Scott Jund's take on being tunneled

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I thought it was a pretty good video and, in my opinion, most people playing survivor are in the they want a bit of gens, bit of being chased, bit of a break from being chased off hook, repeat.

I'm in that group too but I do have to admit I like stacking OTR with DS for the satisfaction of knowing that if I'm tunneled I'm extremely annoying to tunnel and there's a very good chance the Killer threw the entire game to get me.

Also, the build mentioned of OTR, Overcome and Quick and Quiet sounds pretty cool.

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Comments

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,290
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    Not really; it's not a necessity. It's just something I do for fun in the case I get tunneled. I just like punishing tunnelers by making them throw the match if they really want me.

    It's more accurate, in my opinion, to say OTR is a necessity unless you want to throw about half of your matches.

    That probably wouldn't be necessary in most games if the basekit BT was raised to about 20 seconds as that would ensure that if you really want to tunnel it's pretty much guaranteed you're throwing the match.

    Even in that case, I'd still probably equip OTR just because, after the patch, I can actually do something about it when tunneled and most of the Killers I face have problems catching me in the first 20 seconds anyway especially with the new Haste buff.

  • Dead_Harder
    Dead_Harder Member Posts: 1,370
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    Oh i kind of get it. Being chased is fun but knowing that you will get sacrificed soon tains that fun. Like a last meal kind of deal.

  • sonata93
    sonata93 Member Posts: 418
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    Exactly that! It feels like a lot of effort when you know you're probably not going to escape anyway. Plus, being tunelled is just unfun, especially when killers do it straight off the back of a unhook. You don't even have time to heal and reset, and when the killer finally sacrifices you you wonder why they threw a whole match just to get you out of the game.

  • malloymk
    malloymk Member Posts: 1,543
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    Exactly. What makes survivor more enjoyable than killer to be is that I don't have to be on the entire game. Sure doing gens/totems is not exactly a riot, but I can sort of shut my brain off for a bit before I have to take any aggro. If you're just getting tunneled. Sure you're having the most fun in chases, but there is no break besides the time you're on the hook. And it's relatively short lived and then boom, unhooked, bt hit, and back to hoping to get to a loop.

    Also, I don't need to win every match, but I do want to play a bit. When you get tunneled, you're very much likely going to play a shorter game.

    That said, I usually don't get worked up about tunneling unless I'm playing swf. That's also annoying. Cool. I got rekt by a strong tunneler, now I can sit around and wait another six minutes before the game ends. Another minute or two of my teammates using the restroom after or changing their load out. Another minute or two of lobby time. It sucks. As a solo player, you can just move on to the next game quicker at least.

  • AnchorTea
    AnchorTea Member Posts: 1,015
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    I have respect for scott and he's a funny man. This opinion though has been the toughest take ever. I don't think most can get on board with it.

  • ThiccBudhha
    ThiccBudhha Member Posts: 6,988
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    If I am in a lobby where I need to "throw the game" to get a survivor out... That is probably why I tunneled. DS does not annoy me, I wholly expect it (I used to eat it early intentionally because of the end game exploit). Admittedly Off the Record is slightly annoying, but it would be even more annoying in a game I am trying to play fair. So the point is kind of moot.


    Someone body blocked me with that trash while on stage 2 and just expected me to continue playing fair for some reason, they did not realize I was at 8 stacks of Save the Best for Last and they left the game VERY shortly after that little stunt (queue the Megamind, "no DS?) Maybe they wanted it, idk. I do not understand survivors.

  • Phantom_
    Phantom_ Member Posts: 1,243
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    Perfectly explained!

    Also to Scott's point, yes being chased can be fun and in the long run, you will learn from it. However, when this is happening games in a row because this tactic is now very easy and common it ruins all the fun. It's no fun leaving match after match getting face-camped and then being tunneled to death, with the killer literally ignoring the other survivors. Nor is it fun to have the absolute bare minimum of BP's because you spent getting chased all game long and barely did any of the other side objectives to earn as much BP as possible.

  • loveontherocks
    loveontherocks Member Posts: 22
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    It's true that if you're being tunneled and killed early it's likely that you're not very good. My response is...so what? Should having one bad player on a team doom the rest of the survivors to certain defeat? This isn't Dota. We're all here to have a good time.

    Incentives should be aligned so that the most effective way to play is also fair. Right now the best strategy for a killer who wants to win is to pick out the weakest survivor and get them out of the game as fast as possible. Nobody feels good about that, not even most killers. Flashlight-clicking neon-clothed survivors who love being chased are not the ones complaining on the forums, and they are a small minority of the player base.

