all-in roulette grab. But doesnt that just sound wrong?
Possible fix:
Just remove unhook grabbing, the same thing was done to hatch grabs and it made the game much better. It would also indirectly benefit all killers, because theid know hte unhook grabs cant be done, so they would go straight for m1s, saving time.
-- 2. Killer powers near hooks
# Proplem(s):
Some killer powers can just outright turn the situation to be more profitable to killers, because of being able to do 2 hits in quick succession, or by exposure(1 hit down).
Killers such as: Cannibal, Huntress, Ghostface(depends), Myers(depends), Clown(addon), Hillbilly, Trapper(depends) and so on. By "depends" I thinks its very situational and random whether they get their power to work.
# Possible fix:
What im thinking of is a new status effect, that removes killer powers for the duration. Think could possibly effect all characters or just those with strenghts in unhooking situations.
Demonstation: When within X meters of a hooker survivor, gain the Y status effect. The Y status effect lasts for Z seconds after out of range or unhooked.
Theres a lot of if and if elses (java coding talk), that could be added like: Is the killer on the same level, line of sight, killer power, etc.
Edit: As noted such effect could be abused by both and could be hard to implement, therefore in that case im suggesting changing the powers to weaker versions. Like the cannibal´s chainsaw, cant insta down but can do some other effects, etc...
-- 3. Basement
# Proplem(s):
For the most part I dont have a proplem with the basement EXCEPT for the 1 way in an out staircase. A killer has some area-control and can sandbag the staircase. With the new borrowed time base-kit that gives only 6 seconds, there isnt much time to get out. While sometimes basement are at the best pallets, thats not always the case, keep in mind, the survivor first has to get out of the basement to work on getting away, and then he has to hope that someone didnt already destroy it. Some buildings dont even have pallets. Windows are mostly no go because of vault grabs.
# Possible fix:
A. Give basements 2 ways to go in and out. This could give another infinite loops or such if placed wrongly, but killer hen could benefit from aura-reading, haste, and while the survivor is going thru the basement, he disbenefits from from things like blindness, negative haste, etc...
B. Remove basements completely and put basement-hooks(quad-hooks) by a landmark(just inside a shack, on top-floor of the coal tower, in the kitchen of hillbillys house, etc)
-- 4. Borrowed time
# Proplem(s):
Borrowed time is just a strange perk that only affects the one who is on the hook, but given by the unhooker. This could be very discouraging for the one getting unhooked or entire team when, "that meg" isnt using borrowed. If borrowed time is a self-protecting perk, then it would courage using it, and it would be only you to blame if you didnt take bt to protect yourself. At least then, "that meg" isnt completely ######### someone else over...
I feel as if endurance effect should be given by default or MAYBE even make the unhooked unsandbaggable/unhittable for a second so the killer can concentrate on the unhooker.
# Possible fix:
Give endurance by default to unhooked(unaffected by borrowed time by any means), and MAYBE as an possible extra, give the unhooked unsandbaggable/unhittable status effect momentarily.
As for borrowed time...
A. If hit or downed while doing the unhooking, youll still unhook the survivor by force
B. If injured while unhooking a survivor, you gain the endurance effect as unhooker.
C. Gain the endurance effect when getting unhooked. (This is what im primarily aiming for)
There are many more possibilities...
In the latest PTB, they wanted to increase the duration of endurance, but only if the unhooker is using borrowed time, which I feel is ridiculous. What if the one being unhooked has borrowed time to their own endurance effect gets enhanced? This way the unhooked can react prematuraly too.
Comments
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I agree, let's nerf Noed as well, and maybe the 5 second unhook bonus should apply to both the hooker and the unhooker? An idea is to give the unhooker BT as soon as they begin hooking, it's kind of unfair how the killer can camp hook and get an easy trade, if the survivor managed to get to the hook without being damaged they should be rewarded.
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So basically, Nerf Killers and give them zero compensation for terrible nerf ideas.
Unhook Grabs - Needed to be able to punish overzealous, altruistic survivors who think they can just unhook in the killer's face without consequences. Going for unsafe hooks ? Why should you be rewarded for that by being 100% immune to being grabbed ?
