A "solution" to tunneling that I like
I saw this video and I tend to agree with the points made so credit to him.
basically what he said:
- extend the basekit BT to 10 seconds
- remove collision for survivors under the BT effect so they cant be bodyblocked and they in turn cant bodyblock the killer
- maybe buff DS back to 5 seconds
this wouldnt remove tunneling but hardcore senseless tunneling would probably lose the killer the game which is what I think should happen.
Your thoughts? Because I dont see any real way this can be abused. it might be too strong but there is LITERALLY no way to find out until this would be tested.
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The moment you remove bodyblocking with BT, you're just going to discourage altruism even more than it alread is, because the trade would be guaranteed instead of contested, even if another survivor as well gets off gens. Or, you would have ridiculous situations were coordinated survivors run together inside each other hoping that a swing gets a wonky registration on the bt'd survivor.
Especially, in endgame, survivors would just leave even faster than they do now. And anti tunneling is already nerfed into the ground when gens are completed, not even at egc.
The game would switch from a tunnel off hook, to just trade survivors on this cozy scourge hook.
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Most is debatable but what you said about survivors running together, that will no doubt be a thing. Yeah, I'm not too sure about it now.
"would have ridiculous situations were coordinated survivors run together inside each other hoping that a swing gets a wonky registration on the bt'd survivor."
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i meant the loss of colission only applies to the BT'd survivor and the killer.
the survivor can still be blocked by other survivors and vice versa.
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I came up with a theme-friendly tunnel idea here. Addresses tunneling entirely, but fails to address camping.
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I saw that post a while ago but imo this solution was a bit over the top.
It requires a completely new system to be developed and added and it punishes smart tunneling.
IMO smart tunneling should be hard but not made literally impossible. If someone plays bad and gens arent being done, tunnelling is okay.
Your idea while nice, would make good plays impossible.
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I'd welcome an example of smart tunneling. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Just examples would be valuable.
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smart tunneling is taking advantage of survivors playing poorly. Some situations where tunnelling is a smart thing to do:
- the other survivors arent really doing gens so you can commit to a longer chase in order to kill a survivor more easily later
- survivors are hyper altuistic and take a lot of hits for the survivor you tunnel (usually swf); this gives you a lot of free hits and sometimes downs
- one survivor is playing way worse than the other survivors; getting rid of the weak link is always smart
- the survivor you are tunnelling runs towards gens that are being done; now you pressure gens while chasing
- the survivors are farming; just because you unhook right in front of me while i play executioner doesnt mean i wont use my ability to hit both of you and then m1 the unhooked person and send them into a cage
scenarios where you arent punished for tunneling a survivor and scenarios where it is just the best thing to do to get that survivor out of the game as quickly as possible. Most of these can be countered by playing well on the survivor side.
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Ah! Apologies. I meant that mine is only specifically about people who JUST got unhooked. You'd still be welcome to tunnel anyone otherwise, but this is strictly to allow an unhooked survivor a chance to "reset".
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One amendment I'd make would be to not impliment the collision suggestion, and instead give the unhooked survivor a 3 second Sprint Burst. That way, the survivor can really punish a tunnelling killer, should they be daft enough to try. It also doesn't remove that survivor's chance to bodyblock if they wish to use it, but of course then they don't get the sprint burst benefit, so it's a toss up for them.
Other than that, it's what I'd do, so yeah it's pretty decent!
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This is the only way removing body blocking would work. While it sounds good on paper to just remove collision, the survivor with 7% haste still moves slower than every single killer in the game except nurse and tombstone Myers, which arguably still don't matter here.
Moving slower than the killer is a death sentence, since any killer who wants to tunnel you doesn't even have to count anymore. Just wait until you have collision back and it's guaranteed you have no BT left.
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If you don't want killers to tunnel, make hooked survivors repair gens at half speed for, like, 30-60 seconds or until somebody else gets hooked, whichever comes first.
If the others are repairing way faster, there's value in going after them instead of the one you just injured. Plus, you know, the whole 'pain and blood loss hindering you from doing your job' thing.
MORE baseline survivor buffs ain't the way, my man.
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no, positive incentives do not work. Just literally look at this patch, killers got some huge buffs yet senseless camping and tunnelling has been more prevelant than before.