  • Gindaen
    Gindaen Member Posts: 374
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    If you believe killers should get incentives to not camp, then you also believe that survivors should get incentives to not suicide on hook/DC?

  • ModernFable
    ModernFable Member Posts: 836
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    @Gindaen

    Again, I don't personally find chases to be the fun-est part of the game. I was speaking for the sake of argument.

    And I agree with most of the changes made to killer for this patch, even with the present consequences.

    I do however, think that Behavior should have taken more dramatic steps to handle camping and tunneling alongside these changes. So that even with a multitude of killer buffs, the game remains fun for all most of the time.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,714
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    I think the gripes about tunneling are actually deflections from being gripes about mid match player elimination. It’s not that the survivor is getting chase that they dislike, it’s that the ultimate result is they get eliminated in the middle of the match and everybody else gets to keep playing. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with so called tunneling, it’s simply that inevitably someone gets downed two or three times in a row and booted from play and that midgame elimination is generally speaking a problematic design for that reason.

    So there’s not really a solution per se to tunneling that wouldn’t basically involve getting rid of mid match player elimination. As long as people can be booted from the game there will always be a lot of complaints about how it was unfair they got “tunneled” out first. The most the game can probably do is try and steer killers to not immediately attack someone right after an unhook.

  • KayTwoAyy
    KayTwoAyy Member Posts: 1,699
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    My teammates have been going down so fast it feels like they must all be throwing. I rarely have LOS on the chase, so I can't imagine that is whats happening, but boy is it a struggle. Far too many games I've played where the killer has 5-6 hooks and I've yet to complete a single generator.

  • Dito175
    Dito175 Member Posts: 1,391
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    Camping is guaranteeing a kill while suicide on hook is giving up on the match, they are not the same thing.

  • Gindaen
    Gindaen Member Posts: 374
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    This is more a question of what works. You obviously believe penalties work to prevent unwanted behavior. So why not use penalties to prevent camping-at-gen-5, just like you do for DCs? Is it really fair that you give incentives to one side and punishments to the other side.

  • brokedownpalace
    brokedownpalace Member Posts: 8,761
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    "He goes in there with a mindset completely different from the casual gamer who's investing their free time for leisure."

    This is a great point, thank you. I like Scott and I appreciate his mindset, but it's not for everyone, particularly people who only have so much free time to play DBD or who only want to log in to play a couple games only to end up being ruthlessly tunneled.

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,290
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    I think I'm a mid tier survivor but I think the difference between my experience and others is, for whatever reason, my MMR is correct. I escaped roughly 55% of the time pre patch and I escape roughly 55% of the time post patch. That suggests to me my MMR has settled where it should be as that's close to the 50% goal.

    My opinion is that it would be more accurate to say taking DS and DH has been replaced by taking at least OTR and probably an exhaustion perk you're good at. OTR has saved me far more than pre patch DS ever did.

    Personally, for changes in the future I'd like to see the base BT duration increased significantly (to 15 to 20 seconds thereabouts) with the addition of Conspicious Actions removing Endurance and the perk Kinship buffed.

    I don't think that would be onerous to Killers (and I say that as someone who does play both sides regularly) as, with Conspicuous Actions added, you can't do anything to progress the game and a buffed Kinship could be worked to only affect Killers essentially facecamping. That would probably help because, as @dugman stated, mid- match elimination can be problematic. Most people don't have a problem with being eliminated eventually, they just want to play the game first though.

  • Dito175
    Dito175 Member Posts: 1,391
    edited July 2022
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    I wasn't defending it, I do agree that incentives would be nice, the only thing that kept me plaing survivor in the first days was the bp bonus now I don't even bother.

  • EternalSinOfCain
    EternalSinOfCain Member Posts: 132
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    That's because "We want to be chased all game! That's what's fun!" was a lie told by Survivors way back when.

    Back before patch 1.4.0 Looping was nowhere near as powerful as it is today. In Patch 1.4.0 the developers re-sized the Survivors hit boxes to be smaller, in order to help Survivors not get hit out in the open so easy, and to help compensate for latency issues. This had an unintentional effect, as Survivors found out they could now hug objects much tighter than before. This, in turn, meant they could run around objects in tighter, and therefore, faster circles than Killers could. Before this, you could get MAYBE one Loop out of a Pallet. Instead of the usual 2-3 now, before having to drop it. Thus, Looping as it is known today was born. This, by all accounts, makes Looping an Exploit as it fits the definition of video game exploits. 