Killer Powers Near Hooks - Again, you want to take away the killer's ability to punish players who unhook in their face. Terrible idea that's been suggested alot on these forums. Let's take away the survivor's ability to do gens every time somone is hooked. Does that sound fair to you ? Punishing survivors for doing their job ? Didn't think so. Another awful idea to nerf killers for no reason.
Basement - High risk area for survivors to go for rescues. Easy area for killers to protect. Nothing wrong with this area. It's been a staple since the beginning and has no reason to be gutted and removed just to make everything even easier for survivors. Survivors have looping, second chances, etc. Killers have Basement hooks. Not equal, but still something killers can use to their advantage.
Borrowed Time - No. Just... no. The unhooker does not deserve to get a free endurance effect for rescuing their teammates. Their reward is the rescue itself, which is always a risky play, as it should be. There are 4 survivors to 1 killer. Two of you do not need a guaranteed endurance effect to waste the killer's time even more than survivors already do.
None of these changes are good ideas. These would only serve to punish the killers player for simply doing their job. Patrolling gens and hooks. You want to take away what little power killers have in these scenarios and that is a terrible idea. Survivors would risk nothing with your proposed changes, which goes against the risk factor the game is meant to have. You make risky plays, you risk the killer getting you. Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
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Where's the vote down button?
You missed the boat over and over again. The devs talked about the basement at length in 2016 and the part that makes it scary is that there is one way in.
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Grabs barely work at times and survivors can easily cancel unhooks to avoid grabs, so I have no real opinion towards removing grabs.
Restricting the ability to use your power around hooks not only feels bad to play, but often is an unnecessary restriction as killers can just step far enough way to use their power while getting punished on multi-level maps if they end up chasing a survivor under/over a hooked survivor. I like things such as Dredge not being able to teleport to lockers nearby a hooked survivor, but still being able to use his power around the hook as it doesn't directly hinder the feel of the killer. I rather dislike Artist not being able to place crows close to the hook, because it gets really frustrating trying to find the right spot to put the crows just to scout after a hook. It doesn't accomplish much besides adding extra clunkiness to the power.
The basement is meant to be a strong place to defend hooks. The basement is generally near strong tiles so it's a trade off. You risk going into the basement to take advantage of the strong tiles nearby. It's the only natively strong hook area for killers on every map.
I'm not sure why you dislike BT. Some perks exist to improve your ability to be altruistic. Some perks exist to improve your own survivability. If you want safer unhooks, desperate measures and no one left behind both increase unhook speed. BT does not need to be changed to make it safer for you to unhook another survivor.
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BT is too necessary to have and again it only helps the unhooked rather than the unhooker(who has the perk). Basicly your putting trust into other players in hopes for your own survival, in a situation where getting downed a second time could risk a lot of progress AND can make the game more unbearable for the person who might have indeed have altruistic perks but the savior didnt, basicly screwing you over. It also gives more insentive to killers to just go for easy hooks and further slow down everything. Given that players dont think alike and some might just leave when someone doesnt have something they desperately need (BT), theyd just ######### and then we really cant even tell if a killer is good statistically because someone just left. Honestly this could be said about a lot of perks (lightborn,ds, COH) but i think BT is a really weird and crucial one.
I didnt say removing all killer powers, but definitely the ones that benefit from consecutive hits(huntress,trickster) or insta downs(cannibal, clown). I DONT mind hags, dredges or Executioner for now at least.
As for the multilevel proplem I cant say much but you really have to experiment with these things, maybe have line of sight requirement or on-the-same-level requirement. Theres a lot of ifs and if elses you could add until it could be near perfection.
In a situation where you cant communicate and everyone doing their own things. Basement saves can be difficult to pull off. AGAIN we can experiment with this stuff, we have the tecnhology (PTBs, beta settings). We could also add aura reading for killers, when someone is in the basement, so they can see which way their coming out or going in.
Unhook grabs, you either take 2 hits to save someone, or you just go down and now there is 2 players down. Experiment with it in custom games. This is something that is SO SMALL and so easy to test in PTBs if devs would use their time and people cared.