Literally in any online game positive incentives do not work. Winning is the thing people want and if tunnelling and camping gets them there, they will do it.
also i am not your man
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+10% faster kicking pallets is not a "huge buff" when there are 20+ pallets on every map.
And I'm not your buddy, guy.
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never called you buddy, that's disrespectful
also i think you forgot about literally all the other buffs so let me remind you of them:
- Generators take 90 seconds for a single survivor to repair (was 80 seconds)
- Killers kicking a generator now immediately cause a 2.5% loss of progress in addition to starting regression
- The following Killer actions have been sped up by 10%:
- Bloodlust trigger times have been reduced to 15 seconds for Tier 1, 25 seconds for Tier 2, and 35 seconds for Tier 3 (was 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and 45 seconds)Cooldown time after a successful hit has been reduced to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds)
- Time to kick a generator has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Time to kick a pallet or wall has been reduced to 2.34 seconds (was 2.6 seconds)
- Duration of the Survivor speed boost when hit has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Endurance does not prevent a Survivor from entering the dying state if they are inflicted with Deep Wound
- Endurance status effect is now cancelled by Conspicuous Actions
- survivor perk nerfs
- inconsequential killer perk nerfs (sure ruin and pop are dead but there are enough replacements)
- killer perk buffs
- the removal of DH significantly reduces chase length
please do not undersell that all these add up and they are indeed huge; this is not a bad thing because killers needed really needed it, but dont just ignore it happened.
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And the seven best killer perks were all nerfed to pointlessness.
10% buffs to relatively minor events doesn't fix the fact that generators still fly, it takes too long to catch up with survivors who run, most maps are oversaturated with pallets, and most killers don't have the tools they need to down survivors in a timely manner or keep up with how fast survivors can heal themselves.
If you're having trouble playing in the new situation, I feel for ya. I'm having a tremendous amount of difficulty playing killer in the new environment. 0.3 seconds counts for a lot less than I think you believe it does.
Also the "buddy" thing is a South Park reference. It's a pretty funny show. You should check it out.
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in this entire patch i have played 3 hours of killer and i didnt lose a single match... while some swf or cracked soloQ people can still beat killers and some maps are still horrible, 0.3 seconds are A LOT inside a chase.
Playing demogorgon has been a blast but there are still issues in the game and I dont want to nerf killers and buff survivors with this. I want the survivor experience to be more fun and punish bad plays. This is not something I'd personally add to the game without any other changes.
We should try to make the game more enjoyable for both killers and survivors by deleting or punishing unfun mechanics or tactics.
Why is Nurse still so strong? maybe nerf her
Why does Blight have add-ons that remove counterplay? maybe they shouldnt remove the only tool survivors have
Why can a survivor just run to the main building on garden of joy and be invincible unless you brought bambooule or play certain killers? maybe that window shouldnt exist
Why is Gideon Meatplant filled with god pallets? I dont know but there probably shouldnt be 5 of them next to each other
Why is SWF so much better than SoloQ? because the lack of communication, give survivors tools to communicate to clase the gap between both survivor modes so you can balance both of them fairly
This game has a lot of problems and I am trying to fix 1 of them with this which is that mindless tunnelling is very effective (basekit BT does literally nothing in my experience) and it just removes 1 survivor's ability to play the game that match.
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I don't mind this change but if you're gonna give base kit 10 second Borrowed Time, they would have to disable it once the gates are powered. The survivors should not be able to get a nearly free escape from an ability that does not fill a perk slot.
Also how would the Borrowed Time perk be altered to accommodate this change?
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Ye this effect should probably disable during end-game.
also BT could give the unhooked person more haste, a slightly increased timer (like 5 more seconds) and maybe some other wacky effect that i cant think of right now.
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Positive incentives do work, they are just not 100% effective.
I have the perfect example: Barbeque & Chili. Before 6.1.0 I always tried to get my 4 stacks, usually as early in the game as possible. With BBQ stacks now gone, if one or 2 of the survivors resist to fiercely I will target the weaker survivors until they either start dying or the stronger players start taking big enough risks that I find a good opportunity to pursue them.
