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Nerfed the wrong perks if you wanted to stop camping
When can we finally get over the idea that survivors should have the tools to ‘prevent’ camping and tunnelling?
Things like BT, DS and OtR are great and all, but they don’t prevent camping and tunnelling, they merely aggravate the killers that do. That’s not a counter or a preventative measure, it’s an aggressive arms race. Who can wield the bigger stick?
They don’t stop tunnelling, because as soon as a killer is hit with one of them, they know that they’ve now eliminated that counter, and are free to tunnel that survivor without risk. And they certainly don’t do anything to prevent camping.
You know what things do prevent camping and tunnelling? Killer Perks
Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, BBQ & Chili, Ruin, Floods of Rage, Gift of Pain, the old Pain Resonance.
These perks legitimately prevent camping and tunnelling, because in order to utilise them, you cannot camp or tunnel. Yet three of them were just nerfed. (although credit where it's due; thumbs up for Gift of Pain)
These perks should be buffed, and we should get more perks like these, effective (read: meta) killer perks that when utilised correctly, drive the killer away from the hook and away from recently unhooked survivors.
Ruin: In order to capitalise on the regression from Ruin, you need to pressure gens, that means you need to leave the hook. While survivors complained about Ruin and it had a high pick rate, this perk was healthy for the game, it got the killer away from the hook, it got survivors looking for totems. This perk was over-nerfed. Now the killswitch on the perk after a survivor is eliminated is not a terrible idea, but this didn’t also need to have it’s potency nerfed at the same time.
BBQ: Separating the BP bonus from the perk is great, but this perk needs to maintain it’s incentive to spread hooks among the different survivors. It still works great as an anti-camping perk, but it’s lost it’s anti-tunnel trait. It needs to gain something from hooking each survivor once. Perhaps each time you hook a unique survivor, it grants a speed boost for a short time.
Pain Resonance: Yes, this perk used to do a lot all by itself, but it's a high-cost perk. It requires a specific circumstance (scourge hooks aren’t guaranteed, and can now be easily sabotaged) and it only affected one single generator. Moreover, with the increase to gen times, this much slowdown is no longer as necessary. You nerfed the wrong part. You should have reduced the amount of regression inflicted to perhaps 10%, and removed the scream that notified you if a survivor was on the gen and triggered DMS. But it NEEDS the loud noise notification. Without this information, the killer does not know where to go to pressure gens, and has no reason to leave the hook.
Pop Goes The Weasel: This was an effective anti camping perk too, because you need to use those 45s after a hook to find and kick a gen, providing a window to go for a hook rescue. Yet another healthy perk that was nerfed out of regular use.
The changes to these perks alone will have resulted in a marked increase in camping and tunnelling, especially as there is less pressure on the killer to defend gens now due to the increase in repair times.
Meanwhile…
Thanatophobia: Completely unnecessary buff. The increase to gen times alone is already compounded by the percentage slowdown this perk provides. This would have been perfectly fine at 5% per stack, maybe even at 4%. This is currently leading to a psychological aversion to generators among survivors, which is far more problematic than any singular buff to killers. Survivors simply aren't doing gens when they see this perk, they're giving up.
Comments
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Absolutely fair points.
I think a simple incentive for hooking all survivors would be giving a 500 BP bonus for hooking a survivor for the first time. It's not as much as BBQ, but it helps, especially now that the category can go up to 10k.
I agree with the rest of the changes too. Thana could be 16% reduction to gens, and 8% reduction to heal speed. That would be cool, and feel less awful, plus bring back a little of the "old thana" without being broken.
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Tunnelers don't care about bloodpoints, they care to win
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Yeah, OP's absolutely right. Making perks that are good and reward the player for going somewhere to do something is the correct path.
But, the montebank who scammed their way into being in charge of 'fixing' the killer perks wasn't looking at game balance. They saw the chance to slash and burn, and that's just what they did.
Somebody on the team did a very bad job and survivors are reaping the rewards of such short-sighted 'fixes.'
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Yes, we need more killer buffs!
Those pesky survivors think they got nerfed, when they're extremely overpowered. Especially the solo q ones.
Save the best for last should also give the killer haste to make up for the OVERPOWERED basekit haste effect survs got this highly survivor sided patch.