Yes, sure players can just stop the unhook action, but then theres that ankward moment where as a survivor you have to fear the hand rather than the weapon.
Risks have to be taken, something could be lost and made worse. But in the long run we can then see where killers weaknesses arise and then we make the universally stronger. I dont want to make killers pin-pushers, but thats the kind of cul-de-sac we are at currently.
You mentioned "These would only serve to punish the killers player for simply doing their job. Patrolling gens and hooks. You want to take away what little power killers have in these scenarios and that is a terrible idea." Patrolling gens and hooks sounds great but not just standing by the hook. I want to give them more action.
Didnt mention anything about noed, but your suggestion for BT sounds good. It gives personal and altruistic insentive to use it. Both parties benefit, however this could give survivors too easy ways out of a bad situation, given both get endurance. Something that should be further experimented.
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response to 1.: I'd like that to go onto a PTB and test it out myself. Just saying that "it'll make the game much healthier like the hatch grab" is a strecth. Hatch grabbing got removed because it let to standing still for possibly hours. Hook grabbing is not hours as the survivor eventually dies. Sure it might be frustrating for the other survivors and the hooked survivor BUT not being able to hook grab would lead to VERY safe unhooks which might be frustrating to killers. Testing this is the best way to see if you re right or wrong
response to 2.: this has been propsed for the 1 billionth time now. The problem with that is always the same: survivors can abuse this so much it is unreal. Imagine being a Cannibal and the survivors force you to stay near hook and suddenly your chainsaw just does not work anymore. You get punished for survivors playing dumb. Simply disabling abilities near hook just does not work. The ones that do get disabled are the ones that can prevent the survivors from unhooking completely such as bodyblocking with charlotte and victor while playing victor, traps underneath and right next to the hooked person, bird of artist blocking paths and instantly downing you combined with a basic attack etc. etc.
response to 3.: the basement is designed to be horrible for survivors. It should not be good for survivors. it should be in the killers favor. Bodyblocking as the killer should never completely lock you in as the basement stairs are wide enough to go around them. This is just a bad take imo. Sure some killers are way better with the basement than others but the basement is a killer-sided mechanic. It should not be abusable but it also should not be safely enetered by survivors.
respone to 4: making survivors untargetable in any way shape or form is dumb. You get I-frames during the unhook animation, you should not get more. also base kit 5 second bt is gonna be added anyways so imma just ignore that point.
Giving the unhooker bt... no... that was the first iteration of BT when it got released. that perk was the bane of everyone s existance. Not only could you not tunnel you also could not kill the unhooker. this gave free instant escapes when the exit gates were opened. Forcing the unhook also sounds kinda clunky.
IMO all your ideas just shift the problem. Solving problems by creating new ones is not a good way to fix problem. You dont fix a bucket with a hole by cutting a new hole into it and using that spare material to fix the old one.
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An inanimate bucket neither fixes itself. Fixing it with some duck tape from local store doesnt fix it completely, but could make it usable in other cases. Whatever...
- Sure the hatch grabbing was much more different that unhook grabs, it would lead to really boring standabouts and such where neither player wanted to give away their own victory. With the recent changes to basic attacks and cooldowns in the PTB, I dont see the survivor unhooking getting that far away from the hook, this would only affect if the survivor unhooking is not injured while unhooking. But at least it doesnt cause both survivors to lose their changes at possibly winning the game or losing hook states and further giving killer power by a singular dumb game mechanic.
- And its going to be proposed over and over again, because its a real proplem. Your on the hook, the cannibal is right there, what the hell are you meant to do. Give your life away because your not earning anything from staying in the game anymore, your just playing with randoms so you dont care. The cannibal still has his power outside of hooks. The proplem with cannibal is that he really has only just 1 power that greatly benefits in survivors being close to each other, but why? Cant he have some other power along with the chainsaw? Also I believe I did mention that killer that can do consecutive attack or instant downs are the bigger proplem, not the rest.