    See Link here -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit


    Survivors, still reeling from the loss of true Infinites, took to this like fish to water. The developers planned to fix it at first, but quickly decided to leave it in the game and try to balance around it due to pressure from their Survivor player base. The majority player base of Survivor Mains just couldn't win without having something that was blatantly game breaking to abuse. Most Survivors then told the biggest lie in the games history : "We want to be chased all game! That's what's fun!" In order to protect this new exploit. The developers caved, and have been struggling to re-balance the game for its inclusion ever since.


    Killers were simply ill-equipped to deal with Looping and Stealth. This is why Killers now have a PLETHORA of aura reading perks, add ons, powers, and abilities. This was also the reason Bloodlust was shoehorned into the game. It was a band-aid mechanic to try to help killers against looping being so overpowering. The developers gave the Survivors what they wanted, to be chased all game and let them have their loops. They are simply trying to give both sides what they want. Killers the power to be able to stand up to Looping, Survivors the game play they wanted. Though truth is, neither side is very happy. In short : Killers are getting the balance they wanted (I say getting cause they still aren't there yet). However, not the game play they want. Survivors got the game play they wanted, but not the balance they want (as in being OP as hell).

    (In case anyone is wondering, the above is a copy paste I typed up 4 years ago.)

    Now, being chased all game isn't so much fun. All because it's not an automatic win, seeing as the game is FINALLY being balanced for Looping, and the 2nd chance Crutch perk meta is nerfed. It goes to show, I knew what many Survivors were REALLY thinking way back when. Being chased all game is fun, but for many survivors, it's only fun if they win. If they loose because of it, then it's "not fun." Many Survivors have a long standing record of using "X is/isn't fun" as a weapon, to browbeat the developers into changing the game so the balance is in their favor.

    The biggest issue now with camping/tunneling is many Survivors are so used to being able to Loop, blow all their 2nd chance perks, AND STILL SURVIVE, they are mad they can't now. If one person has to die, ONE PERSON DIES. Many Survivors still consider DBD a 1v1 FOUR TIMES OVER, not a 1v4. Which is completely backwards. Many have developed a "Hero Complex", being able to "beat the killer" and still escape. Sure, you can't kill the killer, but having the Killer chase you all game and still getting out is "beating the killer". Now that it usually doesn't happen, they aren't happy about it.

    I've been playing a lot of Survivor and doing decently. However my biggest problem is team mates. I'm solo Queue and there are two major factors that play into any loss I may get.

    Firstly : Rage Quitting. Some Survivors are just ANGRY AS HELL and are purposely throwing the match and disconnecting or "offing themselves" on their first hook. Some are simply doing it to artificially inflate kill rates, to skew the developers data in order to get buffs so they can "Hero" and often times bully killers again.

    Secondly : Simply playing stupid because they are so used to old meta plays. They try to do stupid hook saves in the killers face, ungodly amount of hook trades, rushing a gen while injured when the killer is nearby cause they are used to "Press E to avoid hit or make it to safe Loop", you name it. They CONTINUE to play like they are a "Hero" that can just keep taking smacks over and over.

    Instead of taking solace in the fact they wasted a good amount of the killers time, and they really helped their team, they are only concerned about themselves. This "MeMeMe" mentality is because they are used to being a "Hero", not a scared weak Survivor.

  • Gindaen
    Gindaen Member Posts: 374
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    Thus, Looping as it is known today was born. This, by all accounts, makes Looping an Exploit as it fits the definition of video game exploits. 

    Looping is not an exploit.

  • EternalSinOfCain
    EternalSinOfCain Member Posts: 132
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    Yes, it is. It was only turned into core gameplay after pressure from Survivors. Why do you think Bloodlust was added into the game? Why do you think Killers have so many Aura Reading perks now as well as Killer Instinct? All added as a way to reduce Stealth gameplay because "That's not fun being immersed" and "we want to be chased all game." It has always been an exploit, and hence why the game has massive changed since it came out.

    Go ahead, look up the patch notes.

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,290
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    Just a side note I like OTR better than BT for solo queue because, before, I was gambling if the unhooker had BT. Now I can guarantee I'll have Endurance straight off hook and be harder to find. Since it works for both unhooks it's more useful than DS as well.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,822
    edited July 2022
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    I think pretty much all of Scott's commentary since the patch release has been totally on point, and I agree that survivor with zero killer interaction would be horribly dull.

