Maps are still way too safe
In this video Otz plays against survivors in the 1v1 Scenario. Most of the people he plays against can make the chase last anywhere from one to three minutes.
The ability for any one survivor to be able to run a killer like this breaks the game. Something needs to change. It's absurd that we see some chases last for three minutes and quite a few go for two minutes. Remember this is not some random low skill baddie getting juiced. This is a veteran streamer with approximately 9k hours.
One option is to change most of the maps so pallet density creates more dead zones and allows for fewer pallet into pallet/vault scenarios. Scott Jund talked about this in his dream patch notes scenario where there would be a "resource density" balance mechanism.
Another option would be to have killers not lose their bloodlust when kicking/getting hit by pallets.
People say things like : Killers tunnel too often. Well why does that happen? One of the contributing factors is that maps like this need to be completely reworked so that a chase is about X seconds (let's say 60 seconds as an example). A good chase is +10 seconds and a very good chase is +20 seconds.
And yes before you ask I agree that Nurse needs changes. I'd be down to nerf Nurse, Blight, most of the large/safer maps and SWF all in the next big "shake up".
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Maps really are an issue. I really felt it the other day, playing Dredge on Grim Pantry. I usually do really well with him, often getting 4ks. I got looped to oblivion, and ran across the map as gens flew. It was awful. All 4 of them got out, and I'm pretty sure there was some cheating going on anyway, as it felt like I was struggling to catch them alot of the time. Same thing happened on Thompson House...
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I agree that problems in specific layouts are a persistent thorn for DbD. Not to the extent that the game is totally broken or anything that extreme, but certainly at the high MMR brackets the map layout itself can have a big impact on which side wins. At average and above average brackets, though, player skill trumps the map layout. If I outplay the survivors I’ll normally win regardless of the map and vice versa, good strategy and macro play and not making tactical missteps are the single biggest factors of winning or losing, it’s only when the players are all playing with only minor missteps that things like the maps and perk loadouts become the true deciding factors.
Unfortunately as far as maps go adjusting maps to be balanced at expert level of play is probably extremely difficult. Not only is it something that is I’m guessing exceedingly hard to actually test internally but even if you find something you want to change it requires a bit of effort on the programming side to shift map assets around because of the additional QA testing that they presumably have to do on the new versions of the tiles to make sure there are no places players can get stuck, for instance. To the devs credit they do make map adjustments over time, removing apparent infinite loops and brightening spots that were too dark and such, so they’re not ignoring them. But there’s probably only so much map revamping that can fit in the developmental pipeline and a ton of maps and tiles in the game to consider.
All that said, while I think maps will always be a nagging issue, there is one thing the devs could hypothetically do literally today if they wanted that would at least mitigate the impact of the worst map imbalances - they could entirely remove map offerings from the game. Map offerings are terrible on this respect because they allow players who want to abuse a potentially broken map to force matches onto it. For instance, when we had issues with Boil Over squads using RPD so they could be unhookable in the library there, it was the fact that they could use an RPD offering to force the game onto that map that allowed them to know it would work. And in a similar lesser vein at high MMR you see players often forcing the game onto specific maps they feel are biased toward their side which lowers the map variety a bit you get to experience overall. Whatever benefits of map offerings might exist seem extremely minor compared to the downsides of the issues they cause, particularly when it comes to players abusing maps with potentially busted set ups.
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Cowshed is arguably the most survivor sided map in the game. I agree that maps like it need to be made more balanced, but these maps are a very bad representation of the game's balance, because most maps aren't that bad.
Also, Otz played a Trapper without traps, so just an M1 killer without any power. So fo course chases will take longer.
But Cowshed is definitely an awful map. That map and Eyrie of Crows are the two worst maps in the game in my opinion.
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"but certainly at the high MMR brackets the map layout itself can have a big impact on which side wins. At average and above average brackets, though, player skill trumps the map layout"
That's completely false. I'm not an amazing looper and I would probably last maybe a minute against Otz or less. The other day while playing on Azarov's I saw the most broken layout I have ever seen since that map got reworked. In the middle of the map there was an L/T wall with a connecting parallel vault and another L/T wall. The terrain forced the M1 killer chasing me to get bloodlust level III both times to get a hit. That level of RNG allowed to be a thing is completely unfair and it happens all the time.
Some of the maps are literally built with a get out of jail free card.
"Unfortunately as far as maps go adjusting maps to be balanced at expert level of play is probably extremely difficult"
The problem with looping in DBD is that you need to make it so that low/middle skill players can do it but high skill players can't loop for an extra one to two minutes. There's a very simple solution that nerfs the Highest level of players the most without really affecting low/middle skill players much :Change the survivor movement model to take up as much space when moving as the killer.
Note this is not to be confused with damge hitbox model. This change would "delete" the mechanic of running around a pallet more than twice on any pallet loop. This would also greatly reduce the ability to chain "resources" without getting hit.
This would have some interesting interactions:
1) No more "fat shaming" the killer
2) Playing killer and survivor would be more seamless as both now "loop" the same and there is no muscle memory difference.