-A solo q main.
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I take it you like being camped then?
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I have said it a lot... But increasing the base regression would have been just as good
Cause if the base regression was .50 then Killers would actually spend more time kicking Gens (but I digress)
Also Maps have something to do with that as well... and I mean everything about Maps need to change
Some Killers Powers would need to be looked at (cause getting the Killers Power right means more Killers are good enough... depending on skill)
Plus seems how Ruin got nerfed... it would make sense
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They did not nerf to camp. They changed the meta so that Killer can have a chance to kill.
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Because that didn't happen before, right? /s
Seriously. If you couldn't get kills before. It's because you're bad at playing Killer and need more time on it. Sucks to hear but it's the truth.
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Looking at the changes to the perks... They changed the "meta" to change the "meta"
More specifically what perks were "meta"
The "meta" hasn't changed... it was doubled down on
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According to the devs and their data, killers were not getting enough killers prior to the recent patch. So, it being their game, they concluded something was wrong with the game and needed changing. So now, as you have done, we can say if you can't survive against the current killers, perhaps you're just bad at playing Survivor and need more time at it. Sucks to hear, but it's the truth.
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Plenty of people got kills prior. The problem with their "Data" is that it's not properly separated. You have entire pools of "Kill Data" that doesn't show who's new to what killer, when they all play differently. much like you have the statistic for Nurse being the lowest kill rate. But doesn't take into account people getting to the point of learning her and then being absurdly broken when using her properly.
But now you have absurd buffs on Killer and even Killers are saying it's too ######### easy now. So go ahead. What's the excuse then. We'll all wait
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Perks like Deadlock feel like they encourage camping, meanwhile perks like Ruin which encourages you to walk around and spook people gets dumpstered
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Yes, we need to buff more killer perks. 1/10 matches 1 survivor escape
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You absolutely right. The only option is to make camping completely punishable (like for example proximity to hook increase gen repair speed twice, just as example), but at the same time rewards for harassing other survivors across the map.
In the end it will be even more difficult, as many killers would have to increase their skill. But I rather die 10 times to a skillful killer, than sit on a gen and escape or dangle on the first hook till the end.
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What is your evidence for plenty of people had kills before? Did you somehow get all of the games statistics downloaded to your computer or is it just how you feel, your opinion? You have zero facts to back up your statement about the Devs and their data.
Since you want to bring up Nurse, do you have evidence that she's broken against similarly skilled opponents? Any killer will seem broken when paired up against potatoes or even casual players, it's no difference with Nurse.
Nothing that the killers were given was absurd. Every game I had today was similar to my matches before the patch, except that I've been getting somewhat more competent teammates. Only one game resulted in a 4k for the killer, the rest were 3 escapes.
The only thing that the devs did that I would call absurd was the nerf to DS. Especially after all the complaints about tunneling.
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Hook proximity punishments don't work. This has been proven in PTB tests where survivors abused it and ran the killer around the hook.
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No matter what changes they do or what perks they adjust in the end killers that just want to camp will camp no matter what change is put in place same with tunnelling, the players that just want to play this way will for me i would look more at the survivor that is camped then the killer, if a survivor is camped out of the game change it so they safety pipped and not lose one they could even add a new BP category so they also walk away with some BP.
Where as now if a survivor is camped out of the game early they depip and get next to no BP if they change those problems it will still suck to be camped at the start but at least you know you will safety pip and get BP.
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Those dont prevent camping, they gently suggest not to camp. But a killer that wants to camp will still just bring 4 auto slowdown perks and camp. Cant stop it.
I used to think like you, i said people were tunneling and camping because of the meta. Then we got a huge killer buff and lo and behold, people are still camping.
Now im convinced that most killers got used to camp and tunnel and used it as a crutch but now that we dont actually have to do it, they cant just stop because they no longer know how to play without it. Same deal with survivors that relied on DH and were impressively boosted after the patch. I legit encountered 7.5k hour player that managed to go down in less than 10 seconds each chase after the patch. Relying on a crutch = boosted, same for killers same for survivors.
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For sure there will always be killers who just want to camp and tunnel no matter what.
But there are also killers who only camp and tunnel because it's the best option, or because they feel the alternative is inefficient.