    But one thing not accounted for here, and is one area where the feedback of those who play the game for a living falls short is that the vast majority of people just aren't as good as they are.

    Even as a killer main, Scott is a good enough surv that being tunneled out is likely a process that will take a good portion (or virtually all) of a game. For most survs against a decent+ killer, being tunneled out of a game might be a matter of only 3-4 minutes. Or less, if your team farms you.

    That is not fun.

    But I am not sure what can be done about it. As he says, and as we all know, if a killer is determined to tunnel you out even at the cost of the game, it's going to happen (unless you are on a strong SWF).

  • VoidOfMe
    VoidOfMe Member Posts: 416
    edited July 2022
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    finding a way to punish a killer who kills a survivor with zero hooks on anyone else might be a good way to look at it.

  • AMOGUS
    AMOGUS Member Posts: 482
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    Did you seriously ignore everything else in their reply, including the explanation for why they said looping was an exploit, just to go for this?

  • Rovend
    Rovend Member Posts: 1,047
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    wait wait, if looping was an exploit and not meant to be in the game, what was the normal gameplay mechanic to use when the killer spots you and begin to chase you? run in a straight line and lasting 10 sec?

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 898
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    While I agree with the general sentiment of "being repeatedly chased is good if you enjoy chases and you should enjoy chases if you play DbD because that is its most exciting and engaging gameplay aspect" and have argued as much myself in the past, I see multiple issues with his take here.

    First, he glosses over the fact that being tunnelled right off hook regularly does not provide the tunnelled survivor with an actual chase. He mentions Nurse with stacked range add-ons as if that were the only instance where a survivor can't do much of anything to prevent ending right back up on the hook, but there's a ton of scenarios that result in the same thing, taking much of any agency and interactiveness out of the equation:

    • For one thing, the unhooked survivor is injured, which already puts them at a tremendous disadvantage in a chase scenario as opposed to starting a chase healthy. Not only are they leaving pools of blood and sending out cries of pain with which the killer can track them, making mindgames and stealth-jukes much less feasible, but they obviously cannot take a hit without going down, and this absence of having what is usually a built-in Exhaustion perk in the form of the hit sprint and killer hit slowdown as well as just the leeway to take more risks due to having a "free" hit is significant.
    • If the tunnelled survivor does not have Off The Record equipped (or the unhooking survivor Borrowed Time), it is often incredibly easy for the killer to simply wait out the 5 seconds of base Endurance and down the survivor then, bodyblocking them to keep them from getting anywhere if need be. 5 * 4 meter is only 20m, that can already be dicey in terms of finding a (safe) window or pallet in general (all the more so given that the killer will be riding your back), but you have to add on top of this the fact that survivors will usually be hooked close to where they went down, i. e. where they likely already used pallets. Then apart from basic bodyblocking, there are killer abilities that can further make these 5 seconds irrelevant, such as Clown's bottles, Slinger's spear, Pinhead's chains. And of course, for the years and years prior to the recent update these 5 seconds of base Endurance didn't even exist.
    • If the survivor does have OTR/the unhooker BT, it's also not like the distance gained from that hit will reliably result in a fair chase scenario. Even against a pure M1 killer, that is merely ~14m distance to catch up over. Now consider the killer having Save The Best For Last, which can cut the distance down further by a good 4m. The tunnelled survivor in this scenario is rarely getting anywhere, and depending on the hook location is just guaranteed to go down again.
    • Then there's a plethora of killer abilities that will make the distance gained from the Endurance hit matter even less. Nurse obviously doesn't care about that distance whatsoever. Neither does Blight. Spirit can catch up quickly too. Huntress can just hatchet the survivor first, and then M1 them seconds later. Clown can gas the hook, hit the unhooked survivor and then gas them again, also catching up to them in seconds. If Plague has Corrupt Purge, the unhooked survivor is not getting anywhere. Same for Oni in Blood Fury. Leatherface can potentially eat Endurance and down the survivor in 1 chainsaw attack. Trickster melts through Endurance. Legion can use Feral Frenzy to stab the survivor, catch up to them, and cancel Frenzy. Slinger and Pyramid Head can get them on range. Twins just send out Victor. And so on.

    So already it is obvious that equating "tunnelling" with "repeated chase scenarios" is dishonest. It's odd that Scott does this so casually here, given that "farming off hook" has been a longstanding meme about one of the worst offenders in terms of bad game design with DbD.