There are no positive incentives for a killer to not tunnel and there are no disincentives either. If either were implemented, (I imagine some sort of bloodpoint bonus for hooking all survivors before one dies or a penalty for straight 3-hooking one survivor before hooking anyone else) you would see a drop in tunneling. Would it eliminate tunneling? Certainly not, but tunneling can't be eliminated without completely overhauling how DbD works.
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while positive incentives do work, they dont work on people wanting to win. Winning is the biggest incentive there is, so if the actions players take do not actively make victory harder, they will not work on players whose objective is to win.
Also BP incentives do not work on a lot of players that smply dont care, like me for example. I already have almost anything I need, prestiging to 100 is worthless and refreshing my add-ons is not really that important. Killers already get a lot of BP simply by playing unlike survivors so it affects killers even less than survivors.
Also I am not again tunnelling in general. Tunneling CANT be eliminated and thats fine. If a killer really wants you dead, 95% of the time you will die simply because they will eventually down you. What shouldnt exist however is that mindless tunnelling gets rewarded by quickly getting a player out of the game, forcing them to sit in queue again just for a chance to play. If you completely tunnel vision onto a survivor you probably should lose the round as you force 3 survivors to simply press m1 and 1 guy a certain death. Unfun gameplay should not be rewarded.
The most fun dbd matches are always the one where you get chased, get downed, hooked, rescued then reset, touch a gen for 5 seconds before you help another survivor or get chased again. This is supposed to promote fun and engaging gameplay for both sides and punish boring playstyles.
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Upon unhooking survivors don't immeditaly have collision against each other. It's made like that to prevent the unhooker from griefing the unhooked. That's how it is on the live version. As is, survivors can already run inside each other if they want to. They simply have no reason for it, currently. Except for meme'ing.
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this patch was really generous to killers but when it comes to camping and tunneling they made a mistake. they took away the bp gain from bbq so no one runs it anymore and lets be real it helped to reduce camping in the early game and they took away the info part of pr. i personally dont have bbq so i coulnt use it even if i wanted to but since pr isnt giving me info anymore i have a harder time to find a new targed so sticking around a place i know someone will come sounds good and i just dont do it because i dont like camping. and yes i know there will always be people that camp no matter what and you could only stop them by making camping a bannable offens but that isnt going to happen.
maybe we could mak a mini bbq basekit so when you hook someone you see the aura of one survivor and when you ingage in a chase with that survivor in the next 60 second you get some bonus bp. that will probably not get rid of camping but i think it could lessen the amount of people that camp a bit
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I haven't read every comment here because I just don't have the time to, this is a drive-by reply. However, I wanted to see if there was any post about tunnelling and here is one.
BHVR just simply needs to change off the record so a killer hit no longer disables the perk, only way it is disabled is if you do one of the conspicuous actions, so it's a guaranteed 80 seconds of peace after being unhooked.
Would it be too strong? nope, only if you want to tunnel and it's disabled in the endgame.
Would it be abusable by survivors? For sure it would and we saw it on the PTB how it goes, it's annoying but they don't get gens done
Would it end tunnelling once and for all? hell yeah, it would
it's not like players have been warned about the negative impact of tunnelling, so if they won't stop, then fine it's on them that off the record exists and can't be disabled by a landed attack.
I'm not against what Scott Jund suggests and all for it being added, but off the record is a better choice to go with imo.
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So we just give out free hooktrades to killers that dont move away from the hook? Nah, thats stupid.
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10% faster pallet kicking, plus 10% faster hit recovery, plus 10% less sprint burst duration when a survivor gets hit, are definitely noticeable buffs for killers. Especially the faster pallet kicking speed can make the difference between a survivor getting to another pallet or window, or not. Especially with the Dead Hard nerf as well.
And then there is the 10 second gen time increase, which has the most impact of all the killer buffs.
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????
they literally already get that?
what?
this is literally already the case if the killer camps...
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With BT thats not the case if timed properly.
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??????
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"I dont see any real way this can be abused. it might be too strong but there is LITERALLY no way to find out until this would be tested."
The devs nerfed those things because it gave survivors way too much freedom. Also 10 seconds of immunity without a perk is just way too long. Even you said : too strong.
Tunneling is still completely necessary against a SWF. In some ways a SWF is stronger now than before because the old gen defense perks could instantly remove 40% progress. Now the killer gets a few ticks of faster kicking progress and someone in the SWF removes it.
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