Make the alternative efficient, and those killers will be able to stop camping and tunneling.
Lots of killers just choose the meta perks and put up with them. Like how killers would run Ruin Undying, but still camp abd not pressure gens, while complaining that Ruin doesn't work.
That's an example of punshing camping that actually works. They may never realise their fault, but if they do, they'll stop camping.
If the meta perks cannot be utilised to their fullest when camping, that's a nerf to camping.
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''But there are also killers who only camp and tunnel because it's the best option, or because they feel the alternative is inefficient.'' Also because its extremely easy and requires no skill. This is very, very unlikely to ever change no matter how much you buff other perks. You can make BBQ aura reveal 10 seconds and it would mean nothing to some one who is bad at chases and already has a person on hook with an almost guarantee that more survivors are coming to their location.
Again, tunneling and camping is already not necessary at all but its rampant. This is, as far as my memory serves, the easiest killer has ever been. But people are still tunneling and camping because its a crutch. You cannot not make it into a crutch by buffing other perks. Gotta go nuclear and make it so if the killer is within 24 metres of the hook for 20+ seconds the hook timer gets +30 seconds or something like that. Dunno what could be done about tunneling, probably literally just revert DS.
I understand your good intentions but i honestly just think a good portion of killer base are just bad at the game and need their crutches taken away like we had with survivors.
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Then we just swing back to survivors having it easy and the cycle repeats...
Although one 'hard nerf' I would be in favour of is removing grabs on unhook attempts. these grabs only result in 'stand offs' at the hook where neither survivor nor killer wants to act first. This would prevent campers scoring two hooks from one, forcing them to swing and only get a hook trade. That benefits survivors because it resets the hook timer, but it doesn't majorly punish killers for camping all that much, so would it be an effective means of 'removing that crutch'? It would certainly make it more bearable for survivors.
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Edit: I think that would be too much but would like to see how that would affect the meta in the PTB. It would at least add skill to camping lol
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With the reduced attack cooddown, you can easily swing twice during an unhook attempt. So hook trades are pretty much guaranteed. I don't think any one camping should be able to score more than a hook trade. If they're putting all their effort into securing one hook, then they should secure ONE hook.
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Dunno, would be cool to see though
Edit: Would be a basically guaranteed rescue when 2 survivors attempt it though, and it would seriously limit killers options during EGC. On further thought, its worse than nuclear for sure mate.
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Then go the DS/OtR route. No hook grabs before the exits are powered.
And 2 survivors only secure the unhook if the killer is flustered and hits the wrong survivor. If you're standing right behind the survivor you still get to hit them twice, even if a third survivor gets the unhook, you still get a down and a fresh hook out of it.
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If you come with 2 survivors there are no wrong survivors. You wait around the hook till the killer hits one, that person immediately starts running while the other unhooks while killer recovers. Its not a mindgame, its a 100% guarantee.
For the while i would just not hit them till they commit argument, then the survivors would just start the unhooking and force you to hit them.
So realistically vs survivors with a modicum of skill, you are not going to be hook trading.
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I don't feel like I see this happening all that much, and when it does, it's only ever against hard campers. (again, disable it at end game if it's too strong, so it's not affecting 'valid' camping)
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I mean it doesnt happen much atm because this strategy doesnt exist atm. If you come with 2 people, killer can hook grab 2 people. If we were to do this change, this would become meta since you know it would be Most Effective Tactic Available.
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I mean, it's getting two additional survivors off gens, isn't that what the killer wants when they camp? They've then got at least two injured survivors, and are forced to chase one of them, ending the camping.
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When killers camp they want kills : P
Getting survivors off gens is nice, survivors being 100% able to rescue some one off the hook without even a hook trade is a little bit too strong. Granted it would fix camping for most killers that are not bubba, huntress, maybe trickster, billy, micky and i think thats all of the killers that would still be able to somehow camp. It would unironically kill camping for the rest of the killers. And hey, which might be fine. Camping is still a crutch.
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Just to add in there:
Pop Goes The Weasel: This was an effective anti camping perk too, because you need to use those 45s after a hook to find and kick a gen, providing a window to go for a hook rescue. Yet another healthy perk that was nerfed out of regular use.
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