3) You could make loops more favorable for low/middle skill players and at the same time you are hard limiting how well the very best players can move. All loops could be hard limited to favor low players and still be servicable by veterans.
4) It would shift skill as survivor into forced reading of how the killer is doing mind games and away from : how much better can you hug terrain walls than the killer.
5) Most importantly you can "normalize" chase times.
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You're underestimating your own ability. The fact that you even talk about specific layouts involving three tiles and how they connect already puts you at least above the average DbD player.
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i would say that vast majority of maps are nearly as survivor-sided as fracture cowshed. like difference between cowshed and other maps is that cowshed for example has every single loop that is safe, 100% of them. like 20/20 pallets force the killer to kick them if the survivor is good. its so hard to make mistake on an 100% fully safe map that the practical only hits that survivor will get from this map is being bunched up in corner and the killer kicking a pallet in the corner and hits at hooks(camping). that is why you can do 3 minute chases on the map.
with other maps, its not 100%. its not 20/20. its more like.... 14/20 but its not really better because you still have to chase the survivor through 60% of the map that is safe. the maps being unsafe and supposedly killer favored are huge outliers. most of the maps end up being indoor maps and to nobody surprise... that is largely because classic tileset are not able to spawn on indoor maps... like jungle gym do not exist on midwich elementary school. they don't exist on old Hawkins. they don't exist lery and than the few indoor maps that are more killer-sided end up being maps that either have too few pallets like shelter wood is outdoor map that lacks total pallet resources even though most of pallet resources that exist are generally pretty strong for survivor. Dead dog saloon is maybe single outlier where it has a lot of pallets but most of the pallets are short junk loops. in term of maps the unsafe maps are outliers while safe maps are vast majority.
Remember this is not some random low skill baddie getting juiced. This is a veteran streamer with approximately 9k hours.
This is going to sound very egotistical but it really is a low skill baddie getting juiced. With trapper and most m1 killer that have ineffective powers, there is no difference between being 9k hours and being 900 hours on killer. The m1 killers lack killer skill expression. The only skill expression the killer is their ability so if their ability sucks, it does not matter whose playing the killer. The only skill that matters is the survivor skill at that point. the survivor has to play bad for their killer chase to be short.
for killer skill to mean anything, the killer power has to exceptionally versatile and applicable in every situation all the time with high rewards. trapper has high rewards, instant down for a trap, but the application of his traps are limited in nature. long time to setup making them hard to use in chase, you need to be next to the survivor to get instant down, otherwise its just an injure, easy to spot making them not applicable in many situations. 9000 hours on killer has little meaning. what has meaning is 9000 hours is nurse. that has meaning. why? Because her power is exceptionally versatile and applicable in all situations and it has high rewards(ignoring all window/pallet design and health-state design) for being good at blinks.
what does trapper have to work with? 10% pallet break speed.
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"I would say that vast majority of maps are nearly as survivor-sided as fracture cowshed."
I would agree with you 100%. Another streamer, Truetalent, has pressed the opinion for some time now that most of the pallets in DBD remove the skill away from the killer in a chase. And while this is not true for all killers it is true for most of them. If you look at most of the maps we play on you will find that most of the pallets are "safe".
Overall we have pretty much removed the majority of pallets that can be easily mind gamed. Once upon a time the ratio of safe to unsafe pallets was closer to like 50/50. One of the worst things that has happened over time is that we just remove the ability of killers to deal with these pallets unless they are playing a killer that can basically ignore them : Nurse, Blight, PH, Nemesis, etc.
It is no surprise that we see so many people playing those killers in high numbers. If we made Deja Vu the best survivor perk in the game it would literally be no surprise if we saw 75% of the top players immediately start using it.
"With trapper and most m1 killer that have ineffective powers, there is no difference between being 9k hours and being 900 hours on killer."
You have the right idea but your expression is not correct. If we took some 900 hour killer and made them play against Hens (the second survivor in the video) I think he could probably last 60-90 seconds longer on average than he did against Otz.
The idea is : Safe pallets remove the ability for most killers to exert pressure in a chase. But even with the disadvantage of playing trapper with no traps - Otz still has quite a few tricks up his sleeve. There are subtle differences you will notice with different streamers in how they move their camera. CoconutRTS for example has an amazing camera flick around tiles that is always very clean/neat/precise. In the case where someone is doing something "not allowed" that I am not even allowed to properly mention Otz's camera movement is far more "readable". You will know what I mean by this if you are familiar with how people are doing things that are against the rules.
You don't camera flicks with 900 hours of play. With that number of hour count you don't think things like : I'm going to push him to X direction and then break the pallet. You don't have the same level of geometry understanding of the tiles that you have with 3000 hours. You might be thinking I want them on this side of the pallet or that side but you don't really have a "soft count" of bloodlust in your head that you do with 3000 hours of play.
"what has meaning is 9000 hours is nurse"
I don't think that will be true forever.