    Next, he doesn't consider the fact that you yourself might not and very regularly in fact will not be the player that is getting tunnelled. So by his own argument, if being chased is the thing you should want most out of this game, the killer literally refusing to chase anyone but one survivor until they are dead is obviously not good for the game. But more than that, even if you yourself are good at chases, your random teammates regularly absolutely will not be. And so even ignoring that even a good player regularly cannot do much of anything to prevent going down again shortly after having been unhooked, a not-good player will get tunnelled out very quickly. And if you are left with 3 survivors and only few gens done, the chances of success collapse. Which leads me to my next point:

    Losing isn't fun. Scott might actually not care about himself and other players in his survivor games dying, but he does care about killing survivors in his killer matches. So the concept of caring about winning and not liking losing is not foreign to him. Tunnelling is an issue for many people because either they themselves die to it quickly, or their teammates do, which then also often seals their own fate. Tunnelling is a very effective killing strategy, alongside camping it is in fact the most effective killing strategy, it is objectively optimal gameplay if your goal is to kill as many survivors as possible as reliably as possible, and tournament play too makes this very obvious. I'm not sure why Scott pretends like it isn't, surely he is aware of the DoucheBat series, or of course of his own NegaScott thing, where they will camp and tunnel with a vengeance and win even more decisively than they otherwise already most of the time do, 4ks at 4-5 gens galore. The argument then of course is that tunnelling (and camping) is simply too effective a strategy from the public match perspective where random survivors get absolutely demolished by it constantly, most of all solo survivors of course.

    Sure you can say "just enjoy the chases even if you die and lose", and sure for some people (including myself, if only to certain extents) that's fair enough, but that's just not what most people want, they actually want to escape, and they get frustrated if they die all the time. Particularly so of course if it's to camping and tunnelling, which often simply do not leave much in the way of player agency or any gameplay altogether for the player on the receiving end. Which is even more understandably frustrating for players that do not play this game for a living and can't just go to their next match in their 8-hour playing session, but where those terrible games are among the few rounds they might get to play at all.

    Lastly, he says there's nothing that can really be done about tunnelling that wouldn't upset the basic game balance of the killer being able to secure at least 1 kill on someone. Of course, as he also mentions there could be fundamental changes to the game that do achieve this (such as making it so the killer simply wins by getting X amount of hooks, and nobody getting sacrificed until that amount is reached), but there's absolutely things that can be done to make tunnelling (and camping) less effective of a strategy, and if that does upset the game balance, provide compensatory buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay. Decisive Strike could do something again, for one thing. The unhook Endurance could last 10-20 seconds, and even be replaced with the unhook invincibility, such that a tunnelled survivor has both that and the Endurance from OTR. Unhooked survivors could be healthy. The unhook Haste could last 60 seconds. Gen repair speeds could be increased whenever the killer is chasing the survivor most recently unhooked, and decreased whenever they are chasing anyone else. The aura of the most-recently-unhooked survivor could be revealed to all other survivors for as long as they are injured, enabling those other survivors to take hits for them, lure the killer away from them, heal them, position for save plays (e. g. flashlight/pallet/sabo saves). Remove hook grabs. Basekit Kindred. Increase gen repair speeds if the killer is within a certain range of a hooked survivor, and decrease them if the killer is chasing any survivor while another survivor is hooked, with that decrease in repair speed getting greater the farer away from the hook that chase is happening. Give killers power-ups based on how many survivors have hook states, and power-downs if a survivor is sacrificed with none (or only one) of the other survivors having hook states. These powers could apply to movement speed, pallet breaking and window vaulting speeds, hit recovery times, gen regression, information provided, and so on. As could any general killer buffs shipped to compensate for any of these or other camp/tunnel nerfs.

  • AMOGUS
    AMOGUS Member Posts: 482
    edited July 2022
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    Not the same person, but iirc, I remember hearing that pallets were supposed to be a distraction and used to END chases, not continue them.

    Yes... a distraction. You were supposed to (potentially) stun the Killer with a pallet and then manage to lose the Killer within the time of them breaking it or getting stunned by it.

    EDIT: Also, pallets weren't supposed to be looped around either. I remember hearing that the concept of looping wasn't supposed to exist, and that matches up with what this person is saying.

  • HectorBrando
    HectorBrando Member Posts: 3,167
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    You put yourself under the lights you are bound to get scrutiny from the comunity, its like being a political comentator and not expecting people supporting/criticizing your positions.