- Bodyblocking doesnt completely keep the survivors in sure, but yet it does some. If currently survivors are give base 5 or 6 secs of endurance, you dont have to do much bodyblocking to down. The basement is supposed to be in killers favor but just how much? It doesnt have pallets or windows, so survivor cant just run down there and loop a killer I guess around the quad hooks or whatever. Like in my previous comment I was possible suggesting buffs to killers while in the basement(aura reading mainly, but there can be more or less)
- The I-frames shouldnt even exist so that the killer doesnt lose time by hitting the wrong one. Also please tell me more as to why partial invulnerability shouldnt exist. As for BT, you can make different iterations for it and other variables, it may not have to be about unhooking, use your imagination. However the old BT might have proven that giving both endurance wasnt such a great idea so I do somewhat agree.
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oh you actually responded to my bucket analogy lmao.
- i was never against the idea, I just said why I think it might be bad but I'd be down to test it on a PTB. This change might work and is completely fine in practice but as matches have 1 billion variables I'd like to see the good the bad and the ugly things.
- I'd like a solution that isnt just "power gets disabled". Maybe make the overheat increase tremendously when you use it next to hook. Maybe it forces you to use it. Maybe using it once puts it on a cooldown. Maybe stacks become less effective. Maybe it no longer insta downs the unhooker. A lot of things that aren't "disables power" since that has been propsed 1 billion times and it s always the same being "it is highly abusable by survivors". Something that gives the killer the ability to use their power while not putting survivors in an unwinnable and unfun spot.
- the basement is the basement. it is imo totally fine and does not need any changing whatsoever. Every complaint i heard about the basement so far was camping or people getting stuck in the stairs. also outside the basement is often shack, one of the best loops in the game. Basement imo is a non issue. It should be killer sided. It should make survivors sweat a little. It should not be a home for bubba.
- partial invulnerability: how do you indicate it? how does it work? will swings go through the survivor and hit the guy in front? can you bodyblock while being invulnerable? can the killer just walk through you? what if the invulnerable guy spam vaults a pallet to block you from breaking it? what about the same on a window? can they do conspicuous actions? can they unhook someone else? how long does it last? will auto-aim break again? any perks that affect it? what about endurance + invulnerability? how do killer powers interact with it? There is a lot of things to consider when talking about invulnerability so I don't like adding another mechanic just because it might fix something because knowing behaviour it will cause more problems, then get fixed and be OP, then get nerfed but it is actually a buff, then a nerf that doesn't do anything, then it gets changed and is balanced but just because it is balanced does not make it fun.
- BT: i think it is okay as it is right now/soon; forcing the unhook is kinda clunky; i dont know what else i'd want it to do...
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So im a bit confused...
I feel as if you do agree with my points given that actual work would be put into them, not just firing and forgetting.
In your first point you do mention that you want to see the good and the bad and check whether unhook grabs would really change anything, great.
In your second point, you do mention that some work should be put into killers powers, changing them, adding/removing from them and such so they wouldnt be too hook oriented. Kinda how ive tried to, yet failed by outright saying in my post to "completely remove them", trying to fix what I meant in my prev comments.
In your third point, you do point out that lot of people complain about the current staircase and camping, and that it should be killer sided, but im just asking whether how killer-sided it really should be. As of right now, I believe something should be done. You dont, thats fine, but also are you perfectly fine with it as it is? I kinda want to ask, do you see any faults in the current basement and the BT and what would do if no? Edit: You havent exacly disproven my points, just outright deny them.
Most curious im about your fourth point, in which you do start asking about what variables should affect each moment of the unhooking, which is exacly what ive asked in my original post, throw around ideas, and dont just come to instant conclusion. Thent you mention Behaviour, we know their past, we dont exacly fully trust them. They might just do this one PTB and ######### off in to their cave or something.
I feel as if we are at an impasse: I cant do much other than giving practical situations in which the points ive tried to prove could do more harm for the game, and it sounds like you could approve of some of these changes but at the same time feel hesitant, maybe because of Behaviour or something else.
So if by chance, a PTB would come out and change the things ive talked about, not just once, but overtime. Would you care to try it out?
Post edited by Saint_Vicente on0