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Otz still has quite a few tricks up his sleeve. There are subtle differences you will notice with different streamers in how they move their camera. CoconutRTS for example has an amazing camera flick around tiles that is always very clean/neat/precise. In the case where someone is doing something "not allowed" that I am not even allowed to properly mention Otz's camera movement is far more "readable". You will know what I mean by this if you are familiar with how people are doing things that are against the rules.
your talking about red glow mindgames. there are different reasons to why certain killer don't utilize this against the survivor. for example in tru3 cases, he doesn't have complicated camera movement because there is lack of pay-off for using it. against very experienced loopers, there is more risk to using red glow mind games because the killer cannot hear survivors in a chase clearly above chase music, so if a killer tries confuse the survivor for what direction they're going, the survivor can just leave loop in many instances and avoid red glow mindgame. This is largely reason why survivor's Iron will perk was strong but this off-topic. there is also the case that... a lot of loops do not provide many places to red glow mindgame because you can see the killer through the walls.
in some killer cases, they do not use it because it does not work against everyone. the logic is, why learn a gameplay mechanic that only works against worse players? you can use this logic with killer powers as well.
Of course, I don't agree with this idea because majority of survivor are not exceptionally loopers so just because it does not work against everyone does not mean it is not useful.
In Otz case, I believe it because he is primarily killer main. red glow is one of those gameplay mechanics where you need to play survivor at high-level to understand how to use red glow mindgames. ConconutRTS is pretty good at survivor so his experience with survivor translates into better killer play for M1. Otz lacks the survivor experience so it makes more difficult for him to use red glow mindgames as you will not know what to look for as killer. In otz case, I will say his lack red glow mindgames comes from survivor inexperience.
as for what to look for in detail? we'll just skip that part but like I said in previous paragraph, red glow mindgames are not applicable everywhere and not that rewarding in the grand scheme of a dbd match so in term of performance, the outcome of 900 hour killer is not that much different than 9000 hour killer. killers have low skill-floor but not very high skill-ceiling because their skill-expression is quite low in comparison to the survivor.
Overall we have pretty much removed the majority of pallets that can be easily mind gamed. Once upon a time the ratio of safe to unsafe pallets was closer to like 50/50.
Not true. the maps in 2017 in term of pallets are the same or stronger. Like Cowshed hasn't changed. you can play cowshed in 2018 and play cowshed in 2022 and the pallets are the same. If anything map were stronger before since there used to be infinity windows in older dbd and it used to apply in normal loops. Like if you played cow loop in old farm maps, it used to be 2 windows one at each side instead of a window and a pallet and back then, the concept of entity blocking and bloodlust did not exist. players just called them infinities. Just to use that cowshed map for example, the building in had windows in the barn and now a days, you can just break the breakable wall on both sides to reduce the strength of those windows... but back than, breakable did not exist, so in certain positions you just auto-looped the killer for free.
Picture the garden of joy right window on bottom floor. that was on every single map. conclusively, map were way stronger in old dbd.
One of the worst things that has happened over time is that we just remove the ability of killers to deal with these pallets unless they are playing a killer that can basically ignore them : Nurse, Blight, PH, Nemesis, etc.
I don't m1 trapper with traps was ever viable on most maps. You are right that strong pallets divide the weaker killers from stronger killers among many other problems.
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Not when the Killer has Franklin's Demise. Then your map isn't safe at all.
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"the maps in 2017 in term of pallets are the same or stronger. Like Cowshed hasn't changed. you can play cowshed in 2018 and play cowshed in 2022 and the pallets are the same. If anything map were stronger before since there used to be infinity windows in older dbd and it used to apply in normal loops"
I think you have forgotten that we used to have a lot more unsafe pallets on all maps (as well as a lot more pallets in general). It was literally a design change in ideology that happened shortly after the game was changed from "hide and go seek" to "chase me". That was also the period of "super bloodlust" which most survivors absolutely hated. Take a look at early bloodlust and you will see some of the reasons why. In short you got real fast real quick.
Before patch 2.0 : Nerf: disabled Bloodlust Accumulation when revving the Chainsaw as The Hillbilly
Before patch 1.8 : Nerf: increased the Tier-thresholds from 12/24/36 seconds to 15/30/45 seconds
Before patch 1.7: Nerf: disabled Bloodlust Accumulation when in Evil Within I as The Shape
"red glow mindgames are not applicable everywhere and not that rewarding in the grand scheme of a dbd match"
This is true but it would be a lot less true if everyone played "like the devs do at the office" with all files in factory settings. Remember when we had the stretched res problem? If you think along those lines you will know what I am talking about because there is still a bigger issue plaguing the game. I would post a picture of a red light in an unusual circumstance but the mods will call that "advertising cheating". To make a long story short people do things they should not to get advantages they should not have - and that is why red light games are not very effective.
If we had killers who didn't have red lights most of the time - that would be horrifying to survivors. They did some internal tests with turning the lights off and it absolutely wrecks people. Honestly I'd love to see M1 killers not have a red light in chases. What defines a M1 killer? Any killer that doesn't have a "I will instantly break or ignore that pallet power". For example that would make Myers an M1 and dredge not be an M1 killer.
Also as a clarification when he uses red light moves True looks more like coco than Otz